#Buying SGI Equipment
38 messages in this thread
I am looking into buying an SGI workstation and wondered if anyone had some
advice. Thanks?
>> I am looking into buying an SGI workstation and wondered if anyone had
some advice. Thanks? <<
Make sure you _REALLY_ need one before you buy it. What is your application?
– Dan / n-Space, Inc.
I am looking at gettting the MediaSuite Pro from Avid and runnning it on a SGI
Indigo Extreme. I will demo this before buying it, but I don't think the SGI
runs that much more for online editing. I want to have at least Betacam SP
quaility output in real time. I like the PAR card but it does not do things
with sound that I need now. The perception card looks good, but when can I
actually get one and how long will it take to be stable? I need this equipment
with two months.
I will probably get Power Animator, if I like it when I sit down with it,
because the big shops use it and it does seem to do some nice things.
Guy,
Have you looked at the cost for acquisition and output of Betacam SP
quality images on the SGI? We're an SGI dealer, and the machines are
definitely of value to some folks, but your arguments thus far haven't
convinced me you need it. Believe me though, it's gonna cost you, if not in
the initial machine purchase, in the maintenance agreements for the SGI
hardware, SGI software, and your application software.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
The cost I have figured for buying a MediaSuite Pro online editing and a SGI
Indigo Extreme is around $100,000. To me, that seems better than spending half
that on a proprietary system that probably does not look as good. If you have
some alternatives for Non Linear Editing I would like to hear them. I would be
happy to spend less money and be able to do what I want.
PS. Although I like PAR, and think the Perception things sounds nice, I am not
sure when it will be running. I have heard of delays and backorders, plus how
well will RAZOR work with it.
Guy,
OK then, I think I see your perspective on the SGI decision, and it
probably isn't a bad one considering the alternatives. Are you sure, however,
that an Indigo2 Extreme is really useful for that purpose? I doubt the
hardware 3D graphics engines in the Extreme provide any assistance in
Non-Linear Editing functions, and, in fact, the XL is quite a bit faster in the
2D functions. I think you may be overbuying, unless you anticipate
considerable 3D modeling, and want the interactivity with shaded feedback.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin,
Thanks for the feedback. Let me tell you where I am trying to go with this
whole thing. First, I am looking at music videos and commercials. I want to
be able to incorporate 2d effects, 3d animation and live video with an output
that is atleast Betacam SP. Building on this, I want to be able to move more
into compositing with 3D and morphing with live video. I have several
connections to film people that could use cheap special effects, cheap in terms
of ILM.
I feel that in order to match computer animation and live video, I will need a
lot of speed because I know there is going to be a lot of tinkering to get it
to look right. The Extreme might be too much for now, but I want to grow into
having several SGI machines. I would love to stay with IBM compatibles, but I
find it hard to picture a general computer fullfilling the growing graphic
needs for video and film. Let me know what you think.
Guy,
The Extreme (and I think SGI just announced another graphics monster
coming in the Indigo2 line) would be useful for 3D modeling. Any final
rendering or processing of images, or general tinkering, is only going to use
the main cpu. In other words, computing power would be processor dependent
(faster the better), not really a function of the graphics acceleration (for
instance, a XAOS Pandemonium effect won't run any faster). In the case of the
3D Studio Renderer for SGI, a 200 MHz Indigo2 XL would run just as fast as the
Extreme, and probably only slightly better than an Indy.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
To all those that are interested…
<<The Extreme (and I think SGI just announced another graphics monster coming
in the Indigo2 line)>>
In a press release received today, 7/10/95, Silicon Graphics, Inc. announced
a new line of computers at the SGI intermediate price level. The Indigo2
Impact series is reported to offer three times the 3D performance of the
Indigo2 Extreme.
SGI states that the Indigo2 Impact integrated imaging subsystem "generates
a record 100 million trilinear interpolations [that's triangles in
English–Ed.] per second for advanced visualization." The new Impacts also
incorporate a new RAM bus technology running at up to 500MHz.
The Impact systems are said to run all software made for the Indigo2 line.
New applications have been prepared as well, by a number of software
companies to take advantage of the new system's capabilities.
Pricing is $35,000 for the High Impact and $40,000 for the Maximum Impact,
both to be available this quarter. More powerful and higher-priced Impact
models are scheduled to appear in the 4th quarter.
DaviD "When will the "Do everything automatically" button be installed?" GouID
>>We're an SGI dealer, and the machines are definitely of value to some folks>>
Kevin,
About to purchase an Indigo2 with Galileo Board, and possibly the V-Lan Box
"Alex?" for use with Wavefront software.
