CGFonts and Such
29 messages in this thread
Jim:
Whew! L'see… About MIfont and Type 1 fonts: MIfont converts Mac screen
fonts so you can create a document with PPage. It also "decompresses" any
Type 1 laser printer font and renames it in such a way that the font will
be downloaded automatically BY PPage when you use it's equivelent screen
font in your page. It doesn't convert Type 1 fonts into CGFonts: that's
something we were thinking of doing but we were unable to wrangle the
CGFont format from either Gold Disk or CompuGraphic. In any case, I'm
fairly sure it would be illegal: Type 1 fonts are copyrightable and
converting them into a different language format like CG (PostScript fonts
and CG fonts are both considered "programs" by the way) would infringe on
the Type 1 creator's copyright (and I doubt CompuGraphic would be too happy
either). About CG PostScript fonts: the PostScript fonts that are generated
by CreateFont are what are known as Type 3 fonts. Type 3 fonts do NOT
contain Adobe's hints. We have been told by Gold Disk that their CG fonts
do contain "hints" of their own, but after a fair bit of analysis, I can
only conclude that they're mistaken about that. I beleive the hints in the
CG fonts are used when PPage actually draws the characters on the screen,
but they're not put into the actual PostScript fonts made by CreateFont
(silly, really, since "hints" were orginally developed to improve laser
printer output…). Anyway, it's not really possible to just convert CG
PostScript fonts into Type 1 fonts for the sake of the Type 1's hint
features: "hints" have to be added by a font's designer, just like deciding
how the character will look or how many kerning pairs to add. Just because
a font is "Type 1" doesn't mean there are hints in it: they're only there
if they're put there. About problems with CG PostScript fonts: I'm not
surprised. I found a bug in one of their Optima fonts: somewhere, in their
maze of Optima support files, they spelled "Optima" wrong and it comes out
Courier when you print
[ MORE ]
Compugraphic will gladly give information about their font format, except
they want about $20,000 for the right for you to distribute anything that
uses that knowledge…
John:
I know. We went through alot of confusing wrangling trying to get hold of
the CG font format. First Gold Disk said that they had no problem but that
we should check with CG. Then CG said that they had no problem but we
should check with Gold Disk. Finally, it came down to CG telling us that we
would have to pay a large fee for the CG format or co-op with Gold Disk and
get it from them. Naturally, Gold Disk (being the closed loop that they
are) decided against that. To be honest, I think it's kind of dumb for
anybody to be involved with CG fonts in the first place. They're
unnecessarily bulky, confusing and don't contain the Type 1 "hints". Why
bother?, is what I say. (From Gold Disk's point of view, they obviously
stood to make a lot of money by introducing CG fonts. But I think it's only
harmed the DTP community in the long run rather than helped it.) What the
Amiga really needs is direct Adobe support, like the Mac, and there's no
way that's going to happen (trust me). So I guess the Amiga is destined to
rely on conversion software if it expects to keep up to the Mac, or even
IBM, as far as DTP goes. But without direct PostScript support in the OS, I
dunno'… So, how's things in InterchangeLand? (Bought a copy way back when
I was into animation; very good software!)
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
Gary
I think I'd agree with you there … PostScript fonts are almost the de
facto standard now, mainly because their technology has been publicly
available for some time (Type-3 fonts for a very long time, Type-1's since
Adobe were forced to publish the standard).
I can't understand AGFA's reluctance to make the info more widely
available, and in the end I suspect that they will lose their market share
more and more. I am also surprised that the same thing has not happened to
them as happened to Adobe over Type-1 fonts (although I suppose AGFA would
argue that their font standard _is_ available … it just costs a lot)
I wonder why you say that the Amiga will never have Adobe font support …
I think that it will come, and it will be sooner rather than later.
As for Compugraphic fonts not having "hints" … the Compugraphic
Intellifont standard does have hinting.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Mike:
I don't think you can quote me on this, but a couple of well-placed
connections at Adobe have told us point blank that Adobe has the lowest of
opinions concerning C= and that it is offical Adobe policy to have nothing
to do with C= or the Amiga (it's also funny to note that ALOT of Adobe
employees actually use Amiga's at home and were quite thrilled when they
heard about our software…go figure) Also, I can't say for sure if CG's
Intellifont's actually support Type 1 hinting, but I doubt it. I know they
have their own hinting formulas but the thing about Type 1 hinting is that
the hint commands are actually built into the PostScript printers
themselves, whereas the CG hinting must be included with each downloadable
font. You see, Adobe actually built secret commands into the PostScript
interpreter so all they have to do is wham off the command, let's say,
"hstem" in their Type 1 fonts and the printer takes care of the rest. The
CG fonts, to perform a similar "hstem" function, would have to include the
hstem code in the font itself. But you've written a Type 1 disassembler so
you probably already know this. I think the bottom line is that Adobe has
and will always have the edge as long as they're the ones who a) developed
PostScript and b) created the PostScript interpreter (who knows what other
goodies are built into the interpreters their not telling us about?)
