#Imagine?? How is it?
26 messages in this thread
I'm new to this product and would appreciate someone giving me the lowdown on
it. I'm an IBM comp. user who isn't too impressed at the raytracing/modelling
software out these days. They're either too expensive or not very good. I've
heard some nice remarks about this one but no real info.
-Vic
IMHO, Imagine is the best all around package for modeling, rendering, and
animation on the PC. I haven't used the other PC packages, but I have used some
Mac stuff a little bit; I have extensively researched the feature sets and have
read many opinions and gripes about other products:
Calagari- Limited features, a Toy.
Playmation- Slowwwwwwww rendering.
Pixar Typestry- Only useful for simple font animations. Uses renderman,
beautiful output, but redefines slow rendering.
3D studio, TOPAS professional- Choice of most professional PC animators. Both
have feature sets roughly equivalent to Imagine, but cost as much as your car.
Good third party support for special effects (cost as much as your boat?).
With apologies to Impulse, The manual for Imagine leaves a lot to be desired,
at least for a beginner. The user interface and manual both use Amiga
terminology and conventions, which I guess is revenge for all the Amiga bashing
that seems to go on. After a few months of using Imagine and figuring things
out, I now go back to the Impulse manual and find it quite helpful.
In general, I find that any thing I can think of to do, there is a way to do it
in Imagine. It's not always obvious, though, and there are a few bugs here and
there. Keep in mind, this comes from a very inexperienced 3-D person (very
experienced with PC's though). I found that I spent the first few months ready
to throw the computer out the window, then had an aha experience. I am now
doing paying work with Imagine.
Regards,
Ed
Jeez, that describes my experience with Imagine (v2.9) exactly, except I
haven't got to the point where I can say aha, but I am eyeing the window a lot!
I really want to like this program, but I find it incredibly obscure from an
IBM PC point of view. I mean, when am I going to use HAM mode? And what's a
drawer?
Actually I know the answers to the last two questions, because way back when I
used to own an Amiga 1000. But I just wanted to point out the overly
'Amiganess' of the PC product.
As far as I can tell, this is a really neat package, but for the PC's it has a
long way to go in terms of friendliness. Maybe 3.0 will take care of this? I
am still a little unclear as to whether v2.9 is an actual release or not, so I
will wait a little while longer.
You can consider Imagine 2.9 a pacifier. It's to keep both PC and Amiga
users a little less anxious until 3.0 is ready for release. Personally, I
love all of the improvements over 2.0.
When I first bought Turbo Silver (eventually to mature into Imagine), I
knew I was looking at something that was going to be rather steep to grasp
onto. The grand thing about the seeming user-unfriendliness, is that what
it really means is that you have almost omnipotent control of what you
want to create. That makes the pain of learning it, much more palatable.
My understanding of what Impulse intends for Imagine 3.0, is to make it
much more user-friendly for the less experienced and yet retain all of the
ability of tweaking things, here and there, for the more experienced. The
3.0 manual is supposed to be much improved over the old ones.
According to Impulse, you can send in your upgrade fee now and get 2.9,
and then they will send you 3.0 with manual when it is ready, at no
further charge.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
I don't mean to give the wrong impression. I agree that Imagine will be
extremely powerful after I figure it out. I mean, look what was done with the
ray-traced jogger (file TESTRU.GIF). That was amazing.
My questions regarding the PC version surround the use of Amiga-specific jargon
(drawers, HAM mode, etc.), that is going to turn off people who don't know
diddly (and don't want to know) about the Amiga. I want Imagine to do well,
so I can be part of an ever larger community of people sharing ideas, and
especially sharing a common language, Imagine.
Thanks, Adam.
Well, you'll be seeing alot more cross-platform software and hardware in
the near future. The Amiga 1200 and 4000 use a datatypes system which
allows you to add little modules. The modules in turn, allow the Amiga to
directly load and use picture/sound data into Amiga software without
having to emulate a PC or Mac.
