#3DS Max WIn95 version
41 messages in this thread
Ok very impressive, but no "official" source has stated that 3DS MAX will not
run under Win 95, Nor for that matter has anyone stated that there will be any
version that will run as a proper Win95 app, this seems particularly stupid, as
of the 24th of the month, thats just under 2 weeks away, Microsoft is
apparently planning a mass shipment of Win95 and will no longer be producing
Win 3.1/3.11 or DOS, ok I may have got that wrong but thats how I read it.
So anyone bying a nice new machine has a terific option, they can now get a
great new machine with Win 95, but will be able to run 3DS V4.00 after some
messing around, but will have no gaurantee that any future version of 3DS will
run on it, or they can get a new machine with NT pre installed, and wait at
least 4 months, probably closer to 6 here in the UK knowing Autodesks record of
releasing software here, even if they do get a Win 95 machine they will still
have to purchase Win NT if indeed MAX will only run under NT.
Then of course ther's the cost of all this, assuming Adesk does its normal
policy if I want to change to 3DS MAX it will cost me 495 pounds sterling to
upgrade or about 795 dollars plus the cost of the purchase of NT say another
450 dollars, not to mention the downtime whilst I try to get my existing
hardware and software to run under NT at least if it ran under Win 95 I should
have a lot less problems in the upgrade process and a lot less money lost,
probably about 1000 dollars worth !
Ok so NT supports Multiple processors but then according to the last press
relese I saw so will Win 95, and as I understand it 3DS MAX uses its own API to
run under Win NT not HOOPS so there goes another potential problem, from what I
have been told anything that runs under Win 95 should run under NT but not vice
versa due to the extra functions and security built into NT, this is primarily
in the file management area, the security systems and hoops. If 3DS MAX uses
none of these and I dont see that it should, then there is no reason that it
shouldn't run almost if not quite equally as well under Win 95 as Win NT !
I just wish that for once Autodesk would do the decent thing and say what it
will or won't support as an opperating system, currently I'm running 3DS 4
under DOS, Animator Pro under DOS and AutoCAD R13 with AEC 5.0 under Windows.
Now Autodesk has already stated that it will be producing a version of Autocad
for Win 95 very shortly after Win 95 becomes available and is recomending the
upgrade to that but if I do so I could lose out next year when MAX comes out.
I'm only a little customer I work from home and dont have the huge resources
that many people have and I'd just like to know where autodesk is leading with
this new product, so will someone please please please give a tiny bit of extra
clarification and not get a comment such as Autodesk does not comment about
unreleased opperating systems / software .
Hi David,
<<.I just wish that for once Autodesk would do the decent thing and say what it
will or won't support as an opperating system..>>
I can understand your purchasing frustrations. At this time, Autodesk is
clearly saying that MAX is being developed to be as robust a professional 3d
animation product as possible under WinNT's professional OS.
jonas[adesk]
>Ok so NT supports Multiple processors but then according to the last press
relese I saw so will Win 95.<
There is no way for Win95 to run on anything but a single Intel CPU. W95 will
never support multiple processors because it is tied to MS-DOS. If you want
Win95 interface it will be available for NT at the end of the year.
>and as I understand it 3DS MAX uses its own API to run under Win NT not HOOPS
so there goes another potential problem<
I thought Heidi (HDI) stood for Hoops Device Interface? Or something like that,
its in the press releases somewhere.
>then there is no reason that it shouldn't run almost if not quite equally as
well under Win 95 as Win NT !<
Some people would like to run 3DS MAX under Win95 to avoid the extra 8MB of
overhead that NT requires. I don't know if that will happen, but at this point
I don't think Win95 is robust enough to support a demanding application like
3DS MAX. I know I won't fell safe running under Win95.
>I just wish that for once Autodesk would do the decent thing and say what it
will or won't support as an opperating system<
They did, they stated 3DS MAX will run under Windows NT.
>…currently I'm running 3DS 4 under DOS, Animator Pro under DOS and AutoCAD
R13 with AEC 5.0 under Windows.<
Same here, except I don't run AEC. I only have MS-DOS installed for
3DSR4/AniPro and FXFighter (great game). Everything else I use under NT 3.51,
ACadR13 is much faster under NT.
>Now Autodesk has already stated that it will be producing a version of Autocad
for Win 95 very shortly after