future of education
21 messages in this thread
Help,
I am in need of some brainstorming and educational jargon for a future schools
grant. What or how do you see education changing as we better integrate
technology in our schools????? In particular the growth of school and
community wide networks and phones and interactive cable TV. and the Internet
highway and MOSAIC type services. How will this change how we teach and learn.
What will access to VR do?
If you have ANY ideas on how you would make education
better in the future classroom via integrated technology please feel free to
brainstorm here.
Thanks in advance
PAT
PAT,
I find your question on the future of technology and it's impact on education
thought-provoking. 1/2 of me wonders of the inhanced eduactional envirement,
while the other 1/2 ponders the business opertunities.
However, both miss the real issue. Todays problem with eduaction, as a whole,
is not the lack of technology… thats too convienent! Especially to the 1/2 of
me interested in the business opertunities.
The real issue is the message, not the channel or way it gets to the intended
audience. What would be more interesting (Selfishly) would be a discussion on
the problems with the messages and information we all are bombarded with.
Eric
PS What kind of grant?
Pat – BIG question! Have you thought of posting it on the Education Forum as
well? (GO EDFORUM).
Dave
Pat,
I would imagine that new schools built a few years down the road would not have
a traditional libaray. If so, maybe a small one. Each classroom would be
wired to the world so to speak. Computers, phones, video, etc. in each lab
would give students access to the knowledge withing reach of the fiber optics,
satellites etc. Each student will be able to have instant access to much more
information than a traditional library offers.
Labs in schools will have many electronic "toys" to play with. Students who
are given a project will have access to a variety of media and devices that can
assist with research, compositions, lectures, videos… and get questions
answered from a variety of sources, independent of the "teacher, or guide."
The teacher will become a "director, or resource person", who can assist
students with learning basic concepts, techniques, and procedures, then turn
the students loose to apply those techniques. Research, problem solving,
working in teams, assembling information into new formats (reports,
newsletters, drawings, slide shows, animations, videos, etc.).
None of which are my original thoughts.
Shoe
Hi Pat,
Eric makes an interesting point and I think it is headed in the right
direction.
He makes a point about the message being wrong. I would like to expand that to
focus on the idea that it is misguided and that is root of its wrongness. I
feel that the focus of education over the last few decades or more has been the
educators focusing from out side in. Basing the needs and directions for
change on the teachers conditions: unions, hours, resources. The usual response
when questioning the education system or methods seems to be an excuss of "well
you don't understand how hard …..".
The potential impact for technology on education excites me a great deal. Now
don't get me wrong, I tend to agree with Eric that the technology itself cannot
make an crooked company straight, or bad message good, or a poor teacher great.
I believe that the technology will however push the emphasis back to the
learning experiance, from the learners perspective. These wonderful new tools
will allow children and adults alike to have more control over what they
explore, experience and learn. I believe learning is a very natural act and an
inate part of our lives. Unfortunately the naturalness has been sacrificed
with our current systems for the sake of the systems. New tools will empower
the learner and creative educators (who are also just as much learners). The
system, the unions and the sour grapes in the system will resist and try to
control the education or learning process, but I believe that technology will
empower us all to be both educators and students. Anyone able to put together
a powerful multimedia presentation, software package or illusion will be able
to contribute easily to the cause, especially when the data hiways open further
to make knowlege acessable on a truely global level.
Learning (and I prefer this term to education because of the emphasis of focus
on the student as apposed to the teacher) is nothing more than one aspect of
our growth. Technology is one result. As with all things they have the
potential to be of positive or negative value. I think it then must come down
to your own outlook on the future. If you have an optimistic view of the
future it is very easy to see the wonderful potential of technology. If
however you have no hope for the future I am sure technology likely scars you
from all angles not the least of which is education.
