Voicemail, etc for AMI ?
33 messages in this thread
BBS—
I think that most Amigans realize that certain things will cost more on
the Amiga; but, on the other hand, who is going to spend $750 for the combo
that's being discussed ($750 being the price that I would wildly guess
would be the going rate for an Amiga version of this combo)? For some
people, it makes more sense to dig up a Bridgeboard so they can use the PC
side simply as an "interface".
I don't have a Computer Shopper handy, but I would guess that the PC
price for a 9600FAX/2400MODEM external combo would be under $250–probably
a lot less. All I was saying was, why couldn't someone do some software to
drive the thing (since, being external, its kind of a generic device)?
Assuming thats what ClickFAX is, we're looking at paying in the ballpark of
$200 for software to drive a faxmodem. This is a bit extreme, I think. If,
on the other hand, ClickFax was designed from the ground up, I fail to
understand why. Why not make a purchasing arrangement with Zoom, or
someone else? Since BBS is a real life example of some the issues being
discussed here, what do you guys think of my opinions/conjectures ? Just
asking…
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan, you're paying less than $200, at ClickFAXes price of $449.95, we
(unfortunately) do not clear $200, selling direct.
ClickFAX originally was planned to go to retail with distributor and dealer
margins built in; the "list" price would have been about 650.00 for just
the fax+modem. We didn't do that, because we felt it would be too costly,
and we'd have priced ourselves out of the market.
I don't know what you know about ClickFAX, but the software is the result
of a long, long project to attempt to cover all the bases – ARexx, shell,
Mouse – in a comprehensive and Amiga-like manner.
Considering the market (or lack of it) for a fax modem on the Amiga, the
question of whether we will actually recover the invenstment in the product
is still unanswered, a very unfortunate situation.
We did not design the faxmodem, it's close to the same thing that goes for
a Mac, with the addition of some custom stuff so we can ID the modem
positively as the one we sold, and nuke anyone who is attempting to steal
the s/w and use it with a "std" modem that appears to be of the same type.
Copy protection, in a way.
Should voice mail appear for the Amiga from us, it would likely be a
separate product, usable with ClickFAX more by virtue of the ARexx
connection and macros. Note that I did NOT commit to anything, eh? Anyway,
we're talking custom hardware (not too complex) FCC approval (awful to
contemplate, extremely expensive in time and effort – only a "few thousand"
to actually do, assuming you pass (and we would)) and of couse the s/w to
drive it. You tell me what you think it could be marketed for? It can't be
cheap – there's no way. We're fair – too fair, I think sometimes, looking
at the prices the competition asks for their stuff – but we have a solid
record of being priced well if comparable things are available to look at.
We'll continue it, it's never been an accident.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben–
I see your point – that is, to use the faxmodem as a dongle, which is
legitimate in this case. You do have to concede, however, that it does
raise the price over what a software only solution would be. On the third
hand, however, your margins would be savaged by piracy.
I was playing devil's advocate, actually – I think its great that BBS is
doing a Faxmodem for the Amiga. Unfortunately, at $450, you've priced
yourselves out of my market, either at home or at work. You possibly could
have made up a smaller margin in volume. $250-$300 would be a middling to
high price for a PC external faxmodem, retail. I assume you guys are
either dealers or VARS for someone else's modem, getting it at wholesale
(anywhere from 25-50% off of mfg. suggested) so that leaves you with a
mighty healthy margin. Of course, take out overhead, advertising, software
R&D, support, (and yes, R&D for the "protection" chip in the Faxmodem…:]
), and that may no longer be as healthy a margin. Probably respectable in
any case.
Best of luck with it – I one is hung on thousands of Amigas – including
mine – in the near future…:]
Jonathan
– via Whap!
"$250.00 would be…"
Jonathan, we pay more than that for the modem.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
That's the dilemma– Do you go ahead with a product for the Amiga because
you know that the product is needed, and yours will be the only one… even
if it means that you'll be twice the retail of similar products for msdos
clones? Then the Amiga community gets up in arms (we're the same ones who
begged for the product, mind you) and complains about the price, pointing
to the low cost of similar clone machine products.
