#Build it/Buy it??
21 messages in this thread
WE use the ASUS and SuperMicro and AMI boards exclusively.
and it is not a myth.
try something like PCI to PCI bus bridging on a cheap asian clone
with 2 or 3 adaptec scsi 2940's or Mylex raid controllers, and you will see the
difference, they work and most do not.
or try running a p120 with EDO ram on a cheap board.
ASUS and SM do it great.
and I would not call the ASUS a cheap asina clone,
the have the best engineered board in the world at this time- the ground plane
is amazing, the capaictance exceeds 6000. and the cache\ pci
chip layout is top notch.
they also use iso 9002 manufacturing.
if you look at the INtel PCI bus specs on bridging, or talk to adaptec
tech support engineers like we do, especially with the new 3940 dual scsi
channel cards then high end qualtiy becomes apparent.
there are to many tech details on why the above boards and cards work better,
last longer and produce no incompatabilities
with the diamond s64 and many other high end cards,
but you get the jist.
believe me, we a beta testors for alot of harware, including Intel\IBM
Microsoft \ AMD\ Tyan etc, so we no what harware works with what,
and what skimping on boards does, it produces
conmpatbility problems such a sthe people having conflicts with video vram
cards when they work perfectly for us and we have the same cards
as they do.
congrats on your choice of ASUS, a truly great board.
we use Warp\ WIn95 \ and are about to try NT 3.51 with 3ds.
qemm produces so many problems related to memory, and especially does not like
EDO ram and triton chipset.
especially the cloaking stealth crap.
we have had probably 50 customers complain about various memory\
harware errors , and when they switch to emm386 or warp or NT
it alleviates it almost always.
DOS is dead, we have not used it for 3 years and may it roll over in its grave
when it finally dies later this year(G)
best,
cameron
CYberImage
Cameron,
I didn't mean Asus was a cheap Asian clone (no offence to any forum member out
there who is in fact a cheap Asian clone <g>). I was saying I heard they were
good and didn't have to pay a bundle to a "high-end" system integrator to get
that knowledge. I guess I'm a little gun-shy now because of an experience I
had. I talked to such a dealer about 6 months ago who was going to sell me
systems made of superior components, specifically for 3ds/graphics use. The
price premium was about $5000 per box over buying the same components through
an average dealer who knew little of 3ds. When I questioned what the extra
$5000 was getting me, he just couldn't give me an answer. Needless to say I got
the systems with the same "superior" (actually off the shelf) components from a
local systems manufacturer at a very competitive price.
>> DOS is dead, we have not used it for 3 years and may it roll over in its
grave when it finally dies later this year(G) <<
I'm not going to argue on this. I hate DOS now with a passion. Trying to get
loaded systems working with enough base RAM is just one big kludge. Hopefully
NT will alleviate this problem, but I'm sure there'll be new headaches <g>.
Martin
The implication here is that "high-end" system integrator's are going to charge
you excessively more than you would otherwise pay… and alot of people do
believe this, and in some cases its true… on the other hand not everyone can
put a system together as you may be able to, and a good "high-end" system
intergrator… or should we say a Value Added Reseller, is more than worth the
additional cost compared to what you'd pay at a regular off the shelf discount
house… and the problem is, alot of people will believe they can just go and
get the best deal and put it all together and save themselves a load of
money… which in fact just isn't so… no doubt $5000 per unit is excessive
but I don't think it takes a Phi Beta Cappa to figure that out…
John
John,
>> Value Added Reseller, is more than worth the additional cost compared to
what you'd pay at a regular off the shelf discount house <<
I don't build my own systems any more. I have in the past, but it's not an
effective use of my time nowadays. You really don't need to.
what I'm suggesting people do, just as I did (and still do), is arm themselves
with as much info as possible gleaned from the info you can get by talking to
users on this forum. This info is practically free, and priceless to boot,
although you do have to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Then you select your vendor and have THEM build you systems to your specs using
the components you specify. This is kindof the "Consumer Reports" method of
buying: get all the knowledge you can, then bargain hard.