With regards to VR we need to look no further than the simple Lemonade stand
software, that came out years ago, to appreciate VR's potential. Image for a
moment a Virtual Corporation created to simulate the going ons in a large
business environment. When 'Billy' puts on his VR gear he immerses with the
rest of the class into Big Corp. VRinc.. Once inside the company the students
interact with other students and more importantly the rest of the employees at
Big Corp.. The other employees are virtual simulations of real life mangers,
secretaries and the like. Instead of six month Co-Op programe in business
admin. you can go on a six hour virtual workday. The decisions you make while
in this virtual company while doing your virtual job would give you immediate
feed back, possible the ability to replay and try a different decision and see
the difference in outcome. Big Corp.'s losses don't come out of anyones pocket
and no harm is done. The VR environment offers amazing posibilities to the
creative of mind to allow for the experiance of information and in this way
acquire knowledge in a new exciting way.
I will stop the ranting and raving here and hope that I have provoked a
though or two.
Dwayne.
Dwayne,
Thanks for the support. I firmly beleive that the measages we send are more
important than how the message gets there.
Eventhough technology will make accessing info …easier, the same screwed up
messages will be now only be more accessable. Agreed, for some, the increased
access will be a major step, however, not enough people are discussing the need
for information to become…more better(?) <G>
Hi Eric,
I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say:
>> Eventhough technology will make accessing info …easier, the same screwed
up messages will be now only be more accessable. <<
What screwed up messages are you reffering to? I do not see information itself
as the screwed up message, but I do see the presentation or delivery of it can
be a problem. When we impose our oppion on others there is a problem in
delivery. Each individual (adult or child) has the natural ability to reach
conclusions on available information. Perhaps where we go wrong is in the
belief that we somehow know what the information 'really' means and feel others
should know and believe this also.
Please do not miss understand me Eric. I am convinced that most of the
problems in society, …. and education are based on the fundamental
misconceptions in the individual. If you are equating "messages" with
fundamental principles used to guide one's life, I too agree that this is
ultimately of greatest importance. Where some difference might exist is our
beleifs on how indivduals (and society) can change this for the better.
Personally I believe each individual has the potential to develop and send the
right 'message'. The support system or the education system in this case has
IMHO the simple responsibility of making an environment conducive to learning
and encourageing the student to grow.
If you give someone the appropriate information regarding gravity they will
understand gravity effects. The only way in this example I can see the
'message' being a problem is if you provide incorrect information or partial
information. After that it gets back to issues of interest and attention of
the learner. It would appear that the education system today suffers in both
of these regards. I guess I have a very optimistic view of human potential and
ones ability to discover a good message given all of the available information
and resources.
Dwayne.
Let me further explain.
Maybe I'm reaching but…If you agree that there is a problem with today's
education system and it isn't the lack of technology or poor information
channels, and we're not having trouble getting the messages to the students
and, we are in fact getting the messages we intend to send to our students
then, the problem can only be faulty messages, right?
For example: Are we teaching future CAD operators the importance of ongoing,
self-education and how to creatively think and be more able to adjust to
upgrades or variations in applications or, are we teaching them to use AutoCAD
R12 win?
Recent Headlines
Olympian skater plots against teammate
Wife cuts off husbands manhood
Brothers on trial for death of parents
Political figure testifies under oath that he lied
Coach punches member of same coaching staff
Lack of ethics & morals being taught in schools
Religious leaders pay millions in sex abuse settlements
Safe Sex education
Death Rate & Hand Guns
To compound the problem, how do these events calculate into the processing of
all the information our students are bombarded with daily. I've heard that my
son is bombarded with more information in one day than my grandfather was in
his entire lifetime! The question is how are we equipping our students to
effectively process all of this information?
In turn, it's also understood all of that these headlines are to be considered
"reality" and should not be covered up. However are we also providing ways of
processing all of this information and formulating appropriate conclusions.
In addition, from what I understand, the current educational system is based on
a 1940 model when over 85% of the population went on to labor intensive
occupations and less than 15% went on to "white collar" work . Today, the
ratio's are just about flipp-flopped. Most well paying jobs are going to be in
the "White collar" categories. Isn't there an inherent problem?
