#New 3D Graphics!
36 messages in this thread
MegageM announces two important developments for 3D stereoscopic graphics and
virtual reality applications on Amigas –
StereoPro Amiga is a joystick connector interface for 3D glasses which is a
plug-compatible replacement for the old XSPecs3D product which seems to no
longer be available. Comes with 1 set LCD shutter glasses, interface, and
software disk with PLENTY of great stuff (games, developer support, and … see
next paragraph!). Your response to AmiVR has been incredible and it is now
available at dealers and from Amiga mail-order outfits.
MegageM now includes a real-time double-buffered script-based 3D stereoscopic
drawing and animation package with all AmiVR and StereoPro systems. The
program is called SPX and it is an ARexx command interpreter which is written
in assembler for SPEED. You can do smooth animated wireframe animations in
true 3D for viewing with LCD glasses. It includes many convenient drawing
commands (line, point, box, gridded planes and boxes, swap buffers, and more!).
SPX automatically opens a full-screen overscan hi-res double-buffered
environment. Just updated to handle PAL, too! The commands are easy to learn
and use – and sample scripts come with it showing space-filling lissajous
figures and smoothly moving rectangular boxes in 3D – all happening in
real-time under script control. NIFTY!
And of course – we'll be showing all this 3D stuff at WOCA in PASADENA!
MegageM 1903 Adria Santa Maria, CA 93454 805-349-1104
See you there !
Daniel,
Is there a way we can view our LightWave objects in this environment?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
paul, you can do 3D modeling in stereoscopic 3D with Animatrix Modeler (which
does save in LW format and works great with our glasses systems). I presume
you're referring to the SPX program, though, which is an ARexx interpreted fast
animation and drawing package for stereoscopic 3D, not a LW modeler or anything
close to it. SPX is FUN! I have no idea whether you can figure out a way to
view LW objects with SPX, but I doubt it. Try Animatrix Modeler and pick up a
StereoPro Amiga or AmiVR system to use it with.
This sounds like a new hobby 🙂
Thanks for the info. Will I see you at WOC?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
INDEED you'll see me at WOC – Booth 323 just across the walkway from
Commodore's booth! Look forward to see you there. What new hobby? This is a
business! (grin).
Is it possible to get just the software for those of us who already have
X-Specs? 3D glasses are a pretty cool idea, but if the price is much over
$100 most people won't be willing to get them unless there is a lot of
software support for them. Unfortunatly X-Specs support in programs seems
to be on the way out. :^( If you could get support for the glasses in
Domark's Virtual Reality Studio that'd be a good start. You may also want
to send samples of your glasses to Impulse, Virtual Reality labs, and
Realsoft to convince them to add support to their products.
jeff, VistaPro already supports 3D beautifully (best implementation I've ever
seen). No my SPX program not available separately now – but I may consider it.
I wrote it to give AmiVR and StereoPro/Amiga users a cool system to try some 3D
animation stuff in wireframe. As far as I know, Imagine (from Impulse) supports
old XSpecs 3D image format and I provide info on how to use ADPro to convert to
our 'field-sequential' (video compatible!) 3D. I've heard VRS (from Domark?)
is really 2D and not 3D, but disabuse me of my misinformation if I'm wrong. I
have no idea what it does as a 'virtual reality studio'. Who is Realsoft?
Forget about XSpecs support. XSpecs does not exist anymore to the best of my
knowledge. You want AmiVR or StereoPro support now – that's what is now
available and it's better than XSpecs. LCD glases are LCD glasses – ours are
nothing really much different from old XSPecs glasses. I wish I could afford
to pass out free samples, but, welcome to reality (not virtual, financial!).
VistaPro HAS AmiVR/StereoPro support NOW and it's terrific. email me your
address and I'll send you info. PS, the PAR also seems to correctly preserve
the fields for our field-sequential 3D and I converted a VistaPro 3D pic I made
in 24-bit into a PAR still- store and it flickered just perfect for AmiVR and
StereoPro. Don't wait for Godot, get StereoPro or AmiVR and blast into virtual
reality with VistaPro (ScapeMaker will help, too!). SPX will get you going
immediately with moving stuff in 3D. Animatrix Modeler will let you model 3D
objects in true 3D, too.
