#Legal Animators
17 messages in this thread
I run a small company in Iowa which is just starting to get business for
courtroom animations. The most recent case involves reconstructing a murder
scene involving about eight gang members. I have storyboarded out the animation
to help myself price this out. I would like to get any input as to what this
type of animation is commanding as far as price goes. I figure this animation
will involve about 4 – 6 different views based on different eye witness
testimony and would last maybe 3 – 4 minutes. There is no real tech info such
as distance traveled, obstructed views, etc. to figure, just the movement of
who was where, and when.
Any suggestions appreciated
Thanks,
Paul
Regarding your pricing question: There are two distinct parts to a project, the
modeling and the animation. I always break these down as follows: I charge a
per day rate for the modeling, plus a separate per second rate for the
animation. This covers you nicely; in case they decide to cut the costs by
cutting down the number of seconds of animation, you are still covered for the
modeling time.
I would price your project like this: Base fee for modeling: How many days to
make the model * how much money you like to make per day Animation: How long
the animation is in seconds * a per second rate
The per second rate is determined by how long it will take to render it, how
long it is (the rate goes down for longer animations), your client's budget,
and how much you want this job. <g> This is a long, simple animation, you are
a small company with a small overhead and probably not a terribly generous
client. I'd charge anywhere from $20-$200/second depending on what the client
can afford and how hard you plan to work. Others on the forum with very
professional setups may scoff at this low-end pricing but I say pah! to them.
Sample pricing: say it will take 3 days to make the model, and your company
likes to make $800 per day, so that's $2400 for modeling. 4 minutes of
animation = 240 seconds * $50/second = $12,000. Total price = $14,400.
This, of course, is a vague estimate. My prices vary widely depending on my
mood and my financial status. <g> The only hard-and-fast rule is to separate
the price of modeling from the price of animation in the quote to protect
yourself.
Michele:
>> Others on the forum with very professional setups may scoff at this
>> low-end pricing but I say pah! to them.
Well, pah! pah! to you too! <g>
Greg Pyros
>> pah!
I was wondering if you would respond to that. <g> No, that remark was aimed at
people who say, in a superior voice, "I *never* charge less than $500/second
for 3DS animation" and then you find out later that (a) they never get any 3DS
work or (b) they regularly give "discounts" after the client rejects the
initial quote. I certainly love those clients with money to spend, but let's
face it, once in a while you have to take that dinky little job that is just
about going to cover the phone bill and will keep you busy until Exxon calls
back about the 3-hour, 8 billion dollar animation you bid on last week. <g>
Michele
Michele:
>> I was wondering if you would respond to that. <g>
Wouldn't miss an opportunity to 'pah!' back to you!
Actually, we have been known to take some of those 'pay the phone bill'
animations ourselves! But remember, with nine lines into the office now,
our phone bills can get pretty high!
Greg Pyros
Michele,
Good points. That's basically how I price my animations for video. $ for
creation, then money for per finished second. @$100 p.f.s. is about what the
market pays here (up to $250).
Out of curiosity, is legal animation your main business? and where are you
located. One of the biggest hurdles I have found is that this area has not used
animation before, so everyone is a little cautious not to spend money on
something they may not get into the courtroom. What is your view on that – have
you had most of your work submitted or have you run into problems?
Thanks for the info.
Paul
Sorry, have never done a legal animation. There must be someone around here
who has, though.
The pricing structure we've been talking about really applies to any animation
bid.
Michele
In addition, I would suggest you avoid using 50PMAN or other "realistic"
humanoid models, and make simple puppet-men from cylinders and spheres. This
will save huge amounts of rendering time. You can always save this little trump
card for the negotiation stage so if the client balks at the price you can say,
"Well, we can cut the costs by using these simple little men…" and bring the
price down to what you were going to charge in the first place anyway.
Michele <me, I *never* do things like that>
I was planning on using mannequin for the human models. Everything I have read
says "keep it simple"
The mannequin models are pretty heavy-duty in the faces/vertices department.
You can make a simple man model from cylinders and spheres that will represent
a person just as well. There is a detailed description of how to create a man
like this in the Morphing & Animation book, part of the 3D Studio Tips & Tricks
Series. It's available from Opamp books (800) 464-4322. I should know because I
am one of the co-authors. <g>
Michele
Paul
One thing to be aware of, lawyers I have found take forever to pay. Make sure
you get an up front retainer, (they like that word), that will at least cover
your expenses and your modeling time. Make sure that you get payed upon
competion and not upon completion of their case. I have some legal animations
that have taken as much as 6 months to pay. On the other hand they are used to
high hourly rates. They are my only clients that command higher rates than I
do and their only overhead is thier pen and office.
Andrew McCalry Graphic Alchemy
(I'm not a lawyer, but I married one, and into several…) Actually, the
up-front retainer is a kind of insurance policy. People in legal trouble have
a tendency to disappear or go broke. Lawyers like to be paid, too. And if it
takes six months for them to pay you… then they haven't been paid for that
long, either. Their "only overhead is their pen and office"? Is that all that
your lawyers have in their office? I doubt it. By that logic, all you have is
your computer and monitor. Ask them about student loans sometime. 🙂
John:
>> Lawyers like to be paid, too.
Why should they be any different from the rest of us? <g>
>> And if it takes six months for them to pay you… then they haven't
>> been paid for that long, either.
As long as you know and understand what you are getting into from the
beginning and want to, this is fine! But I won't bankroll a (usually much
larger) client!
My job is to create animations, not loan them money, which is what happens
when they stretch out their payments. Always have a hefty interest charge
in your contracts, to make it cheaper for them to borrow the money
elsewhere. Face it, I still need to pay my employees and phone bills, etc.,
so when the job is done and my creditors come around, I can't tell them to
wait, I have to borrow the money myself. Someone needs to pay for this!
Greg Pyros
I wasn't saying that I encouraged people to accept these payment terms! If
these lawyers are good enough to secure large retainers, smart enough to hire
computer animators, then trust me, there's no reason they can't pay you up
front, in the middle, and at the end, in cash.
John
>>Ask them about student loans sometimes.
I hope you are not suggesting that lawyers have more education than the
the people here on the form.
I'm sure I'm not the only one still paying off my education.
Carl
Good point. I have not yet discussed the terms of the $$, but with animation I
always work on a pay upon completion basis. I think a 25% retainer was what I
was thinking for this case.
Paul
My 2 cents worth…
Pricing is THE WORST part of preparing these kind of animations. When we priced
our first animation, we GROSSLY underestimated the time required to complete
the project. However, it turned out to be an advantage because the state
informed us after our bid that they were not going to pay over X dollars for
the project. Our bid came in at X- $10 !!!!
Also, the exposure is probably worth a reduction in price. Our first animation
drained our financial resources because we underestimated the price, but it
bought us huge PR stuff ( like a cover story in CADENCE (7/93) and a week of
lead stories on the local news) and more cases. In addition, the fact that you
will be the first company to introduce such technology in your state is
probably worth a few lost $$$s also.
Finally, on payment, I think an up front charge is mandatory. We were paid
before our video was admitted here in Utah, however, if we had not been paid
and it had been thrown out of court I'm sure there would have been problems
collecting.
I could drone on all day about this (especially on what happens to your life
when somemone charged with 4 counts of murder walks and you prepared the
animation for the prosecution), but I'll stop now.
Kent