If you don't produce the product, you're asked why you're not supporting
the Amiga. Black Belt really can't win this one (voice-mail/fax/modem/)
unless somebody over at your place manages to add the capability to
ClickFax, without additional hardware/software development costs…
and that is unlikely.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
It's not unlikely – it's impossible.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Maybe you should rethink your marketing again. I will be purchasing a 9600
baud modem this year and I'm not interested in 2 modems or one that
operates at 2400/9600fax. I am beginning to see generic modems that are
both 9600 v.32 and fax which makes a lot more sense than your "protected"
system. I suggest you unbundle the modem and release the software as a
separate product that will work with most any fax modem and you might see
your sales increase dramatically. As it stands now, I am not a potential
customer for the reason stated above.
Thanks, Fred
We wish you luck, Fred. We'll not be changing our position in this matter
in the forseeablee future.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
RE: "Considering the market (or lack of it) for a fax modem on the Amiga,
the question of whether we will actually recover the invenstment in the
product is still unanswered, a very unfortunate situation."
I am among a growing number of Mac users who are shopping for a Mac
voice-mail solution. The three main entrants so far, TFLXvm, DoveFax+, and
PhonePro, have yet to sell themselves to the mainstream.
If your firm could get your product in the Mac market before the end of
this year, I think you have a good chance to get in on the bottom floor.
One thing is certain, the Mac community has ample funds and is more than
willing to pay a fair (or reasonably high <g>) price (I have up to $1,000
budgeted for this). Oh sure, we have a percentage of pirates, but it is far
less than what DOS struggles with (I suspect that's also true for Amiga).
Whichever product becomes the darling of the _informed_ Mac community
will doubtless sell tons. Mac users are just the kind of folks who will
quickly move to voice-mail/send-fac solutions. The Mac community is still
pretty tight, making it easy to gain the audience of the rather small group
of movers and shakers who call the shots for those who pay attention. Even
when a product does not gain the "darling" status, it almost always
receives very fair treatment in Mac media reviews, thus still selling quite
well if it's a sound product.
Please consider us, —GeM, a Mac'er since 1986
If CBM continues the way they have been, we may have no other choice but to
consider the Mac market.
You've finally got what passes for a real operating system (sys 7) and you
do have the 68xxx familiy in common with what we are doing now, so it would
be the least painful of cross platform moves.
However, as long as the Amiga market supports us (and it is doing so
currently with no problem) we will remain Amiga oriented.
I appreciate that you're looking for new blood; but we're not it – at
least, not yet.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben–
This is probably a stupid question… but shouldn't it be relatively easy
to develop a piece of hardware that utilizes the serial port on two
different 680xx machines, and then make separate software and minor
hardware changes to fit each format? I've always wondered why there wasn't
more hardware shared between the MAC and the Amiga. Does the Amigas custom
chips make it that hadware incompatible?
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael
Its the fundamental design difference that causes the problems. Have you
ever noticed that you can put as many disk controllers (same type or mix of
types) into an amiga as there are slots by just plugging them in? You want
22 serial ports? Just plug in three A2232 boards… no dip switches jumpers
or the like.
I am not that knowledgeable about Macs but I believe that you can only have
one disk controller… period. Things get much worse when you look at PCs.
You not only have to "turn yourself inside out" to install two (or more) of
about anything but you even find yourself against the "you can't get there
from here" syndrome when trying to install multiple options with TOTALLY
DIFFERENT functions.
CBM's autoconfiguration makes all plug in options more expensive than with
other systems (just for the extra circuitry alone) but at least one never
has to wonder if some other option has stolen the only vector that you
could have used.
An Amiga message processed by Whap!,
bill
It's not a stupid question.
The serial ports are not "on the 68xxx machines" in the sense you imply.
Serial ports, and the ways that serial ports must be used under a
particular operating system vary as widely as Playboy Bunnies and Bowery
Bums.
