#Fantasy Game Debate
22 messages in this thread
DungeonMaster is a great game because of the environment that it puts you in
– very realistic. However, it's got NO plot whatsoever.
Ultima IV is more like reading a really good book – great plot, OK graphics
and good music, but a fantastic plot, and a brilliant morality. DungeonMaster
also has no morality whatsoever.
We won't even talk about Bard's Tale. OK graphics, OK sound, no plot, no
environment – numbers game, no morality, not much of anything, in fact.
Henry,
We have all heard you flog poor Bard's Tale. Give it up. Some of *like*
mindless adventure games like that!!
Anyhow, I heard from a good source that DungeonMaster might be appearing
in a few (i.e. three or so) weeks. Don't hold your breath but it *might* be
the real thing!
KEn
Ken, have you played the Amiga Bards Tale II? If you have, have you tried
exiting the "add member" option of the main menu with less than 7 party
members? Mine won't let me unless I have 7 members in the party.
-allen
Allen,
It seems like I didn't have a problem with six members when I first started
BTII. Since then, I've always loaded a Red Dragon first, so haven't noticed.
I'll try it tonight.
Lee
Allen,
I tried it last night with any number of members from one to six, and was able
to exit by clicking on the CANCEL button every time.
Lee
Thanks Lee. Damn strange that the two copies I've tried in my machine have
that problem.
-allen
Actually the classic example (if not the parent) of role playing games is DnD.
The primary differences between Dungeon Master and U4 is that in U4 there is
"verbal" interaction between the player and the characters encountered. Also in
U4 there is a factor referred to in Dnd as alignment (ala morality level).
Only one morality choice is allowed in U4 while adventures can be successfully
completed with DnD as long as you stick to your alignment. There is a specified
goal in Dungeon Master and some respectable puzzles. I seem to remember you
asking for help on one or two on the ST version. As to the plot aspect in U4 I
don't see anything beyond an attempt at achievement of a goal. As a rule where
you find "plot" you find sub-plot. Anything else is just getting from here to
there.
There are puzzles in DungeonMaster but they are similar – pressure plate,
switch, weapon, and "item in slot" puzzles and various combinations through
about 11 levels (was it 11 or 13, can't remember.)
As far as PLOT goes, you know the ultimate goal in Ultima IV and what to
accomplish to get there. That's what "PLOT" is in a game, IMHO. In
DungeonMaster there is a very badly written story (in some very crude docs) and
not much else to grab a handle on.
Eh. The "plot" of Ultima is the same as all of the previous Ultimas. There
were more frills added, thats all. (Still, it was an enjoyable game…)
One of the neatest plot features I would have liked in Ultima IV (and I had
heard a rumor about it, but it turned out to be untrue) would have been for one
of your companions to betray you. Now *that* would have been an interesting
sub-plot. As it was, all that loyalty and goodness and never do ANYTHING wrong
etc. etc. was frankly sickeningly sweet. Sort of like the Smurfs. <snicker>
–>Steve Bennett
I agree – the betrayal idea sounds pretty neat. There are even neater things
in Ultima V – the nonplayer characters move and walk around in the game, have
jobs, etc. The text parser is much better. There is an underworld.
I don't think that the "morality" was sickeningly sweet. Some of the choices
were hard choices, as the opening of the game (which, I think, quite frankly,
is brilliant) shows.
I personally want a game that allows me to be "bad". But it doesn't bother
me that I won't finish a game where I am "bad" – at some point I will have to
pay the price.
Henry,
I played Ultima II and III on my Atari 8 bit and enjoyed them. I was
looking forward to IV on the Amiga. Now I'm not too sure. I don't think I'd be
too happy with a game that attempts to force its version of morality on me.
The best ones are the ones that allow you to 'play' any type of person, but
restrict your options according to type. Having played RPG games (the real
ones, where anything goes) rewards for 'staying in character' made for some
very interesting games. After all, no one expects the Klanfgh the Inedible,
Scourge of the Universe and Environs, Eater of Babies and Malignancy Incarnate
to be allowed membership in the Mr. Rogers School of Niceness.