Additions to future Subject Offerings should possibly Include:
Small Business operation
Federal Employment Success
Reality of Corporate America
Applied Values & Ethics. Importance of the "Good Life"
Keeping up with Technology
Opportunity and how to find it
Chance and its rewards
Mentor/apprentice programs
Decision making and responsibility
What do you think?
Eric
>>Maybe I'm reaching but…If you agree that there is a problem with
today's education system and it isn't the lack of technology or poor
information channels, and we're not having trouble getting the
messages to the students and, we are in fact getting the messages we
intend to send to our students then, the problem can only be faulty
messages, right?<<
I do believe you are reaching, I am still unclear as to what you are
reaching for.
>>Recent Headlines Olympian skater plots against teammate Wife cuts
off husbands manhood Brothers on trial for death of parents Political
figure testifies under oath that he lied Coach punches member of same
coaching staff Lack of ethics & morals being taught in schools
Religious leaders pay millions in sex abuse settlements Safe Sex
education Death Rate & Hand Guns<<
Again I ask, What messages are you reffering to? Are these the messages? But?,
schools do not publish headlines, at least not where I come from. (Although
quite a few are now making headlines.)
Yes, these are horrendous problems without a doubt. Do you blame these
problems on the educational system? What did they teach YOU in school <g>.
Sorry, but I see these problems as much more far reaching in cause than to
blame any Board of Ed. Yes, education is one method we have at our disposal to
change, and yes there are many, many problems with the education system we
have, but to blame everything that is wrong with our society on the education
system strikes me a tad bit extreme. I feel our societies warts are more
likely showing in our education system than to finger schools as the cause of
all that is wrong.
>>Additions to future Subject Offerings should possibly Include: Small Business
operation Federal Employment Success Reality of Corporate America Applied
Values & Ethics. Importance of the "Good Life" Keeping up with Technology
Opportunity and how to find it Chance and its rewards Mentor/apprentice
programs Decision making and responsibility<<
Hey right on! Good start. I think technology could help good people implement
these things. Hell with the right kind of tools we might be able to choose the
direction and content of our own childrens learning process while at school.
Hmmm? I wonder how many parents would actually get right into this one if it
were posible and how many would simply select the "DEFAULT" course selections
for the appropriate year?
Dwayne.
>> I do believe you are reaching, I am still unclear as to what you are
reaching for.
>> Again I ask, What messages are you referring to?
Okay, let me try to help make it… more clear. To begin, perhaps you
don't agree with my first assumption. Maybe YOU DO feel that our
educational system, in general, IS doing a wonderful job. You've
previously stated that…
…"If you give someone the appropriate information regarding
gravity they will understand gravity effects. The only way in
this example I can see the 'message' being a problem is if
you provide incorrect information or partial information. After
that it gets back to issues of interest and attention of the
learner.".
Does this infer that you feel all schools should do is give out is
statistics? Heck, just give 'um the facts, right? Perhaps its just
that type of thinking that is part of the problem. After all,
wouldn't the "somebody" in your example be better served if you also
taught them How to Apply the reality of gravity? How to USE gravity
for ADVANTAGE? Or was your assumption that each individual can
process and apply all this information themselves? After all, its
just an issue of interest and attention, right? WRONG! THAT"S what
I'm reaching for! I don't believe that it is just a matter of
interest and attention. The ability to digest, store and use all of
the information we're bombarded with is just that, an ability or for
that matter, inability. I don't believe that we are supplying our
students with the "Skills" needed to apply and process all of this
information effectively.
>>Yes, these are horrendous problems without a doubt. Do you blame
these problems on the educational system? What did they teach YOU in
school <g>.
No. I don't blame the system. I'm NOT INTERESTED IN BLAME. I'm interested in
reform! My point is that all of this CRAZY information must be effectively
dealt with. What I'm most interested in is setting our students up to win, not
simply not to lose.
>>Sorry, but I see these problems as much more far reaching in cause than to
blame any Board of Ed.
>>…but to blame everything that is wrong with our society on the education
system strikes me a tad bit extreme.