The advantage of having Amiga-isms in your PC Imagine, is that you can
share what is created on the PC or Amiga. Since Imagine has a long history
of use with the Amiga, you will benefit from tutorials and pics that the
Amiga users can share with you.
Don't worry about Imagine doing well. PC raytracing software can be
through the roof on pricing and, as you know, not only is Imagine cheaper,
it is extremely capable software.
For the user-interface, it isn't really Amiga style. Impulse wanted to
take their own approach to gadgets and the like. AmigaDOS windows and
gadgets are not so heavily embossed. I'd like to think that the gadgets
were patterned after gold ingots, an indicator of how precious the
software is. *B^)
I'd like to see some of your work, sometime. You can ul some examples
here, when you feel you have something you'd like to share.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
If I get anything worth showing done, I will certainly force it upon an
unsuspecting CIS public. <g>.
Thanks for a thoughtful reply. I do look forward to playing around (and
getting serious). [BTW] what was the "*B.." thing you printed. Did your
modem go south, or was that some cool 'in' symbol I'm not familiar with? <g>.
Thanks, Adam.
You COULD always send a copy of any of yer Fave images/animations you've
done to Jerry Hatchett for inclusion on the "Amiga Gang II" Video. No
one's making any $$$ off it but it lets us see each others work. Even if
all you have is a series of stills. show each still for 5-10 seconds then
cut to the next. If you have no way to output to Video, I'll be happy to
output Still images for you to Tape.
<Impatiently awaitng the Completion of the Tape!"
Hmm, sounds interesting, but I'm really not ready yet :(. I appreciate the
interest though, Thanks, Adam.
No problem Adam, Hope to see some of yer work soon tho.
It's symbolic of a facial expression. In this case, hair, glasses, nose
and mouth. To see it, look at it with your head tilted to the left.
*B^)
See me smiling??
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
Ok, I got it that time. I know about faces, but I couldn't figure that one
out. I'm the guy who stares at those 3d posters (the ones that look like
Picasso threw up on them), and still doesn't get it.
"It's a SHIP you idiot!" Adam.
Adam,
I know how you feel. I've read about SIRDS's (Those 3-D posters that look
like Picasso threw up on them) for years, yet was unable to "see" them. I felt
terrible. Then one day, I tried again, for a full minute this time. And IT
HAPPENED. The feeling was dizzying! Here are some tips: first of all, look for
a nicely-framed SIRDS, front glass and all. Then, get something small and
bright, like a white pen for example. Stand about 5 feet away and hold the pen
vertically against your chest. Concentrating on the pen's reflection, adjust
your eyes until the two pen images merge into one. Hold this position for a few
seconds, then move your gaze up just a bit. If you're lucky, your eyes won't
lose the artificial focal point and you'll see the SIRDS's scene in all its 3-D
beauty. One final note: if the SIRDS looks like blue-and-white marbelized
paper, the 3-D scene of, say, dolphins will look like blue-and-white marbelized
dolphins. This may sound obvious, but part of what kept me from seeing the 3-D
scene all those years what that I expected the image to resolve into a
grey-scale rendering similar to all those 3-D images I'd ever produced. I had
no idea that the objects would be covered in textures similar to the patterns
of light seen on underwater objects.
Blaq!
NONONONONONONO Vance, gotta push the "Amiga Gang II" project hehehehehehe
Get as many folks as possible on their. Even if all they have is a
slideshow of stills! I am going to try talking Greg Tsindilla's into
sending in some work as well.
Well, at least I'll have something for Amiga Gang III. I'm going to be
doing a 5 minute demo video for my boss. He's lined up a script writer and
such, for it. I'll be handling the technical end of it.
It should be interesting to see what the writer comes up with. My boss
wants to get it put on local television when its finished.
