#3DS R4 SIGGRAPH
29 messages in this thread
Anyone
Got back from SIGGRAPH '94…say 3DSR4 I was impressed of the many new features
Yost Group has incorporated into this new release…However, I was disapointed
at the fact that R4 is still a xtended DOS version…it still has static
windows and the same hierarchical menu system.
I was really hoping that it would be a *NIX app or argh running NT 3.5…no
such luck…during the whole SIGGRAPH adventure my associate kept telling me
lets see if 3DS can do this or that…he was refering to the features of
Wavefront and Softimage…3DS is pretty close to both, however, if you want
that much power a *NIX box is the way to go…unless Yost group ports their
code to SGI or SUN or PC *NIX of some sort…why is R4 still on DOS?
Why can't R4 be ported to *NIX? NT interface is to cheesy for 3DS 3DS deserves
*NIX and Motif and run on PowerPC or MIPS or Alpha…I was blown away by what I
saw…I wish it only was running under a workstation…and not NT on a
workstation.
Jeff
Jeff:
I share your interest in getting 3DS to another platform but I can understand
why it couldn't be accomplished quick enough for R4. You do know that the
renderer is being ported to SGI, right? To take advantage of the Alpha
platform I've been hoping for an NT version. There are several people with the
same interest here and lotsa fingers crossed for R5. Autodesk products in
general are showing a trend towards an NT port so don't give up hope for 3DS.
You actually like the Motif interface? I'm not a fan. How's NT's interface?
Bob
Bob,
I do not buy the argument that Yost/Autodesk could not have ported 3DS to NT or
*NIX…Assume they started in 1992 in would be 2+ years now…since *NIX has
been around and NT was known they could have gotten a early release of NT
further SDK are always available…In they do port to *NIX or NT it won't see
the light of day till sometime '96…by that time our shop will be using SGI
boxes and Wavefront or Alias and will no longer have a need for 3DS. I work on
workstations now and am familiar with Motif and find it much more visual than
NT…NT's GUI in the same as Windows which IMHO is quite passe. As in my last
post, as CPU performance increases so should the GUI and since the SGI and SUNS
etc. use Motif in one incarnation or another why not just adopt. Ultimately, I
would like to see X-Windows offered as an replacement for NT. And yes I have
read about the SGI port of the renderer, this way we can connect and have more
rendering power…nonetheless Wavefront etal still have it despite the cost. I
guess I am really disapointed at the mind set at SIGGRAPH namely it is a
SGI/SUN show and unless you use either no one wants to talk to you as in their
mind you have not gone pro until you use SGI/SUN and Wavefront etal code…this
really irks me ya know?
I wish 3DS would be legitimized by running on *NIX and really compete with the
likes of Wave* etal?
Jeff
Jeff,
3DSr4 on Unix – sure! But why not support the other 99% of the current user
base with a port to NT3.5 (or better) with OpenGL too. That way 3DS will still
be usable to all of us that can't affort an SGI (yet). Where would 3DS be if it
had a limited ($++) user base and a price to match? Could it really compete
with Alais & Wavefront on their own turf and at a similar price?
-Andy
Andy,
I agree a port to NT3.5 would be great…assuming $soft changed the cheesy GUI
to make it more of an workstation look. As to the other 99%…well as I said if
3DS gets more powerful it will start to require a workstation class OS with a
workstation class GUI.
NT in its current incarnation just does not cut it…as to the user base for a
*NIX version well it it were to keep it current price point and purhaps raise
the cost about 2K then it would still fall way low of wavefront/alias/softimage
etc. It would compete with the likes of the former but at a better price! From
what I saw at SIG R4 is still a DOS 32-bit program ya know they could even port
to Deskview/X [D
that was Desqview/X a X port to DOS that gives users a true multitasking…well
in the sense it can run multiple apps.
Jeff
Jeff,
<<I agree a port to NT3.5 would be great…assuming $soft changed the cheesy
GUI to make it more of an workstation look. As to the other 99%…well as I
said if 3DS gets more powerful it will start to require a workstation class OS
with a workstation class GUI.>>
Let's hope that the new look for Chicago is incorporated in NT too! From what
I've seen in the magazines, Chicago does look a lot like X Windows! Just think
how jealous that will make a those Mac users!
-Andy
Andy,
I have seen Chicago…personally it looks like M$ added a whole lot…a
mish-mash if you will. NeXTSTEP, OS2, MAC I really wish they would just settle
on one common GUI, like Motif (-:
jeff
Jeff:
In general I tend to agree with you but the immediate importance of an NT
version of 3DS to you and I is not held by Autodesk. Jonas was able to give me
the most information and he emphasized that the market will determine just how
important the port to other platforms will become. There's no question that if
started a few years ago it could have been included in R4 but I can see that if
3DS's customer base is not interested in running NT why put in the effort? To
get it to happen you, I and others interested have to remain vocal. So far I
believe that Autodesk has been quite accomodating and has incorporated the
features which everyone screams for. Now all we gotta do is scream real loud.