You haven't mentioned how much you're charging for your 3D glasses, but
unless it's a lot cheaper than X-Specs was you're going to have a hard
time selling many of them. The problem with a product like this is that
it's more of a novelty item than anything else. I've had my X-Specs for
years and I've never come across an Amiga dealer who's even seen a pair
let alone sold one. (other than mine) The problem is that they don't want
to stock them because they're worried about getting stuck with a pair they
can't sell. They'll special order them for you, but who want's to spend
that kind of money on something they've never seen?
It's a shame you're not interested in selling your software seperatly.
You'll need quite a bit of cash to get the 3D glasses market off the
ground and I'll be willing to bet you won't be selling many packages to
X-Specs owners. (we've already bought into 3D technology that died)
If you were selling the software seperatly you'd be making at least some
money from X-Specs owners.
You say you can't afford to pass out free samples. If I were you I'd find
a way and give a pair to every magazine reviewer you can find. Unless you
can generate a lot of interest in your product you might find yourself
going the way of Haitex. Also, consider that a lot of your potential
customers may be waiting to see what Sega's VR headset is like. (due
before christmas) It's just a matter of time before someone starts selling
an adapter to use it with a computer.
jeff, I've got a lot to reply to here! I'll try to. You seem to be awfully
down on a product about which you probably know very little – and that's not
being mean. We've been running ads and getting other publicity for about 6
months and the response has been outrageously way beyond my expectations. CIS
doesn't want me using this as an advertising medium, but since you asked the
list prices are: AmiVR1 – $300, AmiVR2 $400, StereoPro/Amiga $225. VR1 has 1
LCD set and one 3D videotape. VR2 has two of each. SP/Amiga has no tape as it
a joystick-based interface (not video like the AmiVRs) and has the interface
and glasses. If you think it is too expensive, too bad. I wish I could sell
them cheaper, but it is not possible. Glasses are in very short supply, no
longer cheap $5 surplus items like they were in the days of XSpecs (which came
out just about when Sega and Nintendo gave up on the biz and practically gave
away their excess inventory). Now we're having glasses made up. SP/Amiga is
virtually identical to XSPecs3D in concept and function (and it is
plug-compatible). Perhaps Haitex is out of the 3D biz because they didn't make
money on 'em. I do and will continue to. Our main distributor took almost a
year to pick 'em up but they sold out of their first substantial order in 2
days. If you'd like to interest the magazines in 3D by giving out free samples
of our product, I'd gladly sell you all you want to give away at your own
expense, not mine. Don't be surprised if we are among the first to adapt the
Sega (vaporware) headset for the Amiga. Our product is available now. The
software SPX program comes with it, unlike XSpecs3D which had no similar
'use-it-now' 3D animation system. It isn't the be all end all, but it is fun
and it works easily. Thanks for the free advice. Unlike some businesses,
MegageM has been around the Amiga community for a while and we plan to
continue. That means selling the products for enough $$$ that we can make a
profit and stay in business and keep the products available. Wish that met
with your approval, but I won't take it too hard if it doesn't. AmiVR does cost
more than the old XSpecs, but it does way more and has more software support.
Nuf said. Try it, you'll love it! It is the closest to VR that you can get on
the Amiga NOW (not some time in the unforseeable future). We sure don't seem
to have any problem selling 'em!
Daniel;
Please break your messages into paragraphs. One continous message is hard
to read.
BTW, I think I remember your company from at least 4 years. Glad to hear
the products are selling well.
-bill
Thanks for the kind words, Bill. I do try to break things into paragraphs, but
CIS seems to mush everything together against my wishes! Maybe I need to skip
an extra line or something. I've never figured out how to format stuff right
on CIS. Sorry it was hard to read, but you seem to have taken the trouble…
Daniel;
You might look into getting AutoPilot, that will certainly help with the
posting problem.
Also, if you start a sentence with a period in column one, CIS will not
wrap the line back to the previous line.
Yes, I did take the trouble as I usually do try to keep up with the
activities of the Amiga Developers (particularly the ones that have been
around for a long time, such as yourself).
-bill
Thanks for the tips and the kind words. You're making me feel old, though
(grin). It hasn't been THAT long has it??? Just plugging along this long
strange trip with the Amiga. Somehow when you have to put food on the table
and pay the rent you discover that necessity is indeed the mother of invention!
daniel,
Use a dot (.) as the first character of a line to keep it from being formatted
with the one above it.
