Add depth …
49 messages in this thread
Although the user can tweak the ambient light ect. 3DS3 does have a dull
Rendering engine. I spend hours trying to get that metal look that the
producers ask for. Some times I can some time I don't. I am haveing a hard time
keeping 3DS3 as a competing devloment tool for my work. More and more the
producers ask for that "ray traced" look. and say "we will let the Alias guys
render it" I was disappointed that this is not going to be addressed in the
near future. You are loseing support becouse of this and artist. Brandon
I heartily disagree with you, Brandon. Have you seen our latest demo reel?
– G
Gary,
As everyone seems to be adding their two cents worth to this discussion, I'd
like to say that I was very amused reading your original message on the
subject. I remember before 3DS was originally released, Wavefront had a
reputation for a "plasticy" look. Their demo reels were full of "plastic"
looking animation. I compare that with what I've been able to create with 3DS
and there's no comparison. I would say that Lightwave by far looks more
"plasticy" but much less than Wavefront did only five years ago.
To get to the point. <g> The beauty of 3DS is that you have an incredible
range, from animation that looks almost airbrushed to "plasticy" to very
reflective "metal". Some of my current work looks illustrative (like the Death
Gate ) and I would speculate that anyone who wasn't totally familiar with 3DS
having difficulty determining what package was used to create it.
The "metal" in the Porsche Logo didn't even utilize the "metal shader" and is
certainly "flashy and metalic" looking. I don't know how it compares with other
metals on the demo reel (as I haven't seen it yet) but its prompted several
people to ask whether it was ray-traced. (Which seems to be all the vogue. <g>)
Personally I hope 3DS never loses the ability to create the softer look like in
the Death Gate scenes. There appears to be a renewed interest in CG animation
not looking CG and in that regard 3DS certainly has _all_ the bases covered.
After the luster of ray-tracing wears off, which I think it always does, one
really truly begins to appreciate the beauty and art which can be created with
3DS. Yes you can create the "hard cold flash and trash" look but its nice that
you have a whole range of "looks" with which to create. I don't know of any
other package that has such a broad range with a simple but powerful materials
editor. (I say simple as compared to the RIB format or even Lightwave for that
matter. <g>) With all the clamour about Alias, its the "looks" that I can
create with 3DS that keeps me content. FWIW.
-JE
P.S. I plan to upload 3 or 4 images to illustrate just some of the
possibilities I've been able to create.
Thanks for the perspective, John. Coming from you, a former Digital Arts user,
that means a lot (they had a great renderer that we tried very hard to beat).
You (and all the other contributors to this year's reel) will be sent tapes and
a thank you letter by the end of this week. You'll be able to see for
yourself!
– G
Gary,
>> DGS… they had a great renderer … <<
I agree but as I'm sure Sherwood would also agree, 3DS has it beat in many
ways, not the least of which is its versatility and ease of use.
I look forward to recieving this year demo reel, I'm sure its terrific!
Thanks,
-JE
P.S. I uploaded six images and barely scratched the surface of possibilities.
Nothing fancy, but I hope they will inspire further experimentation.
John, I would love to see those images I am constantly impressed by the works
of others, I did see the SSIGRAPH demo at school (a certified ACAD Training
site). I was blown away and have to push myself much harder now. I like the
look of 3ds and I use to use the materials in the default lib to workup a
scene. I thought they were good examples. Last night I went through and "fixed
or adjusted" all of them. I don't know if it will help give my stuff more depth
or not but I'm willing to try. I believe good depth of field and perspective
help get that deep look as well, and. I think it's pretty weak of people to
blame a renderer for operator error. I see lots of stuff and I can't figure
out how it was done, but it was all done in the same 3ds I have and if I keep
trying I might just duplicate it. I have always leaned towards animations that
look natural and not glitzy but sometimes I get just as tacky as the next guy
and want that total CG look, it's nice to have the choice.
Richard,
The images are posted with the keyword "Anigrafix". They do a fair but limited
job of showing the amazing diversity which can be created with 3DS, and aren't
very complicated. And what I find even more amazing is that the interface for
materials creation is as uncomplicated as it is. If you see any type of "look"
you'd like to experiment with let me know and I'll pass along whatever tips you
might need to create the same effect. But the key is really as you realise…
Experiment. The materials editor is deceptively simple in design but
extrordinarily flexibile. To use one of my crude analogies, its like a
Volkswagen Beetle with a Porsche Turbo Carrera under the hood. <g>
-JE
Thanks for the offer I will check them out. I really have more involvement in
modeling/keyframing right now and after I get a "grip" on that I plan to get
more involved with materials and lights. I have limited knowledge of the use of
colors and things of an artistic nature but I do have experience in lighting.