It'll be ALOT of fun editing the bloody thing. I have one AG-7500, which
means I can do assembly and intert editing to a master tape. Oh well, at
least I don't have to worry about generation loss… *B^D
When it's finished, I'll see that we strike a couple of S-VHS copies. one
for the TV station and one for the Amiga Gang III video. Just remember one
thing, if you think the storyline sucks, don't blame me, ok? *B^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
No problem Dude, if the Demo has a Babylon 5 Suckatude I shan'yt blame
you. I'll merely ogle the Graphics just like I did when I watched B5
Adam,
Just a quick reply, you are correct that there are some absuridities
with the reference from one computer to the next. At most important point is
this., We converted Imagine to the PC so that the AMiga users would be able to
use it on a lower cost faster computer, we did not give too much thought to the
PC user and the kind of interface he or she was used to. 3.0 Takes out the
offensive references but keeps the same interface on both computers so that
people can cross over with out having to learn a whole new product. Believe me
it would have been much easier to throw out the interface and start over with
the PC> We however felt it important to keep continuity with both cpus.
THe manual can help as well as the other two books, Understanding
Imagine by APex software, dont know if it is still in print and Imagine
companion 2.0. We have this one in stock, the cost is $24.00. Need one call
us at 800 328 0184.
Version 3.0 will have a great manual and several new support products
such as the New training tape series form VRS media. Mr. Rick Rodriguez is a
close friend of mine and I know him to be a professional at creating exciting
video for training.
I am sure that there will be a host of products in 94 to make using
Imagine a real breeze.
Stay tuned, it only gets better from here.
Mike
Adam,
The Imagine 3.0 manual is completely in the hands of a professional
writer (Phil Shaddock). Phil is a PC only writer, well known for several
books published by the Waite Group Press. The Imagine manual will be
written for both the PC and Amiga user in mind. All terms specific to
each platform will be defined appropriately. I have read four of the
chapters and I will be responsible for at least two. Phil's writting
style is very clear and concise. I personnally believe that the software
bundled with the new manual will elevate Imagine to the number one
position that it has always deserved to be.
Alan Henry – Digital Plastic
F-100-PW-200 Inside
Great, I am very glad to hear it. Please, lots (any?) of screen shots. I am a
programmer myself, and since I work for a smallish company, we write a lot of
our own documentation as we go along. Personally I think the users suffer for
it, although I try to give as much info as I can, It's definately not a full
time effort, and it leads to user frustration and loads of phone calls to tech
support (guess who does that also.).
Here's waiting in a hopeful manner Adam.
Oh, and my favorite quote from the Lucasfilm game Sam & Max: Sam: You look
good lttle buddy. Max: I'm a coffee acheiver, Sam.
<<Please, lots (any?) of screen shots.>>
Phil's last book, "3D Modeling Lab," was based loosely on Imagine 2.0. In
it, there are probably no less than 100 screen shots and color plates of
rendered images. I feel confident that the Imagine manual will be no
different.
Alan Henry – Digital Plastic
F-100-PW-200 Inside
I "upgraded" to 2.0, but was thoroughly annoyed by the Amiga docs, the general
bizarre quality of the documentation, and the lack of (functional) DXF support,
which is important in the DOS world. I recognize it has a good
price/performance ratio, so I'm waiting to see what develops with 3.0.
>>3D studio, TOPAS professional- Choice of most professional PC animators. Both
have feature sets roughly equivalent to Imagine, but cost as much as your car.
Good third party support for special effects (cost as much as your boat?). <<
One feature set you neglect, which in the real world is vital, is the effect of
massive market share, which ensures third party software/hardware support. 3DS
in particular is benefiting from this. Just recently, XAOS signed on to
develop IPAS effects, as just one example. It's a tradeoff, but in the long
run, its probably worth the extra money to go with 3DS, if you can afford it.
I can't yet, so I'm looking to see what Impulse provides in 3.0.
David,
Market share. Which market, todate we have sold over 300,000 copies of
Imagine on the AMiga. I trust that this figure compares well with 3DS. I
would also make note that while there are not numerous 3rd party products here
is a list of some off the top of my head.