The Amiga OS is *extremely* nice in the way it handles serial operations –
and inthe way it handles multitasking. The Mac OS is just barely into the
beginning stages of multitasking – they've got it rigged so that it can be
nice for the user, but just awful for the developer.
And of course, not everyone has Mac sys 7; while everyone has Amiga 1.3 (or
we snub em :^). Amiga OS 2.x is truly a hot OS, but of course it's still
vapor for the vast majority of Amiga users. :^(
The sad truth is that the hardware environment (IE, what the serial port
actually "is") and the OS environment to a great extent determine exactly
how an application like a multitasking FAX system needs to work… and the
two systems I'm talking about here are really quite different.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben–
Thanks for the info. I guess that the Amiga and Mac similarity really do
end at the 680xx, and that system software and hardware "architecture" are
what and how peripherals will work.(?)
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael, some things – like image processing routines – could be ported no
sweat. because they only deal with data. When you get to hardware
manipulation, well, all I can say is "ouch".
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Hurray for Black Belt Systems…lets hope that CBM wakes up so we can
continue cheering.
Gee, thanks. :^)
RE: "If CBM continues the way they have been, we may have no other choice
but to consider the Mac market."
Ben,
An interesting platform debate is presently still going on in Consumer
Electronics Forum (GO CEFORUM if you don't have the pleasure of Navigator,
Whap!, TAPCIS, etcetera). I prefer platform discussions that originate and
develop in non-platform-specific forums, as fanaticism does not seem to
reign supreme.
One interesting assertion made by sysop Marc Wielage, a video expert
extraordinaire, is as follows:
"I do agree that the Amiga's multi-tasking is excellent. I just don't like
the Amiga software very much, and you gotta admit, Amiga sales have been
PLUMMETING over the last six months. –MFW"
Not being one to keep up with the Amiga heartbeat, I was not aware of
its sales slump, and I'm shocked. After all, Video magazine's endorsement
should have given it a shot in the arm, I'd think. Could Marc be wrong? If
so, please give me something I can cut and paste into that debate. [I have
no qualms in assisting the Amiga if what I offer is supportable.]
Applauding your platform loyalty (but with selfish regret <g>), —GeM
Amiga sales plummeting is news to everyone here… especially CBM, whose
stock has been steadily rising right along with the one month backorder of
Amiga 3000's.
RE: "Amiga sales plummeting is news to everyone here…"
Well, it's certainly common for those who elect to speak for everybody
to be the last to know <grin>. Anyway, I provided you (actually Ben, but
hey, this is public) with a direct quote from a sysop of Consumer
Electronics Forum. Marc is *usually* reasonably aware of sales trends among
most electronics items, but most especially video equipment. His statement
seemed to be taken as fact within that thread, "MAC vs PC vs Amiga." At
least, I didn't see a challenge from any Amiga participants.
I implore you to journey to CE Forum and educate them (assuming). If you
need further instructions, I'll be glad to help if I can.
Regards, —GeM
PS: Better not use the "Whapping from…" sign off in CE Forum (as well as
certain others). It seems to grate some folks there. Now, before you
(plural) get your temper up over that, allow me to say that my macro
sign-offs, such as "For what it's worth department," sometimes draw fire
<sigh>. Not certain I had to humble myself via that last sentence, but some
Amiga folks are pretty touchy <g>.
Jim:
Forget about covering your butt with statements like "Not certain I had to
humble myself via that last sentence…" It's not worth the keystrokes.
a) Marc being "*usually*" reasonably aware means nothing to me and isn't
exactly a testimonial to his credentials or qualification to speak
authoritatively regarding CBM's Amiga sales (which are at their highest
point EVER).
b) His statements about sales may have been taken as fact because know one
over there knows differently or CARES enough to find out the truth.