Have you seen or used any combinations of the SGI or aftermarket V-LAN and
Betacam or high-end S-VHS decks. If so can you recommend any combinations of
these systems that have proven themselves for use.
Thanks for the input,
Marc Dalby
Marc,
Sorry, can't provide any input in that arena in regards to the SGI. Most
people seem to go to an Abekas or Accom digital disk via an Ethernet connection
(or to Exabyte tape for transfer at a service bureau/post house). A lot of
other frame-by-frame stuff is often transferred over to PC or Mac frame buffers
and recorded from the local station.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
I don't know much about NLE stuff, but the SGI is probably an excellent box
for it. Just make sure you buy plenty of those hard drive thingys! <BG>
>> I will probably get Power Animator… does seem to do some nice things <<
Kind of a laid-back comment for a $15k+ package. Yes, it does do some nice
things, but for the price of the software alone, you can get a nice PC, 3ds,
and a good selection of IPAS routines. I would recommend that you determine
if Alias is truely necessary for your application before diving in…
– Dan / n-Space, Inc.
ps – Don't expect to just sit down at Alias and pick up on it in a few hours,
either. Damn poor interface.
I would like to comment that I am not stuck on Alias. I just know a lot of
people that use it, but it seems to be more for modeling.
I like Studio 3d a lot, in fact, I would guess I would still use it for some
things. It just does not seem to be that great at making photorealistic
things.
The speed problems with 3ds will probably be taken care of when the Windows Nt
version is out, but when will that be and how buggy.
SGI? Get out your wallet!
We looked into the SGI machines a while back, but for the money, they just
aren't worth it. Use Brad math here:
1 SGI Indy with what I needed to do the same quality work I get from 3DS would
cost me over $10,000.00. So let's use $10,000.00 as our number here. For the
money, I would get a machine that works about twice as fast as my Pentium 90,
which costs me around $4000.00 once I bought all the RAM. So I pay about twice
as much for a machine that is twice as fast…makes sense, right? WRONG!
After looking into the initial purchase, I started trying out SGI machines and
realized that none of my WIndows programs ran well on it (using their little
Windows-for-SGI programs)…so my investment started to increase. I couldn't
use my Corel Draw! or my Photoshop or any of my expensive design packages on
the SGI.
Anyway, by the time I had priced everything I needed to run on SGI, I could
have bought my existing machine ($4000.00) and four more smaller machines
($2000 each) to farm renderings out to.
For the same money as SGI wanted, I could do the same job faster with more PCs
and 3D Studio…
Wait for the Alphas; unless you have the million or so dollars you need for SGI
Onyx machines, don't bother…
I get your argument, but I have always wanted as much power as I could on one
machine than spreading it out. Why? For me, developing the objects and laying
the scene out takes up most of my time. Having 200 486 would be a big
rendering farm, but would take me forever to create anything.
The other argument is that comparing CPUs speed is not a great comparision
between two seperate machines. For example, the Amiga had a much faster OS
that IBM because it handled graphics much better. SGI was built for graphics,
so I think that would come into play.
Final note, the cost of memory and hard disk space comes into play with render
farms. Not wanting to go into the math, but having 32 Meg of memory and a
large harddrive on each machine starts tacking onto the cost.
I am arguing for SGi right now, but I have not wrote the check yet. Thanks for
the response.
Guy,
You have a good point; and I agree with a lot of it, but I'd personally wait to
see what the Alphas can offer in 1996. So far, I have been impressed by
everything about them.
Now…you might be saying "but the Alphas cost as much or more than SGI
machines." And you'd be right, but running NT on an Alpha with 3D Studio, a
VTR, a good frame buffer, etc… is much, much more economical in the long run.
SGI simply wants too much of my money up front…and the only pieces of
equipment that I have are my VTRs that work with them. Even my very expensive
Nanao monitors would have to go.
If you are considering a first purchase, don't let me deter you from SGI…they
are very nice to work with (and very powerful), but if you have an existing
investment, watch out because it will all be lost (and resale value on VTRs and
frame buffers is very, very low!)
Brad
Don't forget the maintenance charges on the SGI hardware/software every year
either… *ouch*
-Peter
What are the maintenance charges on the SGI hardware and software?
Brad,
What setup do you have were you're running VTR's and a framebuffer… and
specifically what kind of framebuffer… and even more important still, which
applications… ?