As far as SIGGRAPH being a SGI/SUN show, you're partially right. Honestly, I
only saw SUN workstations at the SUN booth and nowhere else. There was a
decent showing of MAC's and a depressing lack of ALPHA workstations. With
Ray-tracing as the only major exclusion, I think 3DS R4 has all of the tools
any of the workstation packages offer so I think speed of platform has got to
be close to, if not the most important next issue.
Bob
PMJI, but as regards SUN and SGI being the show at SIGGRAPH.
After going to a number of these, it is very interesting to me that the cutting
edge work seems to be moving toward domination by SGI at SUN's expense. I
think Las Vegas was a SUN/SGI show: Orlando was definitely an SGI show, IMHO.
–Noah
SUN is trying hard to get rid of its user base! <g> It's getting worse and
worse to live with Solaris. New systems are being shipped with no development
tools of any kind. Tech support won't answer questions if you have "any"
non-Sun part inside the box (for instance, they won't answer question about
your serial port if your hard disk ain't Sun). They spent far too much time
with that Wabi stupidity and meanwhile, SGI kept its graphics steam roller
running 24 hours around. This will, with no doubt, turn into a very hot market.
Watch Intel sliding down a little and all this RISC guys will jump like a bunch
of maniacs trying to get the market share. PPC? Who is kidding who?!
Bob,
Yes…I guess I was still annoyed at the response I got from some of the
vendors…I feel as long as I use 3DS I will be on the outside looking in…It
is like 3DS and then everyone else. 3DS is getting pretty close in feature and
functionality but the main issue I raise was the fact that 3DS is really to
much for DOS to handle…it needs to move to the next plain which IMHO is a
workstation running NT3.5 or OS2 or *NIX the way I see it is thus…If I buy a
multiple Pentium box running NT or OS2 SMP 3DS will not take advantage of the
OS…I just feel that 3DS *needs* to move on and get out of DOS. Not to sound
to elitist but whomever is using 3DS to do production animations, images etc.
would move to a workstation…BTW the only reason I am not using a SGI is do to
the fact that the apps are 3-4 times the cost of the box…given an SGI Indy XZ
15K, memory 2K and then the fun the apps are 8-15K ala carte? A indigo2 with
extreme is 35K and then apps well you get the point. Whereas 3DS is moderately
priced…DOS boxes are (pentium) 3-4K, geez for now the only box to run 3DS is
Intel…so much for buyinh a PowerPC (-:
jeff
According to a guy at the SGI booth the Indy XZ was going to be @ $27k for
anything useable (memory, HD, etc…)
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
John,
Yea I don't doubt it…then again the indy offers 400MB/sec memory bus
sustained, 256+MB/sec system bus sustained…PCI rev1 -> 132MB/sec (32-bit) PCI
rev2 ->~260MB/sec (64-bit)…either way for shear speed SGI wins…at a cost.
(-:
jef
John,
The Indy XZ, based on a 100MHz R4600PC, w/32 RAM, 1 Gig H.D., 17"
monitor & IndyCam lists for $18495. Push that to a 150MHz R4400SC w/ a 20"
monitor, and you're then at $28,500.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
The R4400 config was what I had asked about, and your figure is spot on with my
memory for a change <g>. I think the Indigo2 is a much better deal,
considering its more upwardly mobile and almost the same price.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
>>With Ray-tracing as the only major exclusion, I think 3DS R4 has all of the
tools any of the workstation packages offer<<
I don't in any way want to take away from 3DS, but you must have been looking
at some other workstation software than me. Alias, Wavefront, and SoftImage
have a lot of features 3DS doesn't. Stuff like sophisticated compositing and
optical fx suites, audio support, NURBS, built in motion capture interfaces,
phoeneme interpreters that can link meshes with audio tracks to do automatic
lip-synching, and tons of other stuff. Obviously these packages are in a
completely different price and market from 3DS, but they don't JUST cost more.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
John:
When I saw the demos from a few of the major other workstation based packages I
often heard that the effect was available as an additional module at an
additional cost. I didn't pay close enough attention to find out exactly what
was in the base package as I was scared away by the cost of the hardware alone
to run the stuff!