I appreciate your invitation to stop in at CE, but I'm afraid I'd be sorely
out of place. I am a business person who happens to use the Amiga in a
business enviornment… not heavily involved in entertainment, consumer
electronics, video or multimedia (at this point). And it is not my
interest to educate anyone about the Amiga. I participate here, only
because it teaches me more about my platform of choice and because once in
awhile I can even help someone who is crossing a bridge I have already
travelled. The exchange with you is only because you have taken the time
to enter here (an AmigaForum) and have posed opinions and questions that
were of interest. Keeping up with the couple of hundred messages I read
daily is taxing enough on my time (I KNOW you're aware of what that
entails, and I'm not nearly as proficient a typist as you!).
I implore YOU to suggest to those interested in the Amiga, (or misinformed
about the same), and who wish to learn more, to drop in here and say hello.
Ask a question, start a fight…whatever. They will be responded to in
kind, by folks here, who care enough to get involved in a discussion. Some
of it will be good, some it will be defensive, but all of it will be
informative.
As far as signatures on messages go, if someone is stupid enough to take
issue and/or offense with "whapping from the North Coast, that is their
problem, not mine… my signature identifies what means of communications
software I am using, and gives a hint as to my geographic location… and
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
that is exactly what I want people to know.
P.S. shoot… now you've got my interest up and I may just HAVE to stop by
CE <g>
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Jim…
I spoke to an old friend at CBM today. She has absolutely nothing to do
with marketing, sales, or anything like that. She is involved with some of
the technical development. In that position, she, like every other
employee, gets a good earload of what the sales are like.
At Commodore (I used to work for them) you always know about it when sales
are low, or substandard. Some heads tend to roll, you don't get items that
you need to complete projects as quickly as you usually do, and cutbacks
are announced in the silliest of places (no more throwing out half-sugar
packets in the coffee room!)
Anyways….I asked her to guage the basic company feeling of how sales have
been going within the last quarter or so, and what the attitude is. She was
very clear that the attitude of the company was one of the best she had
seen in a while. Salespeople are smiling on a regular basis, and sales are
described in the company as 'above normal to brisk'.
It's not conclusive, but certainly goes against the grain of your statement
about the current state of Amiga sales.
Here in Canada, Amiga sales are good.
Jim
– Whap! wuz here
I'm not aware of any sales slump, either… for whatever's worth, eh?
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Well, Ben, the thread may be winding down, but I don't think it's too
late to capture at least most of it. It's called ""MAC vs PC vs Amiga," and
it's in Section 12. There is another thread running called "Mac vs. the
PC," also in Section 12. I have yet to peek into the latter, but I have
Navigator set to grab some of it during my next session.
Happy Trails, —GeM
While Mr. Weilage may be a "video expert extraordinaire", he doesn't know
what he's talking about when it comes to Amiga sales. Amiga sales have
been extremely strong the last 6 months, so much so that the 3000 series is
now backordered nationally 30-60 days.
Allow me to recap the correspondence between you and I up to this
point, Steve. To cue your memory I'll first quote from your messages to me,
then comment.
RE: "In _my_ opinion, that statement is 100% correct when you replace the
word Amiga with the word Macintosh."
In response to this, I humbled myself somewhat.
RE: "You pointed out rather blantantly that you felt Amiga users are "folks
who can't or won't pay to go first class". That deserves a response. This
is the AmigaForums, the vast majority of folks here do not consider the Mac
"first class". "…pouncing on visitors" is not the case here. Just a
response to being called second class."
I humbled myself in a response to that also, even though others did not
see my message as an attack at all, much less _blatant_. Did you not notice
that some of your colleagues even/actually jumped to my defense?
Now you jump in between Ben and I and say, "While Mr. Weilage may be a
"video expert extraordinaire", he doesn't know what he's talking about when
it comes to Amiga sales." My response is, Can you support that statement
with anything beyond an instantaneous reaction to the words I quoted from
Marc? Do you know Marc? Know more about him? Or, by chance, are you given
to making unsupported absolute statements? Understand that I'm not
asserting anything here, 'cause I don't know you well enough to assume
anything (unlike some folks we both struggle with).