Martin
Martin,
If a newbie may be allowed to jump in here, I'd like to comment on your advise
about not building your own systems. It's right on the mark. I am a very good
example of what value this and the other GU forums hold for people like myself.
When I decided to make this move, the first place I began researching was
magazine articles and ads. Ads are……well…..ads, nuf said. After reading
and reading reviews, and seeing the same conclusions, that everything is great,
that got a little suspicious too. My original intent was to buy all the
components and assemble a complete NLE suite with animation capabilities built
in. So, I joined 14 different forums covering this type of hardware and
software.
Being brand new to all these forums was a great advantage, because I had no
counter set. I downloaded over 10,000 threads and spent a week going over them.
The first thing the forums did for me was to keep me from spending over $10K on
useless equipment. Trying to assemble and set it all up myself, I would have
probably spent years trying to figure out if it was me or the equipment that
was faulty. Reading all those threads, I think gave me a really good idea, what
would or would not get the job done.
It also put me in touch with people like Cameron and Murphy. Once I had decided
on the workstation and softwares I wanted to start with, they were invaluable
in helping fine tune the total package. I might also add, that they had both
put in a bid for the total package. And, both were gracious enough to let me
split the deal between them. This allowed me to get the best of both worlds,
and prices. Keeping in constant contact through out the setup, I learned of
surprises and stumbling blocks that they stepped over with little effort. I
would have been helpless, not to mention the frustration involved.
So, if anyone out there is like me, just starting up. I highly recommend you
follow Martin's advice. The very modest (and I mean very modest) fees you are
charged for these services are worth it ten times over. Besides, you'll make
that up and more with the savings on the gear, the time, and the hair pulling.
Had I not went this route, I would have spent around $6-7000 more on the
equipment and would now be having little chats with a criminal psychologist.
Instead, I'm waiting on a monster, state of the art animation workstation.
Thanks, Terry
Terry,
>> The first thing the forums did for me was to keep me from spending over
$10K on useless equipment. <<
that's a great story Terry. I also believe I was able to save my company many
thousands of dollars and lots of grief with non-functional equipment by asking
for advice.
However, I take a lot of stuff with a pinch of salt – even here – because there
are a lot of dealers/salespeople with a vested interest in hardware sales. I've
seen quite a few push equipment that the general "user" consensus has found
unsatisfactory. Try to get advice from users who don't also sell the stuff THEN
go to the dealers well-armed.
Martin
Martin,
>>try to get advice from the users<<
True enough, and that's what I did. That's where the beauty of the zillions of
threads I downloaded came in. I was not only able to get the users opinions,
but the responses of the manufacturers to thier complaints. Not to mention a
good history of each.
I think where I was best served by the dealers, was the knowledge they hold in
what will work and not work together. I was also surprised in the standoff
manner I was treated in the beginning. There were dealers in this forum who
knew I had money to spend, but didn't try to push anything on me until I had a
pretty good idea of what I needed and wanted. I can think of more things that
was on my original list, that they took off, (keeping me from over killing
anything) than things they added to increase sales.
I can't say this for some of the other forums I joined. In fact, some of the
advice I received, in my mind constitutes outright fraud. You're right, it's
best to be well armed. With the information available in this forum, there is
simply no excuse not to be. I also found no reluctance from the members here to
answer all my questions, and more importantly, to suggest others that I hadn't
thought of myself. The information is there, you just got to put in the time
and read all the threads. Saved me some major errors, and I can't thank
everyone enough. I just hope I can repay all the favors someday.
Thanks, Terry
Terry – You don't know how many people have called us and been
surprised when they give us a list that they want to buy, and the
first thing we ask is "What are you trying to do?" Any reputable
dealer will make an effort to ascertain your need based upon your
level of knowledge, the task that you are attempting to complete, and
the budgetary constraints that you are subject to. We have had raw
neophytes call expecting to spend $20k and be producing "Jurassic
Park" the next week.