.
.
.Like that,
Chris
Thanks for the . tip, Christopher.
I think perhaps you misunderstood the tone of my message. I don't mean to
be down on your product. When I bought my X-Specs I thought LCD glasses
were a really cool toy and I still do.
However,
They're of somewhat limited practical value in my opinion. Yes, I've seen
Animatrix, Vision Modeler 3D, and even PageRender 3D, and while modeling
in 3D is an interesting concept I've found these modelers to be pretty
weak compared to packages like Imagine 2, LightWave's modeler, or Real
3D2. The stereoscopic animations you can do are pretty impressive but the
fact that you need a pair of glasses for each person viewing makes it
pretty expensive to show your anims to more than 2 or 3 people at once.
Added to the fact that most people I've showed them to get sore eyes after
about half an hour I still think of them as a novelty item.
If you're selling enough glasses to make a profit, great! I applaude you.
These days it's hard to find customers with a disposable income. They're
more expensive than I'd spend on them but that's mostly because there are
so many other toys I want more. (more memory, faster modems, better
graphics cards, ect) But that's just my opinion. :^)
By the way, if you do build an interface for the upcoming Sega VR headset
I'd be interested in buying one. If you've got any software to go with it
I predict that it'll be an even bigger seller than your LCD glasses thanks
to all the Virtual Reality hype these days. :^)
no hard feelings, jeff. MegageM is just a much smaller business than you might
think. No investors, no employees. Just one person without the means to
provide thousands of dollars worth of free 3D equipment to reviewers. I'm
trying to figure out a way to circulate a system round-robin to reviewers but
I'll have to draw lots … Fortunately this is a small enough outfit with low
overhead that I don't have to sell thousands of 'em to make a few bucks. So
far, so good. Problem with circulating glasses is that they're a kind of
personal item, like clothing. Might be sort of gauche to pass them around.
The interface is not the problem.
You can bet that MegageM will be among the first to try and figure out new
cheap ways to do VR and 3D. The SPX program which accompanies our 3D systems
is fun and easy to use for simple animations. To paraphrase Dr. Johnson, What
is Amazing is not that it is done partially, what is amazing is that it is done
at all!
I wish they were more affordable, too. Trouble is that when Nintendo and
Seganote that those HUGE companies flopped in the 3D business but we're still
here ….) dropped 3D glasses and dumped 'em for $5-10 apiece was when XSpecs
appeared. When the supply dried up of super-cheap glasses so did XSpecs (not
being down on XSpecs, but it appeared they didn't have the means to get more
glasses manufactured). My friend manufacturing this stuff is having glasses
made on contract. We'll keep the supply available and won't run away when the
going requires some investment. No way we can sell 'em for what they used to go
for when they were cheap surplus items.
I am committed enough to have spent time writing new software (still in its
early stages, albeit), namely the SPX tool. Demand will determine how much
effort gets expended on improving and extending SPX's features. Hope to win you
as a customer when your disposable income permits!
I bought XSpecs3D a long time ago also. Software support wasn't great. That is
changing. While Animatrix, etc. may not be as good as Lightwave in your
opinion, again I refer to the paraphrase of Dr. Johnson. And VistaPro 3.0 has
the best 3D capability I've ever seen. So … This is the future and I plan to
stick with it on the Amiga.
1. they aren't cheaper than XSPecs 2. they are selling! 3. They are not a
novelty. They're terrific! AmiVR gets you into video-based 3D in full motion.
Maybe XSpecs was just a novelty because it was tied to an Amiga and only still
3D stuff. That has changed with AmiVR!
X-specs was limited to still images? I wish I'd known that when I got
them. ;^) I've been making X-Specs anims since Turbo Silver 3.0SV was
state of the are in 3D animation. While you're right about the X-Spces
being tied to the Amiga you can record X-Specs anims to tape provided you
use a genlock to sync the Amiga to the tape when you record the anim and
when you play the tape.