TIA
John
John,
I use VTRs anytime I put animation down. I hate using so-called "high-end"
VCRs because I can't have control of everything that goes on.
Anyway, maybe my terminology threw you. I still refer to the old Targa+ cards
as framebuffers….
Bradley,
>> I still refer to the old Targa+ cards as framebuffers… <<
Well you're absolutely correct, they are. My query was under what OS mostly as
I thought maybe you were using NT, and I didn't know which framebuffer you were
using… and with what VTR's… I agree with you statement I just thought maybe
there was some more I could glean from asking the question, in case it was with
regard to NT…
So that was why I asked…
Thanks for your reply,
John
Sorry about the confusion:
I use Targa+ framebuffers (actually the Targa + 16 for the low-end
machines and the ATVistas 4mb for the high-end). I still can't see
the economic advantage of the Targa 2000; and I find the PAR card too
inflexible (i like to do lots of old-fashioned things with cards,
like poke into what they may be doing).
Anyway, to describe my systems, I use an "economically advantageous"
system, in other words, I know that most people can't tell the
difference between Betacam and VHS, so I master lots of jobs on SVHS
tape with Hi-Fi audio using a Sanyo GVR-S950 (about $2300.00). I
have some Betacam equipment but it costs a lot to operate and most of
my clients are low-dollar-high-quality (and everyone should be
familiar with this).
As for as Operating Systems (OS) I use a variety. Never NT. I don't
use NT for anything but a server; I like to use my memory, not waste
it. My NT Servers are both Compaq Proliant 2000 P60 machines with
64mb RAM, 16gb HD, etc… but you probably want the specs on the
animation stuff, so my animation stuff is as follows:
Main System: ( I do 90% of the work here) is a Dell Dimension
XPSP120 with 64mb RAM, two 4gb Seagate
drives, four NEC 3x CD-Roms, an IOmega ZIP
drive, a Dell Multimedia keyboard (fun, but
well, worthless), a microphone (yes, worthless),
and modems, etc…
Subsystens: (I do all rendering jobs and some wireframe here)
4 Digital Venturis 560 machines with 16mb
RAM, 270mb HDD, Intel (whatever)Express
100 cards.
I route everything with Novell's Personal Netware and a nice
3COM Multiconnect Repeater with the fiber-optic cards from
Codenell…old like Andy Griffith but fast like a GTO.
Anyway, I use OS/2 for my 3D Studio work, Windows 95 (beta) for my AutoCAD 13
stuff, and NT for some AutoCAD stuff.
99.999999% of the time, OS/2 Warp. Because I am writing to you as I render, I
love OS/2. Now, don't get me mistaken. I don't like OS/2 enough to endorse
it, but I don't see a better way to run 3DSr4 right now.
Call me, i'll speak volumes.
🙂 Bradley Artigue —- bjartig0@wcc.com
Bradley,
>> Sorry about the confusion… <<
Hey no sweat… got plenty here, the bulk of which answered my
original question, which came down to NT… you talked about high end
systems and graphics boards. OS/2 is definitely a step up from Win
3.1 and DOS but not NT. Interestingly I just read a thread which
claims that IBM will support NT API's… that'll be very interesting
if true… though I suspect there has to be a catch somewhere… your
system seems quite adequate, the render platforms look weak
compartively… but I suspect you must do alot of keyed logos…
still, how you get away with 16 mb of ram per system is a mystery to
me… I haven't seen that little since R2 days.
If you want to debate the merits of NT vs OS/2, I'll pass… been
there, done that… there's enough hard data out there and enough
people using NT that trying to explain it to someone with 4 machines
with 16mb of ram is out of the question. <G>
But don't take this as a slight on your arrangement because it looks
like you've spent considerable time and thought configuring it for
your needs, and the bottom line is, if that's what works for you, I'm
the last person to try to convince you that maybe you need something
else… seriously. That's not my game and never has been. I still
maintain that old addage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". <g>
The whole configuration can change at any moment. For many jobs, I
don't even render to all the workstations, it all depends on what I
am working on. I have a small but reliable client base that keeps me
going — I charge a lot less than some of the big shops around here,
but my clients have to wait a little longer. They usually don't
mind.
How do I get away with 16mb RAM? Like I said, I'll rearrange as
needed. I might have 64mb in two machines at one time, or 16 in
each, or 32 in one and 48 in another…it all changes. Luckily the
cases come off real easy (I can make changes almost on the fly).
In January, I am upgrading to machines that can optionally run NT (I
say "optionally" because I still have to run OS/2 or DOS for 3DSr4).
