#Anyone else fed up?
36 messages in this thread
I'm tired of waiting.
Are you?
I was promised by a very high level NewTekian that I'd be able to cut
frame-accurate action on the Flyer.
I can't.
In fact, I can't do much of anything *dependably* with the Flyer.
Yes, match frame editing has been promised for 4.1 – but the truth of the
matter is that 4.0.5. has been hanging for many weeks now, obviously indicating
some very serious problems.
There are limits to everyone's patience and I think NewTek has stretched them
to the breaking point.
Do you?
Jerry
Jerry,
I'm close but not there yet. After having been through the MII fiasco with JVC
(I still have 2 $10,000. machines that don't work reliably, they would never
admit to a problem, and then quietly pulled the rug out from the mii LINE) I
guess I've developed patience (numbness?) for these situations.
Fortunately, I've been able to get the jobs out with a few workarounds. (Mainly
going to a friends studio and editing all the non-stuttering pieces together on
BetaSP.) However, if I lost a client or a job because of the problems I'd
probably be ready to storm Topeka.
What I'm hoping and praying is that Newtek finally learned a lesson and "Will
release no software before its time . . ." I'm expecting a bugfree package in
4.05 that will solve all these problems that are driving us all crazy and
keeping us here 16 hours a day, seven days a week.
As I understand it, the software that resides on the Flyer board is being
rewritten from scratch, so I'm sure that it's a major effort. It also sounds
like they are being very picky in testing.
So I guess I'll give them one more chance, and if that doesn't work I'll save
my pennies for an IMMix Videocube.
Mark Karney
Norwest Communications Inc.
Barrington, IL
>>I'm expecting a bugfree package in 4.05<<
Remember Mark, 4.05 is NOT the "final release"…4.1 is.
Regards,
Gary
I know. I figured they'd fix the bugs in 4.05, and add all the new wonderful
features in 4.1. <G>
Mark Karney
(The Eternal Optimist)
Norwest Communications Inc.
Numbness? I love it. Good way to describe it. Kind of like what happens after
you hit the mule over the head with the 2 x 4. <G>
I don't have anyone to rely on with other equipment, but I don't make my
living from video either. But it's still irritating to have a significantly
unusable machine here and endure the endless parade of delays.
Jerry
I've been waiting a long time too, but as a software developer, I can
appreciate the amount of work that is probably going into the product. The
management has learned a good lesson by no longer stating a deadline (next week
/ two weeks). We'd all like to see 4.05 (and 4.1) tomorrow, but I'd rather see
it work and be thoroughly debugged. That's what I try to do with the projects
I do for clients – I insist on rigorous testing with a written test plan to
make sure that from release to release, adding new things didn't break old
ones. It sounds from the way Chuck is talking, this is now the approach their
development team is taking (hope, hope).
I do have a project that has been in the can for a year waiting for the
functional software, but it's my project and my dime so I'll be patient. The
Flyer does not (yet) impact my livelyhood, and I have successfully completed
two minor projects for clients using the Flyer.
"but as a software developer, I can appreciate the amount of work that is
probably going into the product"
And you probably also appreciate – as I do – the importance of never
releasing a product before it is ready – which is precisely what was done in
the case of the Flyer.
Yes, it's nice that they're witholding release of 4.0.5 until it's actually
ready. But that also means that 4.1 – the final release – is also pushed back.
Without some means of editing action, the Flyer is useless to me and I get no
satisfaction from it.
With Chuck around, we are getting the real news, which I appreciate. I just
don't like the content of that news.
Jerry
Jerry,
>>And you probably also appreciate – as I do – the importance of never
releasing a product before it is ready<<
Newtek painted themselves into a corner with the way they took deposits for the
preorders ( and we were nuts enough to go along with it!).
Imagine putting down that money 14 months ago, and STILL not having anything to
show for it .
Regards,
Gary
"Imagine putting down that money 14 months ago, and STILL not having anything
to show for it ."
Yep. Kind of makes you think of certain words that begin with "f", doesn't
it? <G>
Jerry
Let'see….
Fiduciary,
Folly,
Financial,
Fikle,
Fate,
unFortunate,
Fer cryin' out loud………………
Regards,
Gary
You missed one. Starts with an "f", ends with a "d". <G>
Jerry
Feathered (see Tar &…)
Regards,
Gary
I waited for the -official release version- and am in the same boat as the rest
of you guys (probably spent more money on the Flyer, as well!).
PMJI but I keep hearing about Newtek taking deposits on the (Flyer?) preorders.
As a dealer I took $100 deposits from everyone who took advantage of the Newtek
offer but that was for my own protection – it did not go to Newtek. Its only
purpose was to give me some assurance that the orders were for real. In the
few cases where people decided to cancel before the units were delivered we
refunded their deposits promptly.