I have come along way since the first day a loaded 3ds and I have been having a
great time learning more.
Richard,
>> I have come along way since the first day I loaded 3ds and I have been
haveing a great time learning more. <<
Glad to hear it, let me know if I can help.
-JE
>>Thanks for the perspective, John.
>> Coming from you, a former Digital Arts user
Hello, John:
Could you tell me a little bit about Digital Arts? I heard that they are now
defunct. I've heard other comments about the software, and I guess it's a
little before my time, because I've never seen anything on it. Was it for PC?
Was it expensive?
Thanks –
Jim
Hi Jim,
>> Could you tell me a little bit about Digital Arts. <<
In many ways it was ahead of its time, the renderer was superb as was the
modeler and had very sophisticated compositing tools but… it had a lot of
quirks. Things that we take for granted like the placement of spotlights and
and the creation of shadows required a good deal of effort and trial and error
to position correctly. Shadow maps and texture maps had to be specially created
and converted into a format DGS could use. It was buggy and the code was
constantly changing, not to mention that there was no documentation in the way
of technique until much later. You'd get used to one look and style only to
have to change or modify your style six months later. I could go on and on. It
had many great features but equally many great flaws. All I can say in the end
is… I'm really grateful for 3DS. 🙂
-JE
-JE
RE Digital Arts –
Thanks for the details, John. Just a couple of other questions I have – what
platform did it run on? Is it now a dead product? If so, how long ago did it
die? Did it compete with Topas in the late 80s, or was it more up against SGI
stuff? Are there still a bunch of loyal users out there?
Thanks –
Jim
Jim,
>> What platform did it run on? <<
Originally it ran on a 286 as that was what was available. It had a special
card for floating point calculations, called a Definicon which had a high speed
Motorola chip. Later with the advent of the 386 they added "transputers" which
are parrallel processors. The last time I was heavily associated with DGS
directly they were working on a deal with Rank Cintel to provide even more
advanced parrallel processing.
At one point they tried porting the code over to the Mac. Big mistake. Then
they started porting the code over to the SGI and they had a working "renderer"
at last years Siggraph but R2 devastated the market in terms of ease of use and
price/performance. As a result of the porting, the PC platform was neglected.
All those factors conspired to cause its ultimate demise. With R2 the writing
was on the wall and that was when I switched over professionally even though I
had "played" with R1.
Lyon-Lamb the parent company is now defunct although another company has taken
over its product line.
>> Is it now a dead product? <<
That's a tough question to answer. <g>
They have a number you can call where you get a recorded message. However the
lead software developer has caught the "Hollywood" bug and is doing work in
L.A. Another one of the developers works for HSC.
>> Did it compete with Topas? <<
In a manner of speaking but it was the premiere animation package for the PC.
Topas was priced at $7500 and DGS $10000. Before the 3DS revolution. <g>
>> Are there still a bunch of loyal users out there? <<
In the European market its still used quite a bit, not so much in the US. Its
too labor intensive for American tastes. There is one guy in SD who still uses
it and has had a programmer write his own compositing modules.
I still have it loaded on one of my systems but not for rendering as I've been
totally spoiled by 3DS especially with R3.
FWIW I loved the look but it basically had one look, not like 3DS and I have
found ways to create a similar look in 3DS. Add to that the sheer power and
ease of use of 3DS and its no contest.
We are so fortuneate to have 3DS in so many ways. I think everyone should learn
DGS or POV and _graduate_ to 3DS. You'd never _ever_ hear a complaint. <G>
-JE
P.S. Speaking of "plastic looking" have you seen any renderings on Topas? <BG>
Funny thing though, alot of Americans like that high gloss look. No problem as
its obviously easy to create in 3DS as well. 🙂
John, the list price of Topas when 3DSr1 was released was about $13,000, fyi.
– G
>> the list price of Topas when 3DSr1 was released was about $13,000… <<
Could be. I know is that it retailed here in So. Cal for $7500 and was cheaper
than DGS. I was teaching animation at Decision Vision at the time, which was
right next door to DGS sales. So you'd think they would have kept the price
high to make DGS more attractive. In fact everyone bought DGS anyway, even
though there was a $2500 difference.
-JE
John:
Thanks again for all the good details about Digital Arts. I'm interested in
what happened in the 'olden days' (defined as any time previous to when I
started getting involoved – 1992).
>>We are so fortuneate to have 3DS in so
>>many ways. I think everyone should learn
>>DGS or POV and _graduate_ to 3DS.
>>You'd never _ever_ hear a complaint. <G>
I did start with PoV and Vivid. And you don't hear too many complaints out of
me!
