#VTR Skipping Frames
24 messages in this thread
Hi All,
I'm in the market for a USED VTR and was told tht NOTHING lower than a Beta SP
wou do REAL frame accurate work.
This guy told me that an SVHS deck would DEFENETLY skip frames, and I guess,
ruin the whole animation.
Can anyone here tell me if this is true?
Thanks in advance.
Alex K
Alex,
The only frame skipping I've heard of on svhs is from a power out. I don't
believe beta will stop that.
Rick
Thank you, I appreciate your prompt response. It is always good to
know that there's you guiys one can count on. I've heard about the
Sanyo unit. Do you know if this is a good unit to purchase? I have
$3000.00 with which to buy a VTR new or used, any suggestions?
Alex,
The Sanyo units won't be shipping for a couple of weeks. I'll be selling them
so I will be glad to talk to you as to what I feel their capabilities
are….once I get my hands on my dealer unit!
This may take several weeks. I wouldn't rush out and spend any money until
several of the forum folks get a chance to share their views about the unit as
well.
For What it's Worth.
James M. Murphy
James Murphy Consulting
(414) 435-7345
Green Bay Wisconsin.
Thanks James.
However, I got a tip from a "old timer" who told me to simply stay away from
those new "I-can-do-it-all" units that haven't been tried, and to stick with
something that will take the punishment like a BR-S811U or a 5570 or 5770.
Thanks though.
Alex K.
That would be news to me and the probably thousands of people out
there using hi-8, S-VHS, CRV. Certainly 'ruining' would be a strong
word. Beta SP is the best analog tape format around, but at $25K and
up it's not very available to everyday use by PC animators.
John,
>> Beta SP is the best analog tape format around, but at $25K and up it's not
very available to everyday use by PC animators. >>
I think I agree on the first point (best analog) although 1" is not
dead yet, but there is a popular "industrial" BetaSP deck the PVW2800
which I have used a few times which retails for around $16k. Back in
the old days <g>, animation houses would have long debates over
whether to invest in a CRV (and rent a betaSP deck when needed) or
buy a PVW2800 and transcoder combo. Now, IMHO, the debate is probably
moot because the best quality and value for money will be for small
outfits to put their money into a motion JPEG card (for a dynamite
preview method and possibly final output) and an Exabyte combo (best
possible final output to BetaSP, D2 or D1). This will give them
potentially far better output quality and for a fraction of the
money. I'm glad I didn't go ahead and lease a CRV now.
I'm probably going to be assailed by outraged CRV or PVW owners now,
but what the heck I'm throwing caution to the wind and a lively
electronic debate never hurt anyone <g>.
Martin
At that rate, why not just purchase an Abekas yourself? The new ones
they showed at Siggraph were in the $16,000 price range. Skip the
Exabyte totally! Ethernet input, and reads Targa files directly now.
Don't say I ever backed off from a good electronic debate!
Ahah! I had a feeling you'd have a good answer or come up with
another variable for the animation-to-video equation <g>. Good for
you! Well, the Abekas is certainly going to be tempting for animation
houses that have that kind of budget. Unfortunately, I can NOT count
myself in with that group. I'm more of a "shoestring" operation and
if I had bought or leased anything in the $15k region I'd probably be
bankrupt by now – my wife forced me back to earth on that issue,
before I made a potentially disastrous mistake <g>. Most of the
smaller outfits or freelancers are typically looking at a $6-8k type
investment in video equipment. The options discussed here over the
last couple of years were typically a frame accurate deck, e.g.
AG7750 or EVO9650, a framebuffer, and a single frame controller.
Recently, a new option is the Exabyte-to-Abekas method, and in the
next month or two, a motion JPEG card. Both well within the $6k
investment. Actually, that investment this still pretty steep for me:
the Personal Animation Recorder and an Exabyte 8500 may still be a
big stretch for my budget. I'd probably get the former first, since I
believe I could benefit it right now and then wait for a project that
could at least partially justify the purchase of the latter, since I
can probably manage without it for now. I don't think you could use
the latter very well without the former (or laying to say, hi-8 or
svhs) because of mistake potential.
This may be a bit of a dubious theory, but, a motion JPEG card may
actually SAVE you money in the long run, and time too, which we all
know equals money. This is because if you didn't have a frame
accurate vtr and controller before, the only way of previewing your
stuff was flics (preview type or quarter screen colour) and
full-colour stills viewed on a framebuffer. This is a pretty
hit-and-miss method and often you lay-off your video (paying somebody
for each frame) and then discover …. argh a mistake! Then you
re-render and pay the eager service bureau again! And maybe again!
Now, you probably would have caught this mistake if you could do
full-colour, full-frame, solid 30fps tests on your trusty faithful
motion JPEG card, AND, you would never have had to leave the comfort
of your PC to find out you'd made a mistake.
In conclusion, you could save time, money, sanity, loss-of-hair and
many other wonderful things. 'Course, if you are well-heeled you
already do this kind of high-quality testing, only with a CRV.
Remember the Caribbean project? We probably layed-off each scene 2 or
more times because of "anomalies" we didn't catch in our tests. The
first laying-off ending up being our high-quality motion and colour
test <g>.
Anyway, do you have any thoughts on whether field rendering will work
on the motion JPEG cards? Did it work on the Bandit?
Martin:
>> Remember the Caribbean project? We probably layed-off each scene 2 or
>> more times because of "anomalies" we didn't catch in our tests. The
>> first laying-off ending up being our high-quality motion and colour test.
What Carribean project? <bg>
I like the word 'anomalies' used to describe the reason for 2 or 3 or 4
layoffs! Oh, well, it was still a cheap and quick test! Only used up half
of one side of a disk, or around $100 worth. Not bad for a project of that
size with all of it's anomalies!