Again with the blame thing. Why so much attention to who's to blame? Also,
your basis for reasoning and logic seem somewhat off center. How you can
equate anything I've commented on with blaming a particular Board of Ed. is…
faulty reasoning.
>>Hey right on! Good start. I think technology could help good people
implement these things.
Again, if the lack of technology isn't the current problem with our educational
system, how can future technology, alone, help solve the same problems? You're
close when you touch on "…content of our own childrens learning process…"
however, to a large degree it doesn't matter if the "message" is in form of
crayon & paper or some wonderful form of technology, it's the message that is
important, not the messenger.
Eric
Dwayne:
I have some definite opinions on the topic of education, especially in regards
to software.
When the tools we used in our jobs were "hard" (typewriters, pencils, etc.)
access to the knowledge of how to operate these tools was accessible. You could
go to a library and take out a book on typing, rent or buy a typewriter, and
learn how to type. The same was true for drafting. A straight edge, some
squares and a pencil, go to the library and teach yourself. Self improvement
was possible. With a library card and a bit of initiative.
Now that the tools we use are "soft"( WordPerfect, CAD, PhotoShop,
etc), public access to these tools is no longer possible. Education
has been replaced by Training. To get training you have to pay. Who
do you pay? MicroSoft, Autodesk, Bently Bros. or their
representatives. The software companies have even got the governments
of Canada and the US to enact laws to protect them from evil people
wanting to learn.
The Software Police recently busted an operation here in Victoria. Guess what
it was? A Training Centre.
It is no longer possible to educate a person without paying money to Bill
Gates & pals. In the eyes of the software companies it doesn't matter if the
product you purchase is used for education or for profit. You still have to pay
up.
You will tell me that educational versions of software are available.
You can count them on one hand. And it isn't mandatory.
What if you aren't in school? What if you are just trying to keep pace with
the industry? What if you are unemployed? What if you want to keep from getting
laid off by learning new skills? You are out of luck. Pay to play they'll tell
you.
People who have initiative and drive and are interested in improving
themselves and do not have many thousands of dollars are forced to pirate
software, and xerox manuals. There is no alternative.
We have allowed the software companies to rob us of our ability to educate
ourselves.
J.F.
Joe, Joe, Joe…
Camon!
>> When the tools we used in our jobs were "hard" (typewriters, pencils, etc.)
access to the knowledge of how to operate these tools was accessible. You could
go to a library and take out a book on typing, rent or buy a typewriter, and
learn how to type. The same was true for drafting. A straight edge, some <<
I think we are being a wee bit narrow! Most libraries still have books on most
trades and careers. Hell some even have video tapes! And please tell me where
exactly did people go before they had libraries or Rent-alls? Excuse me sir
could I rent a horse and plow? Or better yet could I enroll in that two day
canoe and trapping course of yers?
>> Self improvement was possible. <<
Ah come on, try it you'll like it! I think you might find that although still
a really tough thing to do that self improvement is most certainly still
possible. The only one making it impossible for you is you.
>> Gates & pals. In the eyes of the software companies it doesn't matter if the
product you purchase is used for education or for profit. You still have to pay
up. <<
Yeah, so whats the problem? Do you not expect to profit from your education or
are you simply learning for the betterment of man kind?
>> People who have initiative and drive and are interested in improving
themselves and do not have many thousands of dollars are forced to pirate
software, and xerox manuals. There is no alternative.<<
Whoa!!!! Stop right there! NOT!!!! I know things are tough, I know that it must
be difficult getting out of school in this job market or lack there of. I know
it is difficult to be unemployed and have very few companies with jobs
available. However, people who truely have initiative and drive and are
interested in improving themselves pick themselfs back up after being knocked
down time and time again and look for new solotions and take control of their
own circumstances. I think you will find greedy and weak people give up and
look for easy ways out.
>> We have allowed the software companies to rob us of our ability to educate
ourselves. <<
Sorry, don't think so. I have not allowed them or anybody else to rob me of my
ability to educate myself. Sounds to me like you gave up before you started.
