#SW Copy Protection
31 messages in this thread
As chairperson of an Amiga SIG, I wouldn't imply that every user group has a
'club expert' to help pirates break SW & HW. Since the group I belong to is
incorporated, we would be liable if any pirating goes on at our meetings. We
set an example for the members and enforce the rules: No Marauder et.al. during
any meeting. If it can't be copied by diskcopy then it ain't allowed. If a
person has a legitimate need then he must approach the librarian, explain the
circumstances and let him do the copy.
-Greg
I am the President of of Amiga club here in Vancouver (Panorama – Pacific
Northwest Amiga Association). We recently amalgamated with the Commodore
Computer Club giving us just over 600 members. We average between 150 to 200
members per meeting (2 meetings per month) at which we distribute normally 2
disks of PD software per meeting. We also do not condone piracy of any kind,
however we do use Marrauder to copy the disks since it allows us to dump an
entire disk into memory and then dump it out to 3 or 4 drives at a time.
Without Marrauder, we just would not be able to do the copying during the time
of the meeting. By the way, we usually just barely finish copying peoples
disks by the end of the meeting, and that is with at least three machines
running 3 drives at a time.
I suppose the point I am trying to make, is that just because someone is using
Marrauder, does not mean that they are pirating. Until something better comes
along, now that Marrauder is no more, we will continue to use it.
Tom Gowdyk 75026,3436
If your _club _librarian_ and his assistants want to use Marauder, fine.
We do too. But it is taboo for our rank and file. If an individual member wants
to copy something then he better be able to do it with diskcopy. Policy is that
if caught they are warned the first time. The second time they WILL turn their
machine off for the remainder of the meeting. Beyond that, they will be removed
from the meeting. We have lost a number of members to this policy.
This is an act of faith we perform for the local dealers who give our members
25%-30% discount off of list. They have told us that if we were to be found
pirating then they would withdraw support, among other things. -Greg
Wow, 25 to 30% off software. We only get a 5% discount for members. There is
a difference there too. Members of the executive do all the copying for
everyone, rather than having members all bring in machines. Our meetings are
held in a lecture amphitheatre and we tend to do the meetings as presentations
and demonstrations. We do however have workshop meetings where everyone is
welcome to bring their machines and sit down and work out problems. We are
hoping after our election of new executive in October, to start up seminars on
various packages like Pro-Page, Word Perfect, Excellence etc.
Tom Gowdyk
Remember I said 25%-30% off List. The public gets 15%-20% at most stores here.
-Greg
Tom…
Have you seen our information/messages on the Amiga Friendship Day? Hope to
see you and your group get involved..it is a very worthwhile event. For more
information, there should be a file in the file transfer area, the News and
Rumors section, which explains the event. If you require any further
information, please feel free to send me mail.
Jim
Jim. Two members of our executive were in Chicago for Amiexpo and brought back
all the information. We are trying to work out something now, to get involved
with it.
Tom Gowdyk
Tom…
Thats great news. Please, keep me informed! Thanks..
Jim
Tom, you can do that same copying without using Marauder. As a matter of fact,
we have found that sometimes Marauder tries SO hard that it copies errors and
folks get bad disks. We use DFC (from Fish#131). It copies only unprotected
things, but will store in memory and make up to four copies at one time in a
similar manner to Marauder. A more recent copy program, on Fish#139, is called
TurboBackup. It will also make up to four copies at one time.
Betty
Great, we will have to give those a try. We have only just gotten the latest
Fish disks in, so we will have to give it a shot next meeting. Thanks for the
info.
Tom Gowdyk
I called Discovery yesterday because Brain File 10 won't copy the newest
version of "Dark Castle." My first copy destroyed itself while trying to write
a high score to disk, so I wanted to make a backup of the second. Discovery
told me that there would be another brain file "in two or three months." Why
are you saying that "Marauder is no more"?
We were informed up here in Canada that Discovery had dropped production of
Marrauder due to their contract with Taito. It seems Taito did not like the
idea that discovery was making a product capable of breaking protection
schemes. I also just read about this in either Amazing Computing or Amigaworld,
can't remember which. Discovery was talking about a discount on their VIP virus
protection program to registered users of Marrauder to make up for its demise.