>> Anyway, do you have any thoughts on whether field rendering will work on
>> the motion JPEG cards? Did it work on the Bandit?
Works perfectly on the Bandit, can't speak for the others. The Bandit plays
back 60 fields per second.
Greg Pyros
Greg,
>> Works perfectly on the Bandit, can't speak for the others. The Bandit plays
back 60 fields per second.>>
That's good to know. Now, I will expect the same performance from the more
attainable DPS card.<g>
Pardon my intruding but your interest in the DPS PAR corresponds to mine. I
called DPS and got their literature very quickly. The first thing that jumped
out at me was that the basic card lists at $1995 but the plug-in DPS Personal
TBC IV is an extra $999. I take it that the TBC is required, or is that wrong?
When I called the local dealer (Portland, OR), they did not know that they
were a dealer. The person said that perhaps the Seattle office knows about it.
It looks very interesting. They list only one disk as being certified (as of
6-1-93) and that is the Seagate ST-3600A.
Hope you get one and tell us all about it.
Albert,
the basic card lists for $1995 and that allows creation and playback (not
capture) of it's PAR format modified motion JPEG files which can be recorded
composite, s-video, or betacamSP/MII. The TBC card addition allows you to
capture video and save it as PAR files. I like this approach because I could
buy just the basic card and add the TBC later on if I need it, or when my
budget allows it. Other manufacturers make you buy stuff you may not want or
feel you don't need for a _lot_ more money. For example, the Bandit by Fast
Forward makes you buy an entire system for their suite of cards in side and the
price is $5995 and that's before you've bought RAM or a hard disk. Matrox makes
you buy their Illuminator Pro (which is nice, but I already have a targa+),
before you can use the Movie Express JPEG card – probably a combined $5k price
tag, without hard drive. Another company at Siggraph called ASL of Irvine
showed a card for $1200 at Siggraph which seemed to be more in the mold of
"Video in a Window", actually several windows at once, on a 640×480 screen.
When I asked to see some captured video or animation played back, they didn't
have any. Hmmm, very suspicious….
Overall, I didn't see anything that I was as impressed with as much as the DPS,
but I would probably still want to have a 30-day money-back trial period to
make sure there were no hidden surprises. Alan Iglesias may be getting one for
review shortly, so I may be camping out at his place soon, since he lives
relatively close to me in San Diego environs.
Thanks for your encouraging response, especially about being able to delay
the TBC until later. I will.
I am having trouble tracking down a local dealer. If/when you buy, could you
let me know who? I may want to make contact. I have not seen any dealers pop
up here yet. Too early, I guess.
Looking forward to your real experiences once you start using it, since it
seems likely that you are buying.
Albert,
>> Looking forward to your real experiences once you start using it, since it
seems likely that you are buying. >>
don't hold your breath. This largely depends on how much work comes in and
whether I can get myself on firmer financial footing <g>.
Martin, as usual, I agree with you on all points. It's just that I
come accross 1" so rarely, since I'm just an ephemeral in the video
production biz. And for me $16K is a couple of yards out of reach
for now. I'd rather do Abekas, anyway.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
yeah, $16k is way out of my reach, too <g>.
Martin,
What the heck is a CRV? What is a PVW?
I agree, an Exabyte drive with the Abekas driver plus a realtime jpeg-type
output device with a decent SVHS or Hi-8 deck will be the next killer combo.
I'm glad I didn't lay down $nnK for a Beta SP deck or an LVR, however:
$2,600 Exabyte EXB-8500
$ 400 Abekas driver
$3,000 realtime video board
$4,000 S-VHS/Hi8 deck
———————
$10,000
Not cheap, but still cheaper than an LVR or a Beta SP deck.
Bailey
Bailey,
>> What the heck is a CRV? What is a PVW?
CRV (Component Recordable Videodisc) is the name for the technology that the
LVR3000, LVR4000, LVR5000 etc, decks use. PVW is short for the PVW2800 which is
Sony's professional/industial level BetacamSP editing deck.
>>I agree, an Exabyte drive with the Abekas driver plus a realtime jpeg-type
output device with a decent SVHS or Hi-8 deck will be the next killer combo.>>
Agreed, except by purchasing a realtime jpeg card you have supposedly avoided
the need to buy a frame-accurate deck. Instead you could use a consumer or
prosumer level vhs or svhs deck for less than $1k. I already own such
equipment. I really see it as an either/or proposition in my particular
circumstance: either a frame accurate s-vhs/hi-8 deck, vtr controller, and
framebuffer(I already have a targa+); or, a jpeg output card and the vcr you
already own. This is the marketing strategy that DPS and others have adopted.
Actually, with the new choices in frame accurate decks (Sanyo and Sony),
assuming you already own a framebuffer, the price difference is really not that
great and the choice not so clearcut.
Martin
Thank you John for your reply.
The guy you talked to is full of crap. I'd say the majority of people
on this forum use or have used SVHS, Hi-8, or 3/4" with success.
Thank you Angelo,
>>The guy you talked to is full of crap<<
I was affraid that that might have been the case (g) but wanted to check with
you professionals before I went and made any decisions on which VTR to buy.
Greg P. was talking about the Sanyo unit. I read a couple of reviews
on the unit pre-siggraph and they all say it's the PERFECT combo for
production and animation.
If anyone actually HAS the unit in their hands, I'd appreciate a
review… My budget is VERY limited, $3000.00 (I'm sure some can
relate) so I need to get something that'll do the work and that will
last.
Thank you.
Alex K
I was gonna say 'crap' too, but I was scared <g>.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
>> I was gonna say 'crap' too, but I was scared <g>.
A suttle, diplomatic tone has always been my stong suit <g>
Ang