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
Gary
I hadn't realised that Adobe felt so badly about C=. I suspect that that is
Commodore's own fault (again!) … they really do not know how to present
themselves properly, and until they do, will be destined forever to be
perceived by the non-Commodore users as a games-machine manufacturer.
Yes, I understand the Type-1 hinting/Flex system … and, as you say, the
mechanism is integral to the interpreter, although you have to set up the
parameters yourself and, with Flex, need to set up subroutines etc. My
comment on CG hinting comes from some stuff in the Hewlett-Packard PCL/HPGL
reference … it talks about the FAIS document, which describes how to
format a typeface for processing using the AGFA CG Intellifont Scaling
Technology, which describes un-hinted outlines. It says:
`un-hinted outlines do not produce as high quality output as those which
are hinted or contain Intellifont scaling intelligence. Hinted Intellifont
scalable outlines are automatically adjusted during scaling to produce the
highest quality output.'
I took from this that hinting was integral to the Intellifont engine.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Mike:
Unfortunately, I know very little about the Intellifont format outside it's
use with Gold Disk's products. I KNOW that the hinting is not passed along
into the Type 3 PostScript fonts you create using CreateFont and this is
what seems silly to me: to use an imbedded hinting technology for screen
display but not for print out (where you'd really need it the most!). That
CG hinting might be incorporated into printers (that seems to be what you
're saying): like I said, I don't know. I'd be interested in learning more
though (hard font information is as difficult to come by as a cop when you
need one, on the Amiga anyway…) Talk to you soon.
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
CG hints are passed to ProPage and PageStream by the embedded CG routines
(which are builtin to the programs.) Basically, the program says 'give me
12 point Times' and the routines supply it. Then it gets cached until
needed again. Without caching, ProPage and PgS must continually access th
the CG routines, which must continually access the font data. Now
CreateFont type programs don't have those wonderful CG routines built into
them, they just have the font data to play with. Thus they can only create
an unhinted outline. It should be possible to make a Type 1 out of it, but
it wouldn't have hints so it doesn't matter.
Michael Loader
Gary,
I read the description of MIfont in the Amazing Comuter Guide to Amiga
products and I am confused about one thing. If someone had a font in Mac
format, say from AFM, would Mifont only convert the SCREEN font or the
whole thing. That is, would it make a downloadable font–the sort that a
postscript interpreter could use?
Next, it mentions in there that you folks sell screen fonts. Do you have
a catalog? How much? How are they used. The line (p31) is:
"Also, the Adobe Screenfont Library is available…"
What are the terms? Could these be converted BACK to mac format? Thanks.
Jim:
Traditionally, Mac PostScript fonts come in 3 parts: the printer (or
downloadable) font, the AFM file (which contains all the spacing and
kerning information) and the screen representation (a bitmap font in a set
number of point sizes). MIfont will convert the screen font into a standard
Amiga bitmap font/PPage .metric file and it will also convert the printer
font into a downloadable ASCII PostScript font that PPage can download for
you (really all it does with the printer fonts is convert any binary in the
font file into ASCII hex, since PostScript interpreters can process ASCII
ONLY). It doesn't convert anything BACK to Mac format (what's the point?).
Essentially, the whole system was designed to allow people to use all of
the parts that make up a Mac PostScript font, in PPage. And yes, we sell
screen fonts. We've contacted Adobe and have obtained their permission (I'm
not sure we needed to, but just in case) to put the screen bitmap versions
of all their fonts, still in their Mac files, on Amiga disks. We're
basically offering this as a service to people who are finding it
impossible to get the Mac files on to their Amigas. The Library has 629
fonts in it so far, spread across 20 disks, and sells for $120 US (about $6
a disk). This does NOT include the printer fonts; you have to buy those
(that's how font vendor's, like Adobe and Bitstream and Image Club, etc.,
make their money). You can still use the bitmap fonts by themselves,
though. If you work with an output service, they'll no doubt have the
printer fonts, so all you do is make up a PostScript file with the screen
fonts and send it to them and have them print it out. It's a very
cost-effective way of maintaining a potentially HUGE font library.
