#CD-R Problems-Please Hlp
20 messages in this thread
We are having a serious problem here that I would appreciate your advice on. As
many of you do CD-Rom burning I was hoping that somebody might be able to help.
About 8% of the CD-R disks that we burn are turning out to be unreliably read.
This is a very high percentage.
The disks give every indication that they are burning correctly. That is, we
see no errors.
We then take the disks and put them into another computer. That computer reads
in every file and verifies that all of the data can be read. ("Verifies")
The problem that we are having is that the verifies fail. We then put the disk
into a different verification computer (we have four of them running) and in
about 50% of the cases the verification then passes.
What are the most likely causes of this problem? Is the CD-ROM drive not
calibrating? Is the CD-ROM drive making errors? Is the media bad?
We are following all of the rules, so I am certain that the problem is not the
obvious stuff. IE, we are burning 4X media on a 2X drive, so the media IS
properly matched, etc.
I am hoping that you know whether drives tend to be bad/unreliable or if the
media tends to be the common problem in cases such as this.
Thank you for any help and assistance that you can offer.
—–
The CD-R drive we are using is a "Plasmon 4101" and the media is Verbatim 4X.
We are recording at 2X speed.
Following up on this posting (Replying to myself…)
The verification drives are Mitsumi
The recorder is Plasmin RF-4101 (Firmware 1.28)
The media is Verbatim 4X (Gold Dye)
The record speed is 2X
The software is InCat MM 3.0
Any assistance about what might be the problem would be most graciously
appreciated. This is an extremely serious problem for our company. We are
cranking our 50 dubious disks a day!
Might be problems with 74 min discs in the Mitsumi. I would verify on a Toshiba
or Sony drive if possible.
What make of CD-R drive does the Plasmon have? Is it a JVC for example? If so
you might need a firmware upgrade because the writer may be burning out of
spec.
..Carl
Carl,
Plasmon uses the Philips engine, with their own firmware. It's considered
quite solid.
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shops
Thanks that's good information to have at hand.
..Carl
David,
It's probably not the writer or the media — as I mentioned in another thread,
your Mitsumi players are a probable culprit. There has been a lot of discussion
recently about the fact that many CDROM player manufacturers play fast & loose
with the standards… in fact, some people say there aren't any standards that
apply to players (but I don't believe that.) The standards that do exist are a
bit ambiguous, however, and CD-R puts more stress on them than replicated discs
perhaps, so you need a better quality drive that is known to work well with that
(physical) format. Toshiba & Plextor are getting high marks currently.
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shops
I agree with that and the 74 min. reply. I always suggest 63 min. if the data
can fit on it.
Jackson
<<I agree with that and the 74 min. reply. I always suggest 63 min. if the
data can fit on it.>>
Not a chamce. We process 500,000 different graphic images (B&W TIFF Files) each
and every day here. All must get burned onto CD-ROM. We pack the disks as very
full as possible to keep the count as low as possible.
>>in fact, some people say there aren't any standards that apply to players
(but I don't believe that.)
Believe it. <g> I've never seen or heard of a standard for players, just for
discs and file formats. The players have to read them and write them, but how
the manufacturers implement the reading and writing is pretty much up to them.
But, but… isn't the requirement to read standard formats a standard? I'm not
questioning the acknowledged expert here; if you say it isn't a standard, I'll
believe it, but I'll be durned if I'll understand it!
Kathy
>>isn't the requirement to read standard formats a standard? I'm not
questioning the acknowledged expert here; if you say it isn't a standard, I'll
believe it, but I'll be durned if I'll understand it!
Yes, the requirement to read standards is a standard, but there are many ways
to implement the reading of a standard. If this were not so, we would not have
multiple speed drives, multisession drives that only read XA sessions, or
drives that refuse to read some discs while they easily read others. We would
similarly not have CD recorders that implemented some, but not all, features
and modes of recording in the Orange Book. There would not have been a
_three-hour_ (spare me!) session at REPLItech devoted to the discussion of how
non-standardized CD testing equipment is, based on the drives they use.
It's called a free market, I believe.<g> If you can make a CD-ROM drive that
will comply with the the standard well enough to read 60% of discs, you can
market it and sell it, and let the buyer beware.
Dana,
>> If this were not so, we would not have multiple speed drives, multisession
drives that only read XA sessions <<
or CD-R software that records multisession mode 1 disks…
Forgive me, but if I remember right there's a recommendation in the yellow book
saying there shall be only one mode 1 track on a CD.
So if drives do not read mode 1 multisession disks they are completely
according to the standard following even all the recommendations.