I am sure that most dealers did the same thing. If they said that the Newtek
was taking the deposits they were either not telling the truth or dealing with
a different Newtek than the one I was working with.
Nick Rahal – Infotronics Inc
Amiga Video Since 1986
Nick,
It dosen't sound like you were in on the same program as other dealers. Most of
us pre-orderers put down $300 – $500 by June 30, 1994. Later, we got a $500
rebate from NewTek.
Regards,
Gary
Again — Newtek never took the deposits you posted as part of the flyer
preorder program. There are two different kinds of Newtek dealers: Partners
Plus Dealers (who buy directly from Newtek) and dealers who buy from
distributors.. In either case Newtek took no deposits on Flyer preorders.
However Partners Plus Dealers received the $500 rebate at the same time that
they were invoiced (when the units were shipped) so they simply charged their
customers $500 less. Dealers who bought from distributors paid full price for
their units (at the time of delivery) and the customers received their $500
rebate from Newtek. In either case the deposit paid at the time of order
(before June 30, 1994) was kept by your dealer and the timing and amount of the
deposit was completely at his (her?) discretion.
Nick Rahal – Infotronics Inc
Amiga Video Since 1986
>>In either case the deposit paid at the time of order (before June 30, 1994)
was kept by your dealer<<
That's interesting. I have mentioned this deposit, and how NewTek was getting
interest-free loans on quite a few occasions, and NewTek never said anything
about that not being the case.
Regards,
Gary
The situation regarding deposits is exactly as Nick has described it, and I
simply ignored gratuitous inaccuracies on the issue which I probably should
have addressed.
Far from having interest free loans to work with, we were chopping staff
through either attrition, or layoffs, as occurred last June, during the last
month of the pre-order offer, when we laid off 15 staff one day.
We're still working with a tight belt but we have been able to expand R & D,
and Tech Support, both in response to needs of the Flyer owners.
Chuck.
Hi Nick –
That was the same program we followed also. Each prebook had a $100 deposit to
be paid against the purchase and the purchase price was $3495. Since we
purchased directly from NewTek, the rebate was netted in the purchase price and
none of our customers had to wait for the $500 rebate from NewTek.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
Jerry,
I too have a, personal project (one of the main reasons I bought a Flyer) that
I'm anxious to start working on. The project includes -hundreds- of short (few
second) clips. I'd like to start digitizing them, but wonder if there is any
reason for waiting until 4.1 is released.
Can you see any disadvantage to -digitizing- clips with the current software?
Clips digitized with the current software will play in 4.05, and our tests have
also shown no difficulties in playing back projects created in earlier 4.0x
revs under 4.05.
4.05 and the new Seagate firmware does cure the difficulty of frames dropped
during digitizing, which the old firmware and current software suffers.
Chuck.
So, Chuck, What's the latest progress report.
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
4.05 is now undergoing test on Tech Support's machines as well as in Test, and
with a select group of outside beta testers. This means the primary target
bugs seem to have been squashed, and the code is being tested by a larger group
to confirm Test's results on that and look for new bad guys, etc. If this
phase goes well —– let me repeat that
IIIFFFF this phase goes well –
If THIS phase goes *****WELL*****
then we would have a post. If not, we don't. This is the first time the code
has gotten further than Test's initial test phase before reject, so we've made
some progress.
Chuck.
Chuck,
Good news on 4.05 (well…better news anyway). Keep us "posted".
Regards,
Gary
Chuck:
I would love to be selfish here and offer my services as a beta tester, but
honestly if you want to find problems with it send a copy to Wayne. 8) (No
offense Intended Wayne! but if you cant break it no one can.)
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
FlyerHeads-
You ask is anyone fed up? HELL YES!!!!!! I pulled my investments out of
Intel stock way back in fall on 1994 just to purchase my Flyer studio and look
whats happened, I'm stumbling around with half ass equipment while Intel more
than doubled. Let's see we have software that's prenatal, HD's that are now
becoming obsolete, CD's that are nonfunctional and various other equipment that
have long hence gone out of warrenty. We all are losing money daily as this
drags on and on and on. I may have to resort to taking drugs again just to ease
the frustration. We would't want that to happen cos i jus mite cruise on down
I-70 and meet the sun as it settled down over Topeka.
jack
Thanks for the comments, Jack.
For the third time, I'm starting to lose patience with NewTek.
Jerry
Jerry,
Yes, I too am fed up. I keep hearing about these bugs that are taken care
of in 4.05, but no 4.05 software. It's not like we're using good software now
and they're trying to protect us from some bugs. It won't cost them anything
to post something that is more useable, that fixes some of the known bugs and
lets us SEE that something is being done. I don't see anything NewTek stands
to lose by posting 4.04c if they don't want to call it 4.05.