Jim
Jim,
>> I did start with PoV and Vivid. <<
Aha! That explains why you're a 3DS User group rep! <g>
-JE
>>prompted several people to ask whether it
>>was ray-traced. (Which seems to be all the vogue. <g>)
I hear this too, sometimes, and I sometimes think the people who ask just like
the sound of the word 'ray-traced'… it's like a favorite buzzword. I
constantly hear it misapplied to almost any CG thing (sprite-based "Asteroids"
type computer games claiming "raytraced graphics"). I really like the way the
scanline renderer of 3DS works. In a production situation, I love it's speed.
It's amazing.
If raytracing were available with 3DS, I think we'd use a raytrace option about
as much as we currently use the 'scene motion blur' option… only when we had
lots of time and renderpower.
I'm currently working on an article on raytracing scenes created in 3D Studio.
I think one of the things people overlook about ray-traced chrome is that it
reflects only what's around it. You have to build stuff around the chrome for
it to reflect. Reflection mapping is much faster and often more effective for
the flying logo stuff. With the metallic shader in R3, I've seen no reason for
any 3DS user to feel metallicly deprived. <G>
There are only a few cases where raytracing is called for: Prominent glass
refraction, perfect metallic reflection, and colored translucent objects that
have prominent colored shadows. Anyway, that's my opinion…
>>Personally I hope 3DS never loses the ability to
>>create the softer look like in the Death Gate scenes.
>>There appears to be a renewed interest in CG
>>animation not looking CG and in that regard
>>3DS certainly has _all_ the bases covered.
I agree with you heartily. I thought we'd all seen enough "pinballs on chess
boards".
Jim
Jim,
I think we're totally in sync on the ray-tracing issue. Not that I want to
discourage anyone from adding that capability to their tool kit but as you
point out its got its place, to me much like any other special effect.
I applaud the efforts of those bringing that capability to 3DS and with the
ability to composite Targa images in VP for those objects that need that
specific look its going to be a nice addition, but if nothing else, it will
make 3DS'ers who haven't worked with RT, really appreciate the terrific
efficiency and broadness of style which they already have at their disposal.
-JE
Jim, the new "Special Effects with 3DS" book coming from New Riders next month
has articles about how to simulate refraction and color shadows in 3DSr3. I
think you'll find it very interesting. <g>
– G
>>"Special Effects with 3DS" book
I've been hoping to get my hands on that one for some time. Bet it's great! Did
you contribute anything to the book?
>>coming from New Riders next month
Hey everyone, Gary said it's coming out in September! <G> Seriously, I hope so,
but Inside 3DS took _so_ much longer than I thought, I'm not holding my
breath…
Jim
The only thing I contributed to the book was 3DS.
Re the September ship-date… they're trying very hard for September, but you'd
have to ask Kevin Coleman if you want the word from the horses mouth.
From everything I've heard about the book, it sounds like it's in the same
league as Inside 3DS.
– G
>>"pinballs on chess boards".
Just out of curiousity, are you aware of the chrome sphere and checkerboard
'non-test' going on in GraphDev?
John Stetzer
JWS
>>Just out of curiousity, are you aware
>>of the chrome sphere and checkerboard
>>'non-test' going on in GraphDev?
I had heard of it! I go there occasionally. I'd like to see what sort of images
are being created in that style. It's kind of like a 1-4-5 blues write your own
song contest. Sounds interesting. I don't do a lot of 300K gif downloads from
CIS, though, it's too expensive!
Are you going to send in anything for the sphere/checkerboard contest?
Jim
>>Are you going to send in anything for the sphere/checkerboard contest?
Already did (for sort of the reason you listed; did feel sort of like visiting
an old friend). It's 'Pot o' Cliche (tpclch.jpg, 107k); thought I'd kill two
cliches w/one stone! My personal fav. is Bill Irvine's(I think) convrg.gif
(188k).
John Stetzer
JWS
As far as the ray-trace thing goes, my favorite renderer in the whole, wide
world (no offense, Gary) is Renderman, which is also a scan-line renderer.
Although raytracing is really nice in certain situations, I prefer scan-line
rendering. I really do like the R3 renderer a LOTTTTTTTT!!!! I've got another
package with a nice raytracer, but I still prefer the scan-line images.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie, inc)
I agree with you about Renderman. It's the best, bar NONE.
– G
Yeah, there's nothing like seeing the richness and depth of a renderman
animation recorded at 2k on film.
Actually, I'm going to be working on a 10 second peice that will be rendered to
35mm film (partly for a client, partly as an experiment in feasability with my
hardware setup). I'm really looking forward to seeing 3DS's renderer at that
rez, and I have a feeling that it will be super competetive with "out of the
box" renderman (i.e. no custom shaders).