I'm going to purchase four of the Dell Optiplex machines with twin
P100s in them and 32mb each. Should speed up operations a bit and I
can rack mount the whole thing…no monitor, no keyboards (unless I
need to switch them on)…just a slave setup. I'm debating switching
over to a total fiber link between them, the server, and the "master"
machine, but that's expensive (and the benefits are really not that
great in my case).
And you weren't wrong – my render platforms are waaaaay behind my
"master" system, but I had to make some money before I spent it!!!
I wouldn't generally recommend the approach you've taken, because you
certainly have to know what your doing… but obviously you've got
the situation wired and can maximize all your resources at a moments
notice… Unlike some people you're primed for success… for alot of
people when it comes they're not ready and it overwhelms them… I
can see in your case you have a clear goal of where you want to go
and how you want to approach it… I like it, its risky to an extent
and staying on the edge can take its toll but I'd be right out there
with you under similiar circumstances…
One other point I'd like to mention as its indicative of your whole
arrangement and which I find most admirable… you've thought the
whole thing through, and have come up with your own individual
approach, which would seem quite sound for the time being (albiet you
realise the potential risk and are willing to take it..) you seem
quite adept at switching gears as the situation warrants… I think
that should your situation change, and should your needs require
moving to NT you've got the drive and oranization to make that
tranformation rapidly… alot of organizations couldn't handle it,
which is where I think the motivated independent has a definite
advantage… the ability to adapt rapidly to a changing
environment… so while I've encouraged alot of people to get on NT
early on as that really is a sound approach overall, your operational
mode of flexibility could allow you to adapt very quickly should the
need arise. I hope so, because it would be nice to see more people
like you taking this journey into the world 3DS is entering… you
unique approach to solutions would be a real asset.
>> Have a good one <<
You too Amigo…
John
>>SVHS tape with Hi-Fi audio using a Sanyo GVR-S950 (about $2300.00).<<
What do you think about the Sanyo, Reliability etc. I am considering it for
purchase and can use all the feedback I can get.
Thanks,
Marc
PMJI, my experiences with the Sanyo GVR-S950 were pretty miserable for
frame-by-frame recording. Lots of dropouts. Tech/repair support sucked, the
unit spent a total of 2 months in different shops with no actual repair of the
problem.
It seemed to work fine as a regular record/playbeack deck.
Paul S.
Marc,
Well, I was a dealer for Sanyo and can tell you that I can sympathize with
Pauls problems regarding the Sanyo GVR-S950…our Dealerships unit worked Great
when we first got it in but after a while it developed a "Tearing" Problem
laying down single frame animations. I was lucky enough to have contacted Sanyo
Directly in California and therefore I got Excellent Tech Support, so I'd have
to disagree with Paul on the Tech Support Sucked part of it. I think what he
may have run in to was a subcontracted technical repair center similiar to the
one one of my clients used for the same problem that was located in the Chicago
Area…that particular tech support subcontractor simply did not know what he
or she was doing. My client had a Scratched "Audio" head which was
identifiable by the fact that the scratch was showing up prior to any single
frame animations beign layed down. They could not or would not recognize this.
After many many phone calls he finally called me and I told him to contact
Sanyo directly in California….they knew what we were talking about and
replaced the unit at no charge.
Since the introduction of the DPS PAR and now the PVR by Digital Processing
Systems I can't see any reason why anyone would want to use a Single Frame
Setup..therefore I'm assuming that you want to use this deck as a S-VHS Hi-Fi
Recording Deck Straight from A Par or similiar device…If that is the Case
then this would be an excellent deck for it because it was really designed for
single frame and is very accurate…however a bit pricey for just laying down
to S-VHS..I would look at getting the DPS PVR System or if money is tight maybe
the original DPS PAR if your only doing "Industrial" Video.
If you require Higher Grade Video…."Above S-VHS"..output, then you must
consider the PVR or similiar Digital Video Systems going out to BetaSP Quality.
You can always Purchase a Panasonic AG-1970 or the Newer Sony SVO-2000 which
are both S-VHS Hi-Fi record decks that are considered "Pro-sumer" Quality. In
other words Better than Consumer Deck Quality and certainly good enough for
Industrial Video Presentations.
Then if you needed to go out to BetaSP…just rent the BetaSP Deck and Run out
at Component Quality from your PVR.
Be sure and figure the cost of the rental and your extra time and expenses when
quoting your higher end clients and all should be happy.
I hope this helps.