Really Joe, I have seen some of the other messages you have written
and the replys you have received and I am sure it must seem like most
everybody on this forum is a jerk and can't understand where you are
coming from or someting. The truth of it is most of the people here
were not born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouths. Most
of the people here and arround you have experianced the
disappointment of discovering things did not turn out the way we
expected. What they are saying to you is catch your breath, wipe your
eyes and get back out there and do something about YOUR situation.
Use your imagination, try something different. Maybe the path to
success does not conform to your specifications. That does not mean
that there is no path to success, just means you have not figured out
the right combination yet. Hell if it were as easy as I once though!
Oh well, experiance shows me it is not. That is no reason to give up
on your dreams. Make new ones. Be creative, comprimise, maybe just
maybe you'll get a break. Stop whining and looking outside of
yourself to place the blame on someone or something else. It sounds
like you need some experiance in the work place not with software. Go
get it!
Dwayne.
Sorry Joe if you feel I am out of line. I am not trying to attack
you. I am just trying to explain the way it looks from this side of
the screen. And in case you are wondering, yes I am a software
developer <BG>.
Dwayne:
Your perception of the universe is not mine. I recently lost a
chance for some work because I had no experience with Claris CAD. I
tried to learn it. I rented a computer 'cause I didn't have a
MAC($280), got onto MACAPS forum and said "okay guys, how do I learn
Claris CAD". I couldn't buy it, borrow it, rent it or find it at the
local library. The usual response was "there is a good on-line help
file". You tell me the solution. The software companies have
brainwashed people into believing their garbage about copyright. How
about copy-responsibility. Make it possible to learn without copying
or buying and I'll listen. Making a living is not the same as making
a profit. If that were true then every pilot would have to own the
plane that he flies. That would be interesting.
Joe,
I'm probably going to regret this but:
It seems to me that your really asking for someone else to provide you with
something you yourself have to provide.
That is… not Hardware or software…but is in fact "Direction".
It appears to me as if you are at a real loss as to what it is you really are
interested in doing. Why would anyone want to learn more than one CAD
Package…this logic is suspect in my book!
Why do you think doctors Specialize?
I would suggest that you pick a vertical market you yourself are happy
and content with and work the hell out of it. Your current messages
seem to me to be very General and the specific "Actual Work" very
non-specific. What the heck do you enjoy doing? Specifically…Not
Generally! Do you like Architectural WorK? How about Mechanical?
Do you really want to be an Animator….What Kind?
Once you get down to they "actual type" of work, go further in to the
vertical until you find something you like to do day and night and
seems more like fun than work.
I get the impression that you've never enjoyed anything you've "tried"
so far to date and wish to put the Blame on somebody else. Frankly
Joe there are a lot of people on this forum that can provide you with
a great deal of help once you deceide what it is you really want.
Until you figure that out nobody can help you. This is only my
personal opinion and I speak for no-one but myself… I'm just
getting a little tired of the whinning <BG>. Ya' Life's a
Bitch..then Ya' Die….Play Past it Joe! Play Past It! Murph'
James:
I've been working 25 years and fortunately have spent most of that
time in work that I enjoy. I have been doing drafting and model
building for both architects and engineers. The problem I have is
that I can't get enough work these days. The engineering model
business has all but evaporated, replaced by a variety of 3rd party
CAD programs.
<<Why would anyone want to learn more than one CAD Package…this logic is
suspect in my book!>>
The reason to learn more than one CAD program is so that I can expand
my client base. If there are 100 Engineering companies and 75 use
AutoCAD then I have a potential client base of 75. If I know all of
the major programs then I'll have a potential client base of nearly
100. Which is the size that my client base was before the market was
fragmented by CAD programs. All I'm really trying to do is keep up.
The programs used to develop 3D plant design models are all Third
party applications. Not taught at local colleges.