VRS designer objects disk
Humanoid
Essence Textures (soon to work with 3.0, I trust)
Syndesis Rom of objects
View Point Objects
Cycle Muscles
Various seemles images products
Whats more important is that the IPAS routines while powerfull are more
expensive than the update to Imagine 3.0 from 2.0. Imagine was introduced on
the AMiga in advance of 3DS and to date 3DS has had little if any competition.
Out friends on the AMiga have made us aware of the problems with
Imagine and have supported us over the years. I assure you we have learned
from out mistakes as with the manual and look forward to your response to 3.0.
Its not a horse race yet as to who is going to win the 3D wars on the
PC but I can assure you one thing, Impulse is going to enter the race and give
it a run for the money.
Mike
Mike,
I've actually had the pleasure (umm, sort of) of using 3D Studio R3, which
has its own funky approach to things. I'd say Imagine is equal both in
rendering and effects, however 3DS is a better behaved DOS program. This has
really only happened with version 3.0 of 3DS, and you've managed to fix most of
the serious DOS bugs in 2.9, I just wish it were compatible with my Novell
drivers. Not so much for distributed rendering (although I want that <g>), but
for file storage – Netware handles big drives, over 1 gig, *much* better than
DOS. Imagine just won't run with the network shell loaded.
While not many Imagine users have Novell networks at home, I bet a lot of
potential Imagine/PC customers have them at work, especially the ones that have
seen me working with the software. They all dig the price, the speed, but then
they ask if there are any conflicts with network drivers. That's it, end of
story. For the price of 3D Studio, they can buy 4 copies of Imagine – and no
dongle – except that there's no way to utilize a centralized storage area, and
not many users really care to reboot their machine to load and unload a set of
drivers (even though it is easy to use DOS 6 config menu option).
Well, I know you're busy, just figured that I'd put a little bug in your ear
every 3 or 4 months and if enough other people catch on you might find the
time…
keep working on Imagine
Andrew.
>> 3D studio, TOPAS professional- Choice of most professional PC
>> animators. Both have feature sets roughly equivalent to Imagine,
Dunno about Topaz, but 3D has some more features than Imagine 2.0. Especially
the movements are better in 3DS. But I think Imagine 3.0 will be a true
competitor.
-David
>IMHO, Imagine is the best all around package for modeling, rendering, and
>animation on the PC.
For the price of Imagine, I will agree.
>3D studio, TOPAS professional- Choice of most professional PC animators.
>Both have feature sets roughly equivalent to Imagine, but cost as much as
>your car. Good third party support for special effects.
I am not familiar with Topas but I have played around with 3DStudio and I
must say that it IS a VERY powerfull system. It is far beyond what Imagine
is currently capable of doing. IPAS routines, Network rendering, ect…
make it a very capable package.
I mention this because you said 3DStudio and Topas `Both have feature sets
roughly equivalent to Imagine', in some cases is true but most cases those
packages are ALOT more powerfull than Imagine. I am not trying to bash
Imagine, I really like it, but I feel I must be truthfull.
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
(Any render time >0 needs acceleration.)
Tony,
Once upon a time when I actually went to school, a English teacher
chewed me out becuase in my term paper I used the word GOOD and ALOT. He asked
on a scale of 1 to 10 where does good fall on that line, is it 8, then is great
10, well where is wonderfull and amazing and astounding, and the list went on
and on. I don't agree with you that Topaz or 3DS are ALOT more powerfull, they
have some features like Network rendering, we will have this feature, they also
have a slower rendering time in Trace mode than does humble Imagine.
I still think that some people respond to price and not performance, I
have had a copy of 3Ds for some time, it is a capable program but……. it
does not compete with Imagine in price performance or many of the new features
of IM3.0.
Never the less, if you are a professional in the business of using 3D
software to make a living, then all of these programs are tools and are not
ones you compare, they are ones you use.
Just my thoughts.
Mike