Murph'
My deck went to Chicago first, then later to LA.. The head guy in LA (who
I think you may have referred me to) *was* very helpful and attentive…, they
just failed to repair the deck! So the tech support was fine, the repair
support was lacking! <g>
Paul S.
Marc:
I really like the deck; for $2300 it's the best deck for the money. It's
inexpensive enough not be be a burden to entry-level animators and powerful
enough that it can crank out broadcast-quality work cheaply.
The editing features an expandibility of the unit is lacking; but for
computer-to-video tape editing it's a bargain and a fairly powerful solution.
Thanks for the input. I'll probably make the purchase and more than likely go
with the 955. (I've heard this one tends too be a touch more predictably and is
priced at only $100-300 more.)
I will probably only use the deck for preview purposes only, as the final
output will be on rercordable laserdisk. (will be MCI controlled for
presentations)
Again, thanks for the info.
Marc
After so many replies, let me give another 2 cents…
The cost difference isn't too great. A comparable PC (CPU+Memory) isn't that
far off. The cost of the software, however, is typically 10x due to the reduced
market share. The support contract is a bargain if you consider your time being
worth anything. If you have a bad _anything_, you have immediate replacement.
How much does it cost you to wait a week for a PC to be repaired?
The decision has to be made based on other not so obvious "costs". Do you, or
does anyone in your company knows "a lot" about Unix? Have you ever seen some
of these "high end" programs working? They are, by definition, all very buggy
and intricate. If you like DOS, you shouldn't have much problems. If you are
like those who hate DOS and like Windows, you will throw your SGI out of the
Window in the first 30 minutes for just trying to install a software license.
As I see it, the kind of problems you complain about the current state of PC
hardware/software are just like those you will find under Unix, if not worse.
These are high-end, "niche" type products with limited audience and thus
limited "demand" for an easier product. Of course I am comparing these to broad
market share products such as spreadsheet and word processors.
Spend some time with someone running these things to have a feeling for it. Try
leasing some equipment and getting "evaluation" licenses for the software you
will be using (Kevin can set you up with all these and more). The biggest cost
of all is the time it will take you to realise you've made a bad decision
(either SGI, PC, or whatever).
As far as NLE on PC's, take a look at FAST Video Machine with the NLE options.
On the SGI, a combination of Wavefront Composer and Accom WSD should do you
miracles for about 1.5 times the cost but no image loss. But then again, that's
the easy part… try using either…
Guy,
I would seriously recommend the ImMix Turbo Cube for a high quality nonlinear
system. We have had one for a few months now, and it is incredible. Top notch
video quality, alot of realtime effects- including 3D page turns, and DVE.
Flying audio faders, realtime keying (luma,alpha, chroma) and lots more.
Expensive, ($90k) but it totally replaced our online (linear) suite costing
much more. Very productive, and easy to use. (I picked up the basics in a few
hours..) It runs on a PowerMac (interface), with it's own RAID array and
dedicated modular hardware for the video and audio. Very upgradable. (the
computer doesn't process the actual video) Backup time is 10% longer than
realtime. Component input/output. Uncompressed Quicktime input/output also
allows you to input 3DS animation (with Debabelizer), as well as After Effects,
and other stuff. It's a Killer nonlinear box.
JNJ
What quality output does it have? Like SVHS or Betacam SP. Does it use SMPTE?
I saw a demo of it once and liked it, but I'm not a big fan of Macs. One more
question, for 90K how much video can you store?
The quality is the best I've seen for nonlinear (except for uncompressed) (It
stomps on our Avid Media Suite Pro) It's definately BetaSP. It will record
SMPTE marked areas (automated batch digitizing) and lay off SMPTE I believe.
(I'm just the graphics guy.. not an editor.) It will record 1 hour of video,
and 2 hours of stereo audio. Additional time/storage can be bought at 1Vid2Aud
increments. It uses a custom wavelet compression (it doesn't get blocky like
JPEG, only "soft" after multiple compressions.) The compression is in a
continual state of improvement- it's CD-ROM upgradable. Very plug and play.
(And I'm not a Mac zealot) I like it.
Depending on what you need, there may be other options for shorter projects,
and more effects laden stuff- like something called the CUB "Dance" It looks
really hot, but is intended for smaller stuff (like spots, etc.) It's
uncompressed, and has many layers of realtime DVE tracks, etc. It also looks
cool, but never seen it in person. Not sure on the cost, I think around $40k,
with probably much less storage. A Mac runs the box.
JNJ