Tom Gowdyk
Jon, there hasn't been a Marauder brain file in months! Marauder is
practically worthless. It doesn't copy a single new thing any more, and hasn't
for awhile.
Why Discovery doesn't say THEMSELVES that Marauder is dead, I don't know.
They should just admit the fact.
What is a good copy program, Henry? I really _hate_ not having backups.
Unfortunately, nothing that I know of right now. I think that Mirror was
already behind, and trompled by Marauder when it was useful.
There is something called Project D, but I know nothing about it.
Marauder is a very good copy program; if that's what you need. It's fast, and
it's reliable. Those who actually own the program know that it copies 100% per
cent reliably using the "verbatim" mode. Many people leave it in the Analytical
mode when doing straight copies, and that can introduce all kinds of problems.
I would recommend it 100% for your personal use for backup, and for
duplication, it's very handy, with that write multiple disks from a memory
image of the disk (if you have enough memory). The fact that it will no longer
(supposedly) copy new protection schemes bothers me not at all. First of all, I
personally won't buy copy protected software, so that's no problem. And second
of all, no one needed Marauder to break that stuff anyway. Your neighborhood
hacker does it anyway. I wouldn't worry too much about Henry's comment, there.
–Ben–
So, that means you _do_ allow copying of WP, PCLO, Scheme, Excellence,
SuperBase, Designtext, and etc ad nauseum? What in the world does marauder have
to do with it? Software theft occurs either way, CP has not a darn thing to do
with it. I _suspect_ that your group pirates as much as any other group – if
not, great – but I doubt it. You may not be aware of it, they usually take
great pains to exclude those who dissaprove from the "inner circle of thieves",
but it's there, none the less. As for CP, If there's an unbreakable scheme,
I've never heard of it – nor do I expect to. CP starts out with something
broken before it leavves the manufacturer…
The reasonaing behind it.
–Ben–
Of course we don't allow copying of non-copy protected software, but it is much
harder to control. The officers keep an eye out for copying of any type. We
can't be everywhere (We're not Big Brother). I know for a fact that several
pirate-types have left the user group due to this policy. Again, our policy is
an act of good faith toward the various dealers who support the group. They
come in and are allowed to give a short sales pitch and often donate two or
three titles which are given away by drawing. They look around and see what's
going on. Appearances are everything. I'd rather have them see our membership
showing off 'Boingthrows' rather than having them seeing and hearing Marauder,
even though most of those same dealers sell it.
However, if people come together at a meeting and decide to go to their
homes and have group copy session, then that's their business! My
responsibility ends the moment the meeting is over. If I'm visiting at a
member's home and I see they have an illegal copy of something, I am not going
to say: 'Bad member, Bad!' and then call the author, police or anyone else. It
is their personal matter. If you want to guarantee that software will not be
pirated, then build include the cost of a 24 hour security guard in your
software. I'm sure that it won't be illegally copied then:
"Hallo, Ich bin der Himmler Protektion Kompanie, und vee are chekking an
unser softvare!" 🙂 🙂 -Greg
We attempt to control software theft at our general meetings by not allowing
copying of _any_ kind.
As for your 'responsibility ending' when the meeting ends, I consider that to
be a cop out. It is _every_ citizens duty to report crime whenever/wherever it
is encountered.
Ignoring the situation comes _very_ close to condoning it.
I know it's difficult to be a _crusader_ and to bash software theft (people
will begin to think you're a little off your rocker), but as I've said before,
the answer is education. If WE do NOT educate whenever opportunity presents
itself, then WE are not doing our part.
Good. The next time you speed on the highway report yourself to the police and
ask for a ticket.
I could get legal and imply that because the pirates make contacts at your
meetings then the club is an accessory to the crime just as the bar owner who
sold beer to a person who goes out and kills with his car cause he was drunk.
Prosecute the satellite TV people. People who tape TV shows and loan them to
their neighbors. People who put leaded gas into a car with a catalytic
converter, etc.
To you, a developer, things are white and black. Its legal or illegal. Theft
or non-theft. To me there is a considerable amount of grey in between: Should
you prosecute a member whose Workbench disk goes bad and
1Ub member makes
him a copy? Technically, Yes. Morally, No. All a club can do is take a stand: A
moral position on copying.