I know exactly the work I want to do and the programs I want to
learn. The problem is that learning them is impossible without a fat
bankroll or an employer who is willing to pay for training. I posess
neither. I started this discussion in the hope that this problem
would get some air and perhaps some potential solutions would be
discussed. Instead I get chastised for whining." You'd whine too if
it happened to you"…L.Gore<g>. J.F.
You see Joe….It has happened to me, In fact it's happened to ALL of US! It's
called "change".
I'm of the opinion that we're here to "help" each other but not beg for
handouts.
The point is…What are _you_ going to do about it?
We all can complain about reality it's what we do to adapt to it that makes or
breaks us.
I'm feeling kinda poetic now as a scene from one of my favorite movies comes to
mind.
The quote goes…"Character is what you are in the Dark!"
>> The reason to learn more than one CAD program is so that I can expand my
client base. <<
I don't get this…How many things can you do at one time?
Get the first job first! Then work on how your gonna work with their particular
CAD Package…I think someone mentioned this once before but once you've got a
basic knowledge of how to use one CAD program there isn't really much of a
curve on everyone elses variations.
There's usually five ways to do the same thing in AutoCAD alone…I know of few
people who use more than one…Ya work with what is reffered to as a personal
style. These CAD programs do give you a lot of room for this. After all
Autodesk hires people who worked for Intergraph Etc. Etc. the list goes on…
do you suppose that could happen if the CAD Programs were all that different?
I'm beginning to sense that there is something else that your having trouble
with maybe it's change…I don't know it's really not my business. Stop worring
about your "potential client base" and just go after one job at a time..and
keep priming the pump..don't quit…works for me!
You know there is no such thing as your clients or my clients if you don't get
that then I can see where your having a problem.<g>
Murph'
James:
I welcome change. I started taking AutoCAD classes several years ago when I
saw what was happening in drawing office. I took all the courses I could find.
I bought a computer(I bought Tony Hotchkiss' old 286), some affordable
software(Generic CAD) and (several computers later) eventually found some work.
I moved to Victoria last August and have been basically idle ever since. I
almost had some work last month, but due to my lack of experience with Claris
CAD didn't get it. That's when I realized that even if I wanted to, I couldn't
learn Claris CAD legally. Since it wasn't sold anymore and no local colleges
taught it I was out of luck. This situation seems wrong to me. I believe there
should always be a path a person can take to learn the tools that the workplace
requires.
That's why I bring this topic up. I'm looking for practical solutions to a
real problem. So far in all of this discussion I haven't heard a single one.
You still question the need for learning more that 1 CAD program. Well, imagine
you have 2 resumes on your desk and one knows the program that you use and the
other doesn't. All other factors bieng equal(experience, etc.) who would you
hire?
J.F.
Joe – this is starting to get old…
> People who have initiative and drive and are interested in improving
> themselves and do not have many thousands of dollars are forced to pirate
> software, and xerox manuals. There is no alternative.
Wrong! People who have drive etc will find a way, and people who pirate
software and xerox manuals are crooks.
Dave
> Wrong! People who have drive etc will find a way, and people who pirate
software and xerox manuals are crooks.
Bravo! I couldn't agree more.
Dave: I realise this thread is getting old(so am I), plus my head is getting
sore from banging it. So this is it.
>>Wrong! People who have drive etc will find a way, and people who pirate
software and xerox manuals are crooks.>>
In all the threads of this discussion not one person has described
"the way" to learn software without buying it. You know as well as I
that Community Colleges are good only for Intro courses to mainstream
programs. Should it really require such an output of energy and time
to acquire the tools that are required today? Shouldn't it be easy to
learn, rather than incredibly difficult and expensive?
BTW I think Cadalyst is an excellent publication and I never ever lend it. I
always say "Get your own subscription"<g>.
J.F.
Joe –
> BTW I think Cadalyst is an excellent publication and I never ever lend it. I
> always say "Get your own subscription"<g>.
Glad to hear it!! (I'm a contributing editor <g>)
Dave
PS – You mentioned Victoria… B.C.? I'm in North Van.