That level of production doesn't come overnight. These individuals
come back to us as they grow in their abilities over the long term,
instead of bad-mouthing our firm for pursuing that
quick-strike-go-for-the-jugular sale. I have known individuals that
have taken that route, and I must admit that I do not respect them,
or their attitudes.
Information IS the key to avoiding those predatory creatures. Welcome to the
font of that knowledge. Tell your friends, and bring them along.
Dennis,
Thanks, I think. I hope I never "bad mouthed a firm for that
quick-strike-go-for the jugular sale. What firm are you with btw? <g>
I *was* one of those raw neophytes. I wasn't expecting to produce a
"Jurassic Park". Well, not in a week anyway. I had a reasonable idea
of where I wanted to go, but didn't know what tools I needed to get
there. I can say that I did not get ANY dealers from this forum
pushing or pressuring me to buy anything at all. In fact, I think the
dealers I went with, saved me a lot of money, one way or the other.
One of the first things that I was impressed with, was their
insistance that I rechannel some of my available funds into training
books and tapes. This cost them some equipment sales, but they were
already culling my list, keeping me from buying things that I didn't
need. I was, and am still impressed with the service I received from
Cameron and Murph. That goes for Jonas and Gary too, who took the
time to answer a lot of my questions. Questions that I'm sure they've
heard a thousand times.
Thanks, Terry
Good people, all. Stick with best, you'll fly higher thn the rest.
Martin,
>>Try to get advice from users who don't also sell the stuff THEN go the
dealers well-armed…. <<
I find myself in total agreement with your last reply and then, you come back
with this comment…
Many dealers use the equipment they sell, and its precisely for that reason
that they are knowledgeable and respected for thier opinions, if you're
referring to some other type of "users", I could take exception but I got out
of it before Greg P. so I don't think the use of that term is relevant to
anyone on this forum… but it does beg the question… who are you referring
to…?
John
John,
MF >>Try to get advice from users who don't also sell the stuff THEN go the
dealers well-armed…. << <<
JE >> I find myself in total agreement with your last reply and then, you come
back with this comment… <<
I'm not referring to anyone in particular, it's just common sense based on
human nature – you weren't born yesterday were you John? <g>.
I told you I'm a big fan of "Consumer Reports" and it's just a rule of thumb –
you need unbiased advice from people with nothing to gain. No offence intended
to anyone, and if it was caused then tough. You don't go to a car dealer and
ask them which car is best for your needs, you don't go to Sears and ask them
for the best washing machine. They might have the best product but if they
don't chances are they won't tell you to go to the store that does sell the
best. You need to get your facts/info in advance.
I think you're trying to be too politically correct.
Martin
Martin
>> I think you're trying to be politically correct… <<
I think I should take that as a compliment, except that if that were the case,
I wouldn't have brought the issue up with you in the first place… now would
I. <g> The rest as usual is common sense…
However useing phrases like "users" as opposed to dealers… well I don't know
of any other "users" who had the means to do this sort of thing other than
myself, … the rest are "dealers"… so it was very easy in light of our
opinions and discussions in the past and in present context, as a statement
directed towards me personally… regardless you now know what the situation
is, so the only motive you can ascribe to my actions is "politically correct",
not much I can do about that… except maybe enjoy the benefits of doing what I
think is the right thing in the first place, there will always be cynics… 🙂
FWIW I am not a big fan of Consumer Reports because they aim for the middle of
the road and frequently miss the mark…
John
Martin,
>>Try to get advice from users who don't also sell the stuff THEN go the
dealers well-armed…. <<
I find myself in total agreement with your last reply and then, you come back
with this comment…..
Many dealers use the equipment they sell, and its precisely for that reason
that they are knowledgeable and respected for thier opinions, if you're
referring to some other type of "users", I could take exception but I got out
of it before Greg P. so I don't think the use of that term is relevant to
anyone on this forum… but it does beg the question… who are you referring
to…?
>>>>>>
right on John, !!
this is precisely the point. You nailed it.