It's been eight months since we instigated our no-Marauder policy. I have yet
to catch anyone copying commercial software at one of our meetings. I'm sure it
has gone on, but I haven't seen it. I have seen people bring stuff that I know
that they couldn't have purchased. Even if they told me they copied it
illegally, I could do nothing. That is heresay evidence and to file charges, I
would have to actually see them copy software they did not own.
Finally, no one is the perfect citizen. I do not and never have condoned
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pirating. Period. But I am not going to act like the Gestapo either. You want
to really stop copying then ban Amigas at your user group meeting.
-Greg
ps: you're lucky I use Whap! as I was really hot at first!
I counted on you using Whap! <grin>
First……when I speed, I do it in public, for all people to see. I do NOT go
speeding around where no one can see, nor to I try to hide the fact. I seem to
collect one speeding ticket every couple of years, generally for going 65 MPH
on a highway (California freeway) designed to be driven safely at 100 MPH.
Second…..I never said that it was a black-white issue. My stand as a
developer/publisher is rather lenient. I believe we (Metadigm) have made it
quite plane that our current charge for updates (which is $5 to put the latest
version on _your_ original disk) is just to handle the administrative costs and
return shipping. We have told people in the past, that if they have a later
version than their friend/associate/whatever then to feel free to copy the
latest version onto their friend's original disk.
This will NOT be the case for our NEXT update of MetaScope which will be
a MAJOR upgrade. We will be asking ALL MetaScope customers to send in
their original disks to receive this update (and the new manual).
So your case of someone who is 'known' to have a legal copy of a program which
has been damaged/lost, I go with what I believe is the 'moral' answer and would
probably help them obtain a replacement copy.
Thirdly, as president of the local user's group, I feel it is my duty to
mention (from time to time) that software theft is wrong. I do it at meetings
and have, of course, taken some flak for it. The 'anti-piracy' clause was
already in the written rules for the running of the club before I
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ever became associated with it. It was put there by the founders, non of whom
are developers. I concur with that stand. It was a point which I established
_before_ I joined the club.
P.S. I was not picking on _you_ when I made the comments, and I was hoping
that more people would jump when I sent the last message <sigh>. Apathy, IMHO,
is one of the reasons we still have the problem.
Since we are leaving our dirty laundry out for everyone to see I will confess
that my position on Workbench1.3 was made for the same reasons: to stimulate
discussion on the topic. I am not as hard line as what I portrayed.
-Greg
Taking a public stand as an officer in a users' group is one of the best things
to discourage piracy. By simply stating the position at meetings and informal
get togethers, you can begin the conversation that software piracy is wrong.
While this won't do it all, the conversation must be begun before it will be
heard.
-tc (VP, Cleveland Area Amiga Users' Group)
P.P.S……please do NOT infer from my P.S. that I believe _you_ are apathetic.
5'PALX'h90W</+Ko>^LtPb8-Aug-88 21:00:27
I wonder if you were at their home, and you saw a stolen diamond necklace, if
you would call the authorities. Or a woman tied to a chair, bruised and
bleeding. Where do you draw the line? –Ben–
Could I prevail upon you for copies of both your "Articles of Incorporation"
and your "by-Laws". I forsee the time when Amiga Friends must incorporate and
dread the writing of these two documents from scratch. If they are NOT in
machine readable form, let me know, and we can work out some arrangement to pay
for shipping, copying, etc.
Vic, it may take some time. We are incorporated as a not-for-profit
organization in the state of Ohio and that was handled by a lawyer-friend and
it may take several weeks to get ahold of the right people. I do have a copy of
our club conststution, but only a printed copy. (I have an OCR at work, maybe
it'll read it). -Greg
My club has strict rules about piracy, too, Greg. There is nothing in our
library that is commercial. Not even programs typed in from magazines, since
some magazines object to that. I think most clubs have such rules.
Of course, we cannot control what members do outside club meetings and make no
attempt to. Almost every club DOES have someone who prides himself on his
ability to break protection schemes, but not during club meetings.
I agree with you 100% Betty. I am done on the subject. 🙂
-Greg