What Marc said about the Amiga's sales may not be correct, but that
alone is not reason enough to condemn him as not knowing "what he's talking
about when it comes to Amiga sales." There may be more to this than meets
the eye, and, you may recall that I said the following to Ben:
[continued in the reply]
[continued]
"Could Marc be wrong? If so, please give me something I can cut and paste
into that debate. [I have no qualms in assisting the Amiga if what I offer
is supportable.]"
That being the case, why not provide me with something I can use. Just
saying "he doesn't know what he's talking about" is not something I can
use. In fact, it's not something anybody should use, at least not until
they lose their cool <g> and/or run out of real ammo.
I will convey your "Amiga sales have been extremely strong the last 6
months, so much so that the 3000 series is now backordered nationally 30-60
days" statement, but I backorder part won't impress many knowledgeable
business types. For one thing, who releases backorder figures? Think about
it. Also, backorders are not always a healthy sign. Lengthy backorders can
be a sign of poor management, or worse. In this case, CBM may not be
expanding their manufacturing because they are not overly optimistic of the
Amiga's future. After all, its not sound business to invest R&D when
projections are not good. The fact that CBM has not released or announced a
new model this year tends to support that premise.
Now, please respond with something of substance this time, —GeM
COMPUTER UNIT SALES
——————-
According to Computer Intelligence/InfoCorp, Commodore has sold 1.3
million units worldwide so far in 1991. The following stats were
given in the July 8th issue of Computerworld:
Worldwide Unit Sales (in Millions)
COMPANY 1989 1990 1991
———————————————–
IBM 2.7 3.0 3.4
Apple 1.5 1.6 2.1
NEC 1.1 1.3 1.4
Commodore 1.9 1.8 1.3
——————————-
19.0 20.7 23.7
Amiga has announced a new model it's the 3000t, a tower version of the 3000
with more slots, drive bays, power supply capacity, etc.
Accellerators for the 3000 architecture are under development by third
parties, and if I'm any guesser at all (and mind you, I think CBM is the
last company to do anything smart, so this isn't just a blase presumtion)
they are working on accellerators also… I wouldn't even be surprised if
the 3000t came as a "3500" with th 040 installed. That's what they did with
the 2000 series.
Just to point something out… the AMiga's hardware isn't really something
you can point a finger at, except in the area of graphics, where the OS and
the hardware just really fall apart. The OS itself, particularly 2.04, is
something that makes OS2, sys 7, Windows, XWindows, and (of course) MSDOS
look either overweight, slow, task-hoggy, or "idiotic" (assumes the user is
an idiot – I refer specifically to SYS 7 here). Some of these provide
entertainment in the form of combinations of these factors.
The Amiga isn't standing still.
I get the impression that you are a business person…
as such, it migh be of interest to know just what the real shortcoming of
the Amiga family is. In a word, Commodore – not the technical groups, but
managment and marketing. I've seen recent remarks saying that Apple people
don't like Applke, either, but this really is different. CBM is by far and
away the absolute worst at marketing what they have – and that is what will
kill the machine, if anything does.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
CBM, unlike certain other companies we can mention, does not tend to pre
announce new machines until they are ready or nearly ready to ship.
However, there have already been articles in a couple of magazines
concerning the impending release of a Tower configuration Amiga 3000. I'd
call that a new model for this year.
Everything I've heard is that Amiga sales, instead of being down sharply,
are instead significantly higher than expected, causing a backlog of the
higher end machines. (BTW, nearly every computer manufacturer tends to
release backorder figures, under the idea that if people think a product is
selling so well it is backordered, it is selling very well indeed. IBM is
particularly notorious in using this tactic when releasing new models: they
deliberately underproduce the new model at times for just this reason…)
–>Steve Bennett
If Mr Weilage states that "Amiga sales are slumping" when that is not ideed
a fact, then it is grounds enough to state he does not know what he's
talking about. If you were to give a discourse on programming, after saying
that you are not a programmer, I'd also say you didn't know what you are
talking about. Mr. Weilage may be, as you say, a video expert
extraordinaire, but that does not make him an expert commentator on the
current health of Amiga sales.
Thank you. Took the words right out of my mouth.
Jim
– Whap! wuz here