#PGM Out Routing?
29 messages in this thread
On the program side of my monitor I have a JVC BR-S822 SVHS editting deck
and a JVC TM1400SU monitor. I generally have the program output going
direct to the deck and the monitor fed from the deck's monitor out
connector. This means that when I want to use the Toaster prior to taping
(e.g. Toaster Paint and Lightwave rendering) I have to disconnect the
monitor from the deck and connect it to the program out of the Toaster (I
don't like running the deck as an amplifier only). I'm curious about the
cons of running the Toaster program out to the monitor and looping that
thru to the deck. Is there any greater losses than going direct to the
deck from the toaster?
wmc
Well, I'm not from NewTek but might throw in my two cents worth. If your
monitor is a professional grade monitor (mine are not) then you might be OK
looping through. If it is not then you probably ought to do two things to
insure maximum quality tape output and flexibility.
First, DO YOU HAVE ANY MONEY? There is a firm, CCI Electronics (they
advertise in Video Toaster magazine) that makes a device that takes the
composite out of the Toaster, splits it into Y/C and filters the HECK out
of it and then outputs to Y/C. It has multiple outputs but I am not sure
if one of them is composite or not. Their number is 800 331-8333. The price
is fairly steep (about 700.00) but I hace talked to the designer of this
product (Don Cardora) and he used to be at CBS labs for years upgrading
3/4" machines with his circuitry. He tells me that there is an especially
pressing need to include this device in the signal path from the Toaster
going to any Y/C deck due to the fact that most Y/C machines are built to
talk Y/C and have composite only as a fallback. My AG-7750 noticeably
degrades the composite input.
Another thing to keep in mind is whether or not your monitor provides a
straight loop through that is non-filtered. Don tells me that the Toaster
output is fine but that it needs to be converted to Y/C and laid to tape
with absolutely nothing else affecting the signal.
Good luck.
Jim Roof
Video Graphics Associates
The monitor is a professional monitor with inputs (and loop through) for
either Y/C or composite.
I will probably give the CCI folks a call. However, most of the customers
I have worked for so far can't take S-VHS. Even some subcontract work ro
another post facility that has S goes out of their place in straight VHS.
Now, as for taking the Toaster output to Y/C, I'm not sure you gain
anything. After all, since the output is slighlty higher than broadcsat
resolution, transcoding to Y/C will not add any detail that isn't there
already. Then if you have to transcode again to get a VHS tape, I'd be
eilling to bet that the final VHS output is less crisp than if you took the
composite from the Toaster. The reason I say this is because the final
resolution that you get is calculated just like the resistnance in a
parallel circuit:
(1/Rfinal) = (1/Rdevice1) + (1/Rdevice2)+…(1/RdeviceN)
So the more devices in the path from original signal to final ouput, the
lower the resolution will be. So even if you take the Toaster and
transcode to say 450 lines, by the above equations you final resolution
will be a little lower than if you skipped that step altogether. Were it
not so, most people would run the Toaster output to a transcoding TBC then
to their S deck.
wmc
Wayne,
The problem is with the composite input to the 7750. I am losing a good
deal of resolution in the composite in. IF I can convert to y/c then I can
bypass the relatively poor composite encoder and have a much better tape. I
know that this brings more circuitry but in effect it also skips one
process, that being the composite circuits in the 7750. I am going to give
it a try. The difference between my preview and program monitors (they are
identical and I have reversed them to check it out) when running through
the composite side of my deck is noticeable from eight feet away.
Let me hear if you know of anything else.
Thanks
Jim Roof
Well, maybe if we keep writing letters, NewTek will come up with the S-VHS
output add-on that I heard they wer developing last year. (Could have been
bogus info, but it was from the same guy who told me about the color
deskjet 18 months before it hit the market.) I also understand that the
Toaster is D-2 internal. So it seems that D-2 to Y/C should be no more
difficult than D-2 to composite.
wmc
Wayne,
I spoke to NewTek recently and they gave me a number for a firm that is
soon to release a y/c converter for the Toaster. The guy at NewTek said
that the product is being developed using Faroudja circuits and should be
out in about 4-6 weeks. Here's the number – 913-235-3481. I probably
should have waited for it but went ahead and ordered the device that I
spoke to you about in an earlier message.
I am curious. Have you heard much about the Lightwave upgrade? I have
picked up bits and pieces and if what I hear is legit it will be a major
deal. Here's a few things that I have heard:
1. User definable variable anti-aliasing in ALL resolutions.
2. Optimized for '040 use
3. Option for non ray-traced shadows
4. Cubic environmental mapping (a la Caligari)
5. Faster in general with some new rendering buffer dealie
Here's a few that I am secretly hoping for:
1. Background and foreground image scripting
2. More polygons
3. Support for JPEG output
4. Allowing for texture maps to be parented to objects, not just the
world coordinates
Oh, I forgot another one I heard. Something about generalized motion blur.