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
That screen font library is very interesting, Gary. Is it that you don't
need the metric font if you have the screen font? I guess you have to do
all the proofing on the screen, of course.
Does Adobe have a catalog of those fonts? Would someone order with
reference to that catalog or just go with the font name?
As in our most recent job, there are times when you may want to use a font
that you may never again use. That's when this approach makes a lot of
sense—assuming it works well enough so that you don't need multiple trips
to the service agency.
Jim:
Adobe does publish a type catalog (called the Adobe Type Guide) for about
$20 US which shows characters sets of all it's fonts. It's a good deal and
you can order it direct from them. We also have a catalog showing the name
of each font in it's own face and we mail it out free with our information
packages. About using MIfont: you've got it. Having over 600 fonts online,
all the time, has really given us alot of freedom to experiment and choose
the right face for the job. You're right, though; proofing is a problem
sometimes and if a job should require extensive proofing and very fine
tuning on screen, it's probably best to try to hunt down the CG equivilent.
However, we've produced all our artwork (manuals, lables, ads, etc.) using
just our fonts and PPage and have had no trouble at all. You should get the
demo (MIFONT.LZH) and try it out if you want a clearer idea of what all
this is about.
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
Gary
The main reason why Intellifont hinting isn't passed to Type-3 fonts is
that Type-3 fonts do not support hinting. In theory, there is no reason why
a conversion shouldn't be made to Type-1 format … but that assumes that
Intellifonts use the same basic graphics operators as Type-1 and that the
hinting is done on the same basic concepts.
It is my understanding that Intellifont hinting is undertaken in the
Intellifont engine, which is incorporated into printers and into PStream
and ProPage.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Mike:
Yup, that's what I thought. Kind of an elaborate procedure to go through
just for a nice looking 72-point screen font, don't you think?
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
As I'm sure you've discovered, Gold Disk's support of CG fonts was done in
collusion with Commodore. Gold Disk is supposed to be the only place you
can get CG fonts for the Amiga. CBM has never really released anything
that works with CG fonts, but some bitmaps are included in 2.0, and I';ve
heard about a tool that can make screen fonts from outlines… of course,
there's no interesting programmer's interface to getting the outlines,
either. So Type 1 it is! I'd like to expand InterFont to use thyem,
someday. For this reason, I look forward to your future products.
John:
The whole Gold Disk/CompuGraphic/Commodore thing was kind of shady: it's
hard to say what went on. Before WB 2.0 made it's (opinion: "premature")
entrance, there was alot of talk about an OS-based scalable font system
(like ATM, I guess), but then I heard that CG told Commodore to hit the
road and that left Gold Disk to hawk fonts for itself and now the only
thing you've got in WB 2.0 is the ability to use proportional fonts in the
WorkBench (Wheeee! (Sorry, I'm not too thrilled with WB 2.0, as you might
have guessed…)). I would have to say that the most logical route for any
system to take is the direct support for Type 1 fonts but it'd be hard for
C= to come out and say "Look, we have a system for handling scalable fonts
but Adobe doesn't like us so you'll have to port your Mac or IBM Type 1
fonts over first!" I mean, it doesn't look good, right? Personally, I hope
some sort of deal with CG is NOT struck with C=; imagine the confusion (as
well as the end-user cost) in having to support all the different font
formats! What a headache! One of the things that we're working towards is
being able to create a program or series of programs that integrates Mac OR
IBM Type 1 fonts in such a way that they can be used by a variety of
products. However, as I'm sure you're well aware, so much of the problem
with writing conversion software lies in the individual short-comings found
in the various programs and file-formats you support. Trying to cut down
the confusion while juggling so many "standards". Yeeeesh! Almost enough to
make you go and settle for a Mac Classic sometimes.
Talk to you soon.
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
As with most things, it seems the only possibility for getting something
done involves ignoring Commodore, and cursing ourselves for believing
they'd even come up with something adequate… I think there's room for a
library that provides scaled fonts and outlines for any application, using
Type 1. One limitation: the Amiga bitmap font format can't handle big
fonts. Geeze, as bad as the early Mac… So you'd need to create a new
bitmap font standard, probably, then work up a way to give programmers a
way to interface to it so it could work on any screen type, then document
it all and start convincing companies to pay you to use the technology.