And the Philips Sony white paper 'An introduction to CD-I Bridge Disc' which
described for the first time the basic concept of the ISO 9660 extensions for
MultiSession speak of mode 2 disks only.
Peter
>> if I remember right there's a recommendation in the yellow book saying there
shall be only one mode 1 track on a CD.
>>So if drives do not read mode 1 multisession disks they are completely
according to the standard following even all the recommendations.
As I said, there are many ways to implement the reading of a standard. Some
drives add features, some leave some of them out. CD+G is an example – it's
defined in the Red Book, but only a few players ever included it. Red Book
defines reading speed as 75 sectors per second, this was carried through to
Yellow Book. Some drives read faster than that.
>>And the Philips Sony white paper 'An introduction to CD-I Bridge Disc' which
described for the first time the basic concept of the ISO 9660 extensions for
MultiSession speak of mode 2 disks only.
CD-I is Mode 2. Bridge Disc is based on Orange Book and Green Book. The Orange
Book, Part 2, which refers to the Yellow Book for digital data structure, is
really rather vague as to which Mode to use for multisession; it specifically
excludes or recommends neither. The commonly accepted interpretation is that
either is allowed, as long as all sessions are one or the other. The only
reference to reading the data back that I can find is in the first paragraph:
"the recorded CD-WO disc is 'Red Book compatible' so it can be played back on
conventional CD players."
Thanks for the reply. I'll verify the "bad" disks on another drive when we get
one. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Mitsumi drives out there and not being
compatible with them will have huge impact on support costs here.
Dear David,
I have been making a little database of stuff gathered around CompuServe and
the Internet on problems reading CD-R discs on CD-ROM drives, and Mitsumi does
seem to be a problem drive, though I have yet to find anyone who can tell me
_why_. I strongly second Kathy's recommendation to try another drive (we use
Plextors in-house and love them), and also some other brand of media I won't
recommend a specific one, because in my database what one person loves and
never has trouble with another hates and trashes on the same CD recorder — go
figure. Perhaps Kathy can advise us on this based on the paper she's about to
publish…
Best regards,
Deirdre' Straughan
Incat Systems
I would entirely skip the Mitsumi drive if I could. But unfortunately, the cost
to our little company to go out and replace every Mitsumi drive every shipped
to any company that might ever try to read our disks would be a little costly.
Therefore, while we could change out the drives we use internally (several
dozen Mitsumi drives, by the way) that wouldn't fix the problems with our
customers.
The simple fact is that Mitsumi drives do read silver disks, and do a poor job
on gold ones. Like it or not, this is much more of a problem for the gold disk
people than it is for the Mitsumi people.
>>The simple fact is that Mitsumi drives do read silver disks, and do a poor
job on gold ones. Like it or not, this is much more of a problem for the gold
disk people than it is for the Mitsumi people.
See my message to Katherine Cochrane, #118076.
To be quite frank, Mitsumi drives aren't the most reliable for silver discs
either. The gold and silver discs are governed by a standard, but the
manufacturers of the drives that read them have considerable leeway in how they
implement that standard. IOW, all media is created equal. All drives are not.
Many drive manufacturers take the stance that this is a minor problem, because
the CD-R market is as yet a small one, but as the CD-R market grows, I think
this attitude will become less prevalent. Some drive manufacturers have bgun to
recognize the desirablility of making drives that will reliably read CD-R
discs. One of the best ways to convince them that this is a good idea is to buy
and use CD-ROM drives that already do.
Mitsumi is, in fact, coming out with a CD-Recorder of their own, so it will
soon _become_ their problem.
By force of numbers, you're right that it's more our problem than theirs. And
up till now we've seen exactly that attitude on the part of a number of CD-ROm
drive manufacturers. Unfortunately, there's nothing that those of us who "make"
gold discs, from the CD recorder or mastering software perspective, can _do_.
Our discs are up to spec. What can we do if Mitsumi's drives are not? Advise
people to buy drives that work.
Best,
Deirdre'
<<By force of numbers, you're right that it's more our problem than theirs. And
up till now we've seen exactly that attitude on the part of a number of CD-ROm
drive manufacturers. Unfortunately, there's nothing that those of us who "make"
gold discs, from the CD recorder or mastering software perspective, can _do_.
Our discs are up to spec. What can we do if Mitsumi's drives are not? Advise
people to buy drives that work.>>
Yes, it's a variation of the question: "Do the ends justify the means?" The
answer has always been that yes, the ends do justify the means so long as after
the ends are accomplished you have enough power to go back and justify the
means.
Stated less obtusely, "he who drinks upstream drinks the cleanest water."
In this case, customers have the CD-ROM drives long before they get our disks.