The restrictions placed by the necessity of a 'hard' envoirment such as
those found in computer RPG make forcing behaviour the easy way out. The best
game would be one where you had complete freedom of choosing your actions with
the game choices being based on past actions. You might start out trying to
save your local kingdom and wind up helping the baddies take over.
I personaly would like to see a game that treat 'morality' in a realistic
fashion. It would offer choices based on what the character could reasonably
do based on his moral set, with 'extreme' choices changing that morality.
While not as 'real' as the more free-flowing type of games, it would be a
natural for the envoirment.
Doug
You can pretty much ignore the morality. It quickly breaks down into a set of
do this/don't do this decisions and you can get down to the *real* game which
is exploration and puzzle solving, like most other RPGs. It's actually a very
good game in those regards.
–>Steve Bennett
Wizardry IV (available only on Apple) allows you to play the evil (chaotic)
wizard Werdna. You must battle your way from the bottom of a 10 level puzzle
dungeon fighting against the best parties of people who played the other 3
Wizardrys. Instead of battling monsters you summon them to aid you.
I have heard alot of good things about Wizardry – unfortunately the box makes
the games look positively horrid.
However I will certainly keep an open mind, should it ever arrive for the
Amiga.
The thing to remember with Wizardry is that it's basically ancient computer RPG
technology. It plays very similarly to Bard's Tale but with more puzzle
solving and less hack and slash. Also, it's not at all as graphically
oriented. I'm afraid if Wizardry *was* ported to the Amiga, it would need an
incredible amount of graphical additions to seriously compete. Otherwise, it's
going to look relatively bland.
–>Steve Bennett
Robert Woodhead has claimed that he's working on a 16 bit system that is far
superior to anything else yet, including FTL's system. It's being designed
from the ground up on the 16 bits, according to him.
Henry,
It would be nice if it were true. But that information's from a man who
thought his "enhanced" versions of Wizardry I and II for MS-DOS would work in
EGA. They don't. And they even REMOVED the ability to set the colors of the
dungeon from anything other than white on black. Very attractive.
Lee
Yeah, but knowing Woodhead, it's gonna be for the IBM and the Mac, and us Amiga
users will *still* never see any Sir Tech stuff…
–>Steve Bennett
Actually, the opening of the game was rather predictable. After going through
it the first time, I found it absolutely no problem to go through it again and
always end up with the exact character I wanted. I want a game that allows me
to be "bad" or good or selfish or greedy or whatever, and which ends
differently depending on what the player did. Better yet, one which offers a
selection of different characters and goals for those characters ranging from
Awful Good to Nasty and Evil. And to accomplish those goals you need to stick
to the character's personality. In other words, *Role* playing, instead of,
basically, hack & slash & puzzles.
–>Steve Bennett
I didn't think that the opening was predictable at all. The story-line about
you walking near the Stonehenge in England, the gypsy's tent, and the cards,
and all the rest was excellent. The writing and ideas were far better there
than in anything else that I can remember – any other game. Including
DungeonMaster, which, though an excellent game, has a non-existant plot and an
unacceptable, horribly-written story in the book that supposedly sets up the
scene for the game.
Origin deserves alot of credit – they can set up a world with the Ultima
series, with the trinkets, the manuals, and the storylines, better than anyone
else except Infocom.
I felt that Ultima IV was alot more than hack and slash and puzzles, but we
have already disagreed there.
Of course. Just about every Computer RPG out there is roughly based on D&D,
which was the grandfather of RPGs (even if it wasn't and still isn't
perfect…). Only in the past few years have Computer RPGs moved into the
world of true *Role* playing as opposed to Hack and Slash. But they still have
a looong ways to go. (And I wish I had the time to implement even 1/10th of my
ideas for a computer RPG, to fill that wide open field…)
–>Steve Bennett