Thanks, CBM.
John–
This replies to both yours and Gary's comments:
If there was some sort of CBM-ATM utility, or if it was added to the
operating system (I believe that this could be done very quickly, even
without Adobe's permission – witness the PD utility POST, or PageStream
2.x), it would not be too much further to imagine CBM licensing CrossDos as
part of the operating system (not a bad idea, even without the font stuff).
All you'd have to do is to insert an Adobe IBM format font disk, press the
right buttons on the CBM-ATM installer, and away you go…
As for large fonts: what is the limit, anyway? The Masterfont
collection has some pretty large suckers in it; if you're talking 600 point
fonts, it would be a limitation that I could easily learn to live with!!
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan:
Hey, don't say that too loud: I'm trying to sell font conversion software
over here!! 🙂
Gary
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
As I understand it, the total size of the bitmap that contains all
thecharacters of an Amiga bitmap font must not exceed the maximum size of
the bitmaps that the graphics library can handle. In practice, this
prevents fonts from going beyond a certain size (height), depending on the
number of characters you define in the font. The Masterpiece fonts get
around this by only including upper-case in a given large font. To deal
with both upper and lower-case letters, or in the worst case of a font that
includes at least 256 defined characters, you can easily bump against this
limit. We might ask Betty Clay to jump in on this conversation, I know
she's a whiz at fonts. I can't remember the details and numbers at this
point.
John,
At the time I was working out the font structure, no one had even thought
of making fonts that big! I can see how it would work, but I don't know
what the limit would be. I do know that it takes a LOT of space to define
a large font, since you not only have to describe the characters
themselves, but you also have to have the tables for spacing, kerning, etc.
Interesting idea. I may start studying fonts again.
Betty
Betty:
Just thought I'd jump in here and let you know that I used an article you
wrote for Transactor (Issue #1, actually) as my Amiga bitmap font BIBLE
when I developed my MIfont program. After wading through mountains of
technobabble (aka ROM Kernal Manuals), I discovered your article told me
eveything I needed to know, and in plain English to boot! Here's to you!
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
Gary,
Thanks so much. Speaking plain English is an absolute must when one
teaches in junior high schools – and I did that for over 30 years. Writing
that article was great fun, and I did love the Transactor.
Betty
Oh, I know *some* people were trying to make fonts that big… I think the
Calligrapher manual talks about the limit.
I know that Calligrapher continually cautions that the fonts use large
amounts of memory and that one should keep the number of characters to a
minimum, but I don't recall any maximum that is allowable.
Gee, even the nnnn.font files can get pretty big if you have lots of styles
and sizes of a font.
Betty
No, Gold Disk doesn't have a proprietary CG license for the Amiga.
SoftLogik also has a license to sell them, but has chosen not to. It
provides 10 CG fonts with PgS for non-PostScript users. Instead Soft-Logik
will be selling 600 Type 1 fonts in Amiga format.
Michael Loader
Michael:
Thanks for the input on the CG fonts thing. If you querie either Gold Disk
or CompuGraphic, you can get into quite a run-around, especially if you're
looking for specifics. As far as the Type 1's that Soft-Logik is selling:
we were approached by them as they wanted to know if our software would be
usable with their fonts and if so, they would mention us with the
documentation included with the fonts. BTW, the fonts in question basically
comprise the Image Club library and they're not in Amiga format ("Amiga
format" Type 1's?); they're actually IBM format Type 1's, but on Amiga
formatted disks. Just thought I should clarify that (s'funny that 99% of
the Type 1 fonts on the planet were created on the Mac, but that IBM Type 1
fonts seem to be becoming the "Amiga" standard format for Type 1's.
Strange, eh?)
Gary.
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
Gary, you're right about the hints. CG fonts can only print hinted to
non-PostScript printers. That's why the CG fonts look so good on dot matrix
printers compared to unhinted outline fonts like the old PgS font format.
The CG fonts used by ProPage and PageStream are identical (except that you
only get 2 weights with ProPage.) Yes, CreateFont can only create Type 3
fonts. PageStream uses the same type of system to print CG fonts to a
PostScript printer. The reason that CreateFont cannot create hinted fonts
is due to AGFA, not Gold Disk.
Michael Loader