My drives (2 9gigs) are full of one project that I can't lay to tape
without stuttering, I don't have the time to try backing it all up (it would
take a couple of days). The footage was recorded directly into the Flyer, to
keep the resolution as high as possible before making a first generation tape
complete with titles, graphics and all. Even if I made the time to backup the
files, my Flyer acts up after a few hours and drives become inaccessable
because of overheating (each drive is in its own enclosure, with its own fan),
my guess is that the Flyer software, in its present form, really pushes these
drives to their limits and NewTek is pushing me to mine.
Regards,
Norman Austin 70743,1535
I still haven't reinstalled my Toaster and Flyer since they went back to
Topeka.
Why should I?
The Flyer doesn't work – and the promised 4.0.5. upgrade is still sometime
in the future – as is the mythical 4.1 upgrade that might allow me to easily
cut action.
In my case, I truly feel had because I was assured by a very high ranking
NewTekian that I'd be able to cut action on the Flyer – and I can't. Period.
I think Chuck should provide an update here within the next few days –
including absolute drop-dead dates for the release of 4.0.5. and 4.1 or you get
a full refund – and at least people know where they stand.
Jerry
Jerry,
As I stated before, I will be satisfied if we are at least shown what
progress is being made by posting regular updates on CI$ and their BBS. I
might even feel less neglected if we were told specifically, what the problems
are, instead of "test discovered more problems so that means another build and
more tests".
Regards,
Norman Austin 70743,1535
Well, I've pretty much reached the point of being totally fed up.
Even though I do video as a hobby, I would still like to be able to get some
use out of the Flyer – and without it being able to cut action sequences, it
does me no good.
Jerry
Norm:
I agree with you on one level but the problem is that if they start getting
to specific people start taking reports as promisis. If they were to tell you
that the new code in 4.05 has been writen as a Timeline, Then at the last
minute they had to scrap that revision because of some unresolvable bug, some
people might get really (even more) frustrated. When your walking on as many
eggshell as they are I really cant blame them for playing it safe. Of course
this doesn't satisfy my need to know what's going on…
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
PMJI,
<<FlyerHeads-
You ask is anyone fed up? HELL YES!!!!!! >>
our production house here has ALMOST EVERY version of LW and we are more than
fed up!
Every version of LW we have is the pre-release! It doesn't render quick at
all!
Our 300mhz ALPHA doesn't render that quick either! What really is annoying is
that LW can't export dxf and a bunch o' other stuff… Every time we get a hold
of
somebody at 'TEK they say 'wait a couple of weeks more'. yeah right-we have
30,000 frames to be rendered and LW is buggy like crazy.
You know what-I'm a 3ds guy at heart(please don't flame me<g>!), and I had to
learn LW-it wasn't fun at all. Our producer is totally fed up-we have been
waiting
for a final version of LW for 5+ months! What is really annoying is that 'TEK
kept
telling us the ol' line 'a couple of weeks more' I realy feel bad for the loyal
LW users. They have put up with alot of-stuff…I just finished browsing over
this upgrade to v4 deal. Seems that us pc people aren't the only ones angry…
What this ultimately translates to is migration-we're going to port to 3ds
r4-then 3ds MAX-which will blow away everything else-(sorry I'm a 3ds guy<bg>)
Maybe 'TEK will smarten up-LW has a loyal following-though its seems smaller
and smaller every day…
Rant mode off<g>,
-Bill
Mark,
before you get a IMMix look closely at:
1) Media 100
2) DPS Perception/RazorPro combination.
They both cost less than the IMMix and from what I could see at NAB and doing
some "hands on" with the Media 1000, the quality of the final uotput is better.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Thanks Wayne,
Actually I'm still optimistic enough to believe that the Flyer will finally
work and be a good system for my needs.
But if it doesn't, yes I will take a long hard look at all the others. I
mentioned IMMix because I editied on it for a year, I know the system and it
works.
I guess that decision will be made after 4.05 is released. In spite of the
aggravation and long hours, I've done enough work on thew Flyer this summer to
almost pay for it. Fortunately, the jobs I had were able to be done within the
limitations of the Flyer. The next one may not be.
So, I'm just waiting for some good news from Chuck . . .
Mark Karney
Norwest Communications Inc.
I just saw a demo of the Media 100 last Friday. Am very interested in the DPS
Perception with RazorPro sofrware to replace Amiga 2000 as an animation
workstation.
Has anyone seen the RazorPro software? I've had a glimpse of DPS Perception,
and liked it very much.
David