Forgive my hyperbole about the 'still' limitation. AmiVR does eliminate the
other restrictions and needs for additional equipment that you've mentioned was
required with XSPecs. I also watched my first 3D videotape by playing it into
the Amiga through a genlock and running a long joystick extension cable out to
the livingroom to watch it on a monitor while relaxing on the sofa. AmiVR now
makes that MUCH easier and the 3D format we promote permits viewing with any
IFF viewer – no special 3D viewing software required. All in all, AmiVR is a
substantial technological advance. And I'm sure it will all go further. DPS's
PAR and Toaster work fine with this format, making it much easier for most
anyone to create 3D animation tapes. I'd sure like to see yours and might be
willing to add your stuff (the Turbo Silver animation 3D tapes you mentioned)
to our list of available titles – with some consideration to you to boot if we
like your stuff!
Also we do have equipment for 3D viewing by large audiences without everyone
needing a LCD shutter setup on their head. We do have large LCD shutter sheets
for projection TV systems (quite expensive though) and we also have
multiplexers for doing direct 3D taping from two genlocked cameras. AmiVR is
the tip of our iceberg.
If the LCD glasses are the most expensive part of your package perhaps you
should consider selling the interface and software seperatly at some
point. I've accumulated 3 pairs of glasses over the years and sold 4 other
pairs of X-Specs. Other X-Specs owners may have also picked up the Sega
glasses as spares. For us there's no advantage to buying the full package.
As for my X-Specs anims, I never bothered to dump any of them to tape.
Although I know how to do it and have done some experimenting in the past,
I don't own a genlock and it never seemed worth the bother of borrowing
one. After all, if I have to have the computer to view the anims why not
just play them off the hard drive? :^) Over the years I've needed the
hard drive space for other things so one by one they've had to go. While I
didn't bother to keep any of the anims I do save all my Imagine projects
and I could re-render any of them using DCTV and X-Specs if it were worth
my while. :^)
While VistaPro 3 do do nice rendering, a demo tape with nothing but
landscapes sounds a little boring. I've aalso been working with Real 3D2
and getting exellent results. If you've got an arexx script for making 3D
images and anims with AdPro why don't you upload it to Compuserve and
perhaps some of the animators here would be willing to do some anims for
you.
We do offer the interfaces separately. The glasses may or may not be the most
expensive component of AmiVR. The interface is not trivial. The software and
methods I've written for 3D image making is on the AmiVR disk, available with
the product. Hope you'll consider doing some of those terrific anims to tape!
Any chance of seeing MPEG movies for CD32 in true 3D? Or true-3D games on
CD32, for that matter? Having 600 megs of storage along with AGA and true
3D ought to lead to a relatively cheap yet powerful VR system.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
If MPEG preserves video fields correctly there WILL be MPEG 3D movies if I have
to do them myself. Actually I'm hoping it works, but have to see CD32 next
week for myself and ask the right questions of CBM.
additional reply to jeff – Amazing how many people are flocking to get AmiVR
and StereoPro systems given what you seem to believe is a 'lack of support'.
I'm much too busy shipping AmiVR's to worry about Domark and other companies.
IF they don't see the value of 3D I'm probably not going to convince them.
I'll just keep working on SPX. If you see the SPX demo alone, you'll want a
AmiVR or SP/Amiga.
Daniel:
Is there anyway to use the 3D glasses with 31.5khz or higher displays, or
is it still limited to 15.75khz?
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
there may be some other types which work that way, the ones I am using in AmiVR
and StereoPro/Amiga are for video. We do have a device which will strip sync
out of VGA and drive glasses, too, but you won't be able to hook that into
video. It'll be tied to a computer. The 15.7/31.5 khz frequency applies to
scan rates, NOT glasses sync (which is typically 60 Hertz). Email me your
address and I'll send you info on AmiVR and StereoPro/Amiga. Basically, the
answer is that we CAN provide a VGA glases driver. We haven't put it out for
Amiga yet as it is probably irrelevant on Amiga.
Daniel,
I'm still confused about one aspect of your products. Do you offer one model
of 3-D glasses which will work with both (a) an Amiga display, and (b) a VCR?
So far, it seems to me like there's one set of glasses which plug into your
Amiga, and another set (or the saem with a control box) to plug into your VCR.
Blaq!