Bob
In the SGI software world, base packages are about as useful as a wordprocessor
for animation. You really have to go all out, and the cost is significantly
(understatement) higher than 3DS. But there IS a difference.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
I second the *nix port. It would be a dream having 3DS under X11R6. Just to
think that anything from a Linux box to a biffed up Cray could be used…
On a second note, X11R6 can be compiled for NT straight out of the box. You can
get the Motif extensions from a company down in Florida (I forgot the name). It
ain't great but it works (I personally prefer Linux 10 to 1). Best of all
worlds is running an X server in Windowze. I have a package from a company
called "XVision". My Windows is actually Motif running mwm (as opposed to
Windows win manager). I have xterm windows and other X apps of my *nix boxes
(Sun and Linux), Windows, and dos applications all in front of me.
My theory is that porting to Unix basically goes against the philosophy of the
Yost Group/Adesk re 3DS: bring a powerful 3D animation/rendering tool to the
most prevalent and accessible OS out there. Remember, this is not an SGI app,
it's for a wider audience – and I'm always amazed that in spite of this it's a
super program. I just wish OS was plural <g>. Unix on a PC is kind of a
waste, although I've only seen it a few times, but I'd like to see NT (Alpha,
PPC, MIPS, etc…).
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
John,
Yes I was really looking forward to NT port of 3DS…no such luck…I just hate
the thought of being stuck with pentium…I would like a PPC…they should give
the customers a choice as to what OS they buy. It is funny on the 3DS box
front…it says "for MS-DOS" this to me implies that there is a version for
other OS's.
jeff
Although R4 won't be ported, I am quite hopefull and certain that Adesk will do
an NT port. Look at their flagship product, AutoCad – hint hint, and keep
after Adesk with your OS wishes.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
I hope someone from Yost/Autodesk has been reading these threads.
Jeff
>> why is R4 still on DOS? <<
You have a good point, Jeff. It seems that everybody wants 3DS to evolve to a
more apropriate OS. I feel the same way. I hope I am not alone in not wanting
NT to be the choice — but it probably will be. It would be nice to break the
bonds with Microsoft while we still can.
One note, though. I remember talking with someone who made the point that 3DS
is argueably the most _manageable_ 3D app around. One can manage the files,
OS, hardware, etc. without having to hire a full-time tech-support team or
having to buy into a one-sided service contract. Whichever way the tide turns,
I hope the manageability remains reasonably constant.
— James — MAP —
James,
I agree…break the hold $soft has.
Jeff
>> break the hold $soft has <<
Right now, the only real ties 3DS has to MS is that many people run MS
DOS. Even these ties are weak given that people can choose other
DOSes such as DR DOS, and, in my case, OS/2. This puts Autodesk in a
position of independance and flexibility — conditions vital for
continued success in todays software markets.
I would be curious to know if the powers at Autodesk are aware of what
they are getting into by developing for a MS operating system like
NT. I am suprised that Autodesk would allow ACAD and 3DS to be at
the whim of Microsoft. Microsoft has been repeatedly deviant
regarding product announcements and APIs. Can you imagine your
bread-winning products being so dependent on such a company?
Of course, nobody outside Autodesk knows for sure what the choice for
3DS will be. Lets hope that the choice of NT has not been set in
stone!
Yes…I would still like to see a *nix version…using Desqview/X all
DOS users can still use DOS and run 3DS under a mutlitasking OS using
Motif…the downside is that…well actually having a unix version
for work stations is better…run the core code on a fast multi
processor system and us DV/X as the server…I kinda like that
idea…I still would like to get 3DS to PPC…and not using NT.
I second you opinion about not wanting to be stuck with NT from Microsloth. I
would hope that they ADESK would make an OS/2 port or the PPC.
Judy
>> an OS/2 port or the PPC <<
As others have stated, it is likely that Autodesk will go with a
platform/os that is accessable to the masses. I fully support this
premise. Unfortunately, I suspect that NT will be the choice simply
because MS has the power to draw developers like flies.
I personally agree with you: The choice of OS/2 and PPC would be
ideal. OS/2 costs less than NT both in terms of price and system
requirements. These factors alone make OS/2 more accessable to the
masses. Furthermore, OS/2 has full DOS and Windows support which we
will sacrafice with NT. And the upcoming Symetric Multi Processing
(SMP) support of OS/2 will provide the power of multiple processors.
Put that together with PPC technology and you have a real winner.
OS/2 does lack some of the features of NT such as platform
independance. NTs portability makes it very attractive to
developers. Also, the fact that IBM is the maker of OS/2 causes
people to flinch — with good reason in some cases.
If Autodesk is not going to go with OS/2, I would personally prefer
they just go ahead and go to SGI or Sun. Why bother with the middle
of the road?