I'm curious as to what you've heard.
Back to my modeling career.
Jim Roof
Jim, All I've heard is that there was an '040 optimized version in the
works. But I keep handing them suggestions via this forum, but never hear
back if they even got them. I'm hoping for alternat coordinate systems
(Polar and cylindrical), absolute position option as oppose to dispalcment
in point/polygon move operations, addition of select surface to the point,
polygon, and volume select area, lighting envelopes (seperate envelopes for
R,G,B and/or intensity) lights you can see with the camera and the ability
to specify the corona fall-off and type (rays, spherical, elliptical),
non-rigid body animation (e.g. easy set-up of a banner being spun on the
end of a pole in a figure 8 – this may be just easier morphing, I don't
know) straight surface morpphing and a few other things I asked for but
can't remember – oh yeah, import and extrusion of CG fonts directly.
I printed your message. Thanks for the info. wmc
Thanks for the response back. I hope things go well with Lightwave. I
read today some talk (Amiga World) that Lightwave upgrades may be issued
independant of the total Toaster Package. I think that this makes a lot
more sense. From a marketing standpoint it may seem to be a blunder but I
really don't think that it would be. Rather than wait a year for a 500.00
overall upgrade, I would be willing to shell out nearly that much for a
couple of Lightwave upgrades. let's face it. There just doesn't seem to
be much action on the cutting edge of character generation!
I've used some CG stuff in lightwave but just by creating a page then
making a brush and using this as a transparency map. It looks OK until you
start to get too close. I have to always remember to turn specular
highlights completely off as transparency is not the same as invisibility.
I'll let you know what I hear.
Jim Roof
Wayne,
I have much contact with NewTek and will be happy to pass on any LW
suggestions you have. I did see your list a while back.
–JG
John, Another one:
Let the foreground key feature be "enveloped" so that the key acn be faded
in. It would be neat if the background behind a foreground key could be an
image sequence. Better yet, let a forground key animation in which there
is no background provide a "hole" that can act as an animated art card
wipe. The implementation of the "clear Black" button described in the docs
on surfaces would b nicee too.
Also, a scene saver utility would be nice. SOmething to go through a scend
file, list all the components (objects, surfaces, images etc) and allow you
to move/copy each item to a different location from which they can be
reloaded into the proper directories so that the scen could be edited
later. If theree was a compression/decompression option it would be nce
too.
Oh, there is a lightwave bug to report. If you terminate a frame rendering
that you are recording to disk with the <ESC> key, the file is left flagged
"in use". Lightwave will nott re-record over it and you cannot delete the
file without exitting the Toaster and rebootin ght machine (or editing the
file descritor block or FAT or whatever its called in the Amiga, to
indicate "not busy").
wmc
Wayne,
Foreground key envelope is a good idea. You can use a sequence as a
background image right now. Also, Allen knows about the flag bug and I
believe it is fixed already.
–JG
Here's an idea that I mentioned a while back. Why not have a background
and foreground script from which the foregrounds and backgrounds could be
controlled on a frame by frame basis, ie., image one is for 10 frames then
image two for 5 frames, etc. It would also be possible to do simple
transitions from one image to another such as dissolves by implementing
dual background "buffers". I'm pretty sure that an Arexx master could get
this to happen now with something like Imagemaster. Just exit the port
when one frame is rendered, IM would manipulate the file and save it to the
same name and Lightwave would behave as if nothing had happened. Actually I
gues the frame would have to be saved as the next in the sequence.
I really feel that from the standpoint of graphic design, an inflexible 30
fps sequence is too much trouble for too little good.
Hey, is there a utility that could be used to take one object, analyze it,
then make the necessary changes to a second object so that it could morph
successfully? I bet that would be a pain. Maybe someone could come up
with a set of 'Morphabet' fonts with the same number and order of points
and polys in each character.
Hey, I got a million of them!
Jim Roof
Wayne…
The toaster is D-2 Internally. There are some 3rd party people working on
S-VHS in/out boards for the Toaster. Hopefully soon… –JG
I know D2 is digital but thats about all. Is is R-Y, B-Y seperated, Y/C?
And can these 3rd party card/devices access the D-2 and do a D-2 to Y/C
transcode without the loss of trying to transcode/encode the composite out
to Y/C (which, if calculation is correct would result in a maximum of 240
lines of resolution)?
wmc
Wayne,
D2 is digital composite, not component. Sort of a digital version of
one-inch.
It's D1 that is digital Y/R-Y/B-Y. D1 machines are about double the price
of D2 machines.
And yes, D2 machines have all the same limitations insofar as wanting a
component output: they just don't work that way.