We do test hundreds of products we come in contact with,
and as such are in a great position to know what works with what and how well.
using just about every product in some 5+ OS's
including WIN NT, WIN 95, OS2, Dos , Windows, etc.
when dealers say something is not reliable or has a history pf problems,
they usually speak from expierence.
I applaud your keen and valid insight, and agree completely.
best
Cameron
CYberImage
>> I applaud your keen and valid insight, and agree completely. <<
Well, I have the advantage of having worked with some really good systems
builders and learned alot… and have built more than a few systems myself, but
in the end as you point out, there is so much to know with regard to what works
with what, and what works best etc. that unless you've really into it on a
regular basis, its much better to go with someone who really knows their
stuff… and it really is time consuming trying to keep up with it all, and
really not worth the effort unless you enjoy it as a hobby or something… in
which case I suggest finding a new hobby. <G>
The truth is… any dealer that sells and supports on this forum, has very high
visibility, and if the system isn't built correctly or there is a problem, we
all get to hear about it… and as if that wasn't enough consider that graphic
systems are typically state of the art and are shipped to places elsewhere…
So alot has to be checked and tested to insure that the system works properly
and has the right components.
I give the dealers that are willing to do it alot of credit, because its tough
and the potential fallout from a foul up is ever present… personally the only
reason I can see that a dealer is willing to do it is for the prestige, because
all else being equal, pricing has to be fairly competitive…. which isn't to
suggest that people shouldn't shop around but shop on dealer reputation as much
if not more so than on price… because its really hard to measure the value of
a good dealer in dollar and cents… and it can be priceless… like the dealer
that delivered your system when he said he would and as a result you got that
rush job completed which meant a bigger project was awarded… because you were
ready to go… maybe some people just expect that as a matter of course… but
alot depends on how fast you need it etc…
Or the dealer who spent 15 mins on the phone with you when you urgently needed
to talk to him because you thought you lost your hard drive when it fact it was
just the CMOS that got screwed up because someone accidently disconnected the
battery…
My advice is for people to think about what kind of a difference support like
this could make to their operation… if it doesn't matter call Gateway and
when you have problems, call them back, and if you're lucky you'll talk to a
real human and after another half an hour… figure out how much time you've
spent already just to discover, you've got a bad hard drive… and will have to
send the whole system back… or maybe they'll ship you just the hard drive,
but you'll have to replace it… then you find out it hasn't been formatted, so
you either send it back or format it yourself… you've never done it so you
have to call and again another delay… and then you find out its an EIDE and
it won't configure on your system… you read the instructions and the pins are
different than in the diagram… its endless… course you could get lucky
too…
Enough said, keep up the good work.
John
Having just recently gotten into the 'dealer' gig (after 10 years as a
'user'), I can appreciate your comments. One of the aspects that I
enjoy most about this line of work is having the opportunity to help
people solve a problem – Production needs, software info, h/w s/w
malfunctions, and "How can I . . . ." questions.
This is not necessarily a business where you will get rich. No guarantees
there. Just the satisfaction of doing a job that is enjoyable (most of the
time) where you can deal with a group of people who are, by nature, creative
and possessing of great imaginations (again – most of the time).
Cameron,
And you do it well.
Terry
Martin,
>> what I'm suggesting people do, just as I did (and still do), is arm
themselves with as much info as possible gleaned rom the info you can get by
talking with users on this forum… <<
The gist of your entire clarification, I totally agree with… as pricing is
not reguraly discussed its sometimes a little difficult but I couldn't agree
more… take the time to find out as much as you can, find someone you feel
comfortable working with and take it from there…
Know the value of what you're working with and know that there won't be any
hidden suprises… that is something the forum can be especially helpful with,
armed with that knowledge one can seperate the wheat from the chaff as it were
and find a good VAR who will give the support and the components that are
required… no more no less…
So yes in that context… we totally agree…, thanks for the clarification.
John
Hi John,
That's uh, er, well … Phi Beta *Kappa* 😉
Kiao,
Tom
>> Phi Beta *Kappa* <<
I never was any good at greek… <g>
John