John Tissavary (LUNA cie, inc)
The quality on film is good enough for Sony Pictures to be using 3DS for over 4
MINUTES of on-screen animation in William Gibson's first film… "Johnny
Mnemonic" starring Keonu Reeves. They're rendering to 1600 horizontal lines of
resolution and using a gausian interpolation technique (the same one used in
Jurrasic Park) to blow it up before printing to 35mm film.
BTW, they chose 3DS to do this over Alias w/Renderman because they felt the 3DS
output was comparable to Rman but with MUCH faster rendering time.
The film will be released for Thanksgiving.
– G
Gary,
I'll be very interested to see what SPW has done with 3DS. Is this work
photorealistic or more like Disney renderings?
-JE
It's the first film visualization of Gibsonian Cyberspace.
If you asked Gibson, he might say it was photorealistic, but I don't think
anyone else has much of a frame of reference!
– G
>> If you asked Gibson, he might say it was photorealistic… <<
I'm definitely intrigued! Thanksgiving now appears to far away. <g>
-JE
That's right. I spoke with Frank Foster about that at Siggraph. Sounds like
an exciting piece. That's the one Steve Scheerer and Tim Miller are working
on, right?
John Tissavary (LUNA cie, inc)
Frank has a bunch of folks working on it, but I'm not exactly sure who.
– G
I heard that other 3D programs were used for most of the film, while Sony is
using 3DS for "their" segment. So whose PR departments should we believe
regarding this film?
I'm still waiting to hear Gibson's explanation of how to squeeze a digitalized
human artificial intelligence into only 2 meg of ROM. (My favorite mistake in
one of his books. 🙂
Here's the deal. There are about 6.5 minutes of total 3D animation in the
film.
2.2 minutes is being done exclusively in 3DS by Sony Pictures.
2.5 minutes is being done 80% in 3DS and 20% in Alias (the motion-captured
stuff… pre-Puppeteer) by Darrel Anderson and Richard Berry.
The remainder is being done by a company called Core (I think, up in Canada).
There ya go,
– G
i saw some of the work they are doing for "johnny". it looked darn good to me!
This is great! I bet this will have a ripple effect in the biz.
Hi Gary,
I hope all is well. I caught the thread about Sony Pictures' involvement in
the movies with 3DS. You mentioned that they render at 1600 horizontal lines
of resolution using a gaussian interpolation technique that was used in
Jurassic Park.
Do you mind expanding a bit on the Gaussian Interpolation? What is it? Can I
do it? What kind of equipment is needed for such an effect?
Thanks!
Alex K.
I'm not an expert on digital media-to-film, Alex. But a gaussian interp
function is like any other interp function, except that it uses a gaussian
distribution. That provides a much smoother, pixel-less output image. Any
computer can do that part… it's the scanning of the 35mm film (usually with a
laser scanner) that's the REALLY tricky part.
– G
Hmmm, I'll have to look into that a little bit more. I'm intrigued. Thanks for
your reply. Take care Gary.
Alex K.
I'm doing a 10 second animation that will be rendered to film (someday when I
get time <G>), and I'm also looking into the gaussian interpolation scheme.
I'll let you know what I find out…
John Tissavary (LUNA cie, inc)
Has there been any consideration of integrating Renderman with 3DS, not as a
replacement, but an option? I'd love to see the two together. I bet it'd
really sizzle.
JNJ
We tried to at one point, but our data structures were so different than what
Rman wanted that it was like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
– G
>3DS using Renderman like a square peg in a round hole.
Yeah, I figured it'd be something like that. It'd be nice though.. You just
need a really big hammer. <g> I really like their shaders/looks. Some look
incredible. Mabe 3DS will have more .sxp IPAS's that will do things like them
without needing to make complicated/tesselated meshes. 3DS's render is
certainly acceptable without Renderman. <g> I'd love to see selectable objects
(like glass) to have raytraced though, if it's possible. I'll keep an eye out
for that book you mentioned. I've been pleased with Inside 3DS.
JNJ
As far as the ray-trace thing goes, my favorite renderer in the whole, wide
world (no offense, Gary) is Renderman, which is also a scan-line renderer.
Although raytracing is really nice in certain situations, I prefer scan-line
rendering. I really do like the R3 renderer a LOTTTTTTTT!!!! I've got another
package with a nice raytracer, but I still prefer the scan-line images.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie, inc)
John,
Just to let you know, your comm software is posting multiple replys. I
think your note on Renderman has been posted about four times so far.
David
I think John was just trying to drive his point home. 🙂
Paul
Thanks, I noticed it, too. This message just doesn't want to die in my
software.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie, inc)