Pete
Hi my name is don and I also have 7750 but do not exp the same problem you
did. When was your deck last serviced?
– via Whap!
Well, to be honest, my deck is brand spanking new! I guess I'm just a real
stickler for details.
Wayne, I think you would find that there is no discernable loss using the
loop thru of the monitor. It makes it slightly less convienient when you
want to look at the output of what you've just taped, and for this reason
you may want to consider some sort of routing switcher, a simple passive
unit will do nicely. I'm not certain of your particular monitor model, but
on my my JVC TM900SU I have three monitor busses, A,B (both composite loop
thru) and a YC. This allows me the luxury of monitoring both the output of
the toaster out of my waveform (first thing that looks at Toaster program
out) on the A channel, the composite out of my deck, and an additional
Y-358 monitor source whenever I need to use it. For those of you
interested, this monitor also has blue gun, BW mode, underscan, and pulse
cross. I liked this one so much that I just replaced one of my larger Sony
models (a consumer 20"trinitron) with an additional TM900SU. Loop thru mode
is specifically designed not to degrade signals, just be careful about
extremely long cable runs which can add delay to the signal. Most pre-built
cable lengths (under 15 FT) will be ok.
Frank, I've got the 14" version of that same monitor -TM1400SU. One
feature I've found especially handy is the underscan button. (Speaker is
nearly useless though…).
wmc
Wayne, I know what you mean about the speaker, but in a way it gives you a
real worst case scenerio to use for accurate mixes of music to voice for
TV. I normally record voice and music on seperate tracks, then when doing
final mix, use the JVC's crappy little mono speaker as a mix reference,
works like a charm. I must say that in the bang for the buck department the
JVC monitor kicks over the Sony, but the Sony has "mo betta" color on green
stuff. Both my JVC monitors tend to go a little overboard on the lime
greens, my Sony on the other hand appears to have a better balance in that
department. Each manufacturer's idea of color phospher accuracy is
subjective. One thing for sure, using the JVC's blue check mode on color
bars hits dead on accurate according to my vectorscope. So when I haul one
of my monitors out on location it's very easy to set up for accurate color
using the bar generator in my camera. Mostly I end up at the factory
detents, but there are occasions when I've had to overdrive the little guys
because of high ambient lighting at the location. All in all, I think I'm
very happy with the JVC stuff.
Frank
Frank,
Ditto the happy with JVC stuff. I have, in addition to the TM1400SU, two
BR-s622s and one BR-S822 S-VHS decks. I have their TCG and TBC cards
installed as well. The controller on the 822 is adequate for cuts editing
(controls one player via RS-422 as well as the 822). My only complaint is
that the menu set button is under the flip-up control panel. Gotta get on
my hands and knees to set it as my decks are mounted in racks under a
desktop. Great output tho…
wmc
Sounds like a terrific setup, I think the swing out panels are removable,
if so you could get better acces. BTW, do you mind if I ask how much you
laid out for the 622/822 combo?
Frank
From my local dealer, 2 622s and one 822, one TBC card and 3 TCGs with many
cables thrown inclusive of CA tax $15,550.20. It was purchased under the
EUI program and he passed much of the discount on to me. He has also had
me give them a class in Dpaint IV in return for several days use of a
KY-17, battery packs and tripod. He has also given me various brands of
tape to try out. So, eventhough I could have gotten away about $800
cheaper mail order (due to the stupid CA tax) I think getting it through
the local dealer was the way to go.
wmc
Wayne, you'll never get any argument out of me when it comes to going with
a local dealer when you are getting into something which might require some
amount of learning curve. I think you did well on your prices since the 22
series is a hot item and the dealers aren't really discounting them yet.
Regards
Frank
Frank,
I went flipping through some stuff looking for a price on the monitors
you and Wayne are discussing with no luck.
Before I get interested in these monitors can you give me a hint as to
the price?
The NADs I use were the best consumer monitors, but I just read what the
difference of the pro stuff is. I didn't know what I was missing.
–Paul Still on AutoPilot
Paul, the list price on the 9" JVC is $615, the 14" is $755. These are
RETAIL LIST, I paid about $350 each for the TM-900SU. You'll have to check
with Wayne on how much he paid for the 14. There are higher dot per inch
specs on these pro monitors than on consumer units, for that reason alone,
I think they are worth looking into.
Regards
Frank
Thanks for the info. Is there an industrial dealer in our area with floor
stock?
–Paul Still on AutoPilot
Paul, you might try Walt Davis in SF. If he can't help you out try Horizon
Pro Video in Santa Clara (408) 955-9801. He isn't the guy I got my monitors
from, but he carries JVC. If you are interested in the type of pricing I
got, you have to get to an industrial house in the midwest, they seem to
have lower prices on JVC.
Pulsecross is also nice! –JG