Charles, the AmiVR interface works with the video output of an Amiga AND it
will work with a VCR to view our 3D video titles (80 tapes available). All you
need is ONE product to do either job – the AmiVR! You can view 3D stills on the
Amiga (and it looks like also 3D animations on the PAR which DOES preserve the
3D properly) while hooked to the Amiga. Later you can move the interface over
to your VCR and view 3D videotapes. It sure looks like we'll be able to make
3D animations with VistaPro and get 'em onto tape for viewing with AmiVR on
either the Amiga or VCR with one product. That's what makes AmiVR better and
different than StereoPro and the old XSPecs3D system. AmiVR is VIDEO-based
interface to sync the glasses. Interest is very high from hobbyists,
professionals, and universities. I'm delighted with the response. The blurb in
AmigaWorld (July 93) really got the word out. I can't keep 'em in stock. The
glasses are just the same as any other LCD glasses. It is the AmiVR interface
and software which make this such an exciting product. Thanks!
Danial,
I'm glad to see your 3D stuff is selling well. And thanks for the kind remarks
about Vistapro's 3D generation a while back in this thread.
I read somewhere that Sega's head mounted VR system is not stereo. It's a
single lo-res LCD with lenses and mirrors that make it look like the screen is
floating in the air about 6 feet in front of you. It's no different than
mounting a TV onto your head — except of course it's a lot lighter! I hope
the artical was wrong and the HMD does have real 3D capability.
John.
Hey, john! Long time no hear from! I didn't make my remark about VistaPro 3D
handling just to be nice. It is truly the best implementation ever. It does
the interleaving for video-compatible field-sequential 3D in a completely
transparent manner. It just works and is easy to do. I made a LEFT and RIGHT
view with VPro3.0 and each was overscan- interlace. The MERGE feature knew to
create a single correctly interleaved image the correct height with no special
interventions. I got a perfect Firecracker24 3D image FIRST TIME. And AdPro
converted it to HAM6 for distribution to any Amiga owner without messing
anything up. It is viewable on any Amiga with any IFF viewer. A Mandelbrot
Set FractalPro DEM, of course, with trees, etc. MandelForest is what I called
it. It is on the AmiVR disk.
Coming to WOCA? Stop by and grab a look (and a disk if you like). The 3D isn't
selling by the thousands, but then MegageM doesn't necessarily go after the
'million-seller' market. I like the small niche market just fine. They are
selling steady and customers like 'em. Thanks again for the kind words and
look forward to seeing you at WOCA.
Daniel,
DW> Vistapro 3D … the best implementation ever.
Only because there's not much else out there! The implementation works but
it's not especially easy to use. I plan to make it friendlier in the next
release — probably as simple as a single command. It will also have the
ability to make 3D animations automatically.
If you want to make really high quality images with Vistapro (stereo or
otherwise) I recommend rendering at twice the desired image size and then using
ADPro to shrink the IFF24 image down. ADPro will average together 2×2 groups
of pixels and produce a nicely anti-aliased result. The images look much more
"photographic". This helps 3D pairs a lot since it removes a lot of the
distracting high frequency aliasing noise. On the PC I have a stand alone
program called HALFTGA.EXE that performs just this shrinking/antialiasing
function. This will be an automatic feature in Vistapro 4.0 (don't hold your
breath, it won't ship for quite a while).
I won't be going to WOCA — I don't have the time and I hardly touch the Amiga
anymore anyway… I have a few pairs of glasses (So you won't hear me begging
for a handout! <g>), but since you offered a disk, could you give it to Clint
(at WOCA) to forward to me?
Thanks, John.
PS I've heard the same thing about Sega's head mounted display – that it is
monocular, not binocular. BUMMER! Hope it isn't true. There is a competing
'floating image' TV head-mounted system already out there, but it is about
$900. RE the 'single' screen Sega set – SAY IT ISN'T SO, JOE!
Daniel,
You mentioned in your first message in this thread, that "PAL" was
supported, Does this mean the specs and the video palyback will both work
on PAL Amiga's and TV??
Hopeing
Laurie Carroll AKL NZ
Longdistance Autopilot
Daniel,
just so I understand completely and totally, your one-pair and two-pair
packages have a video-based interface, which means they can be hooked up to a
VCR playing a stereo tape. And I can create stereo animations of my own, by
dumping Amiga 3-D animations to tape. And, I can view 3-D animations and stills
directly from my Amiga, by hooking up the glasses to the computer. Right?
By the way, when hooking up the glasses to the Amiga, do you use the RGB
23-pin port or do you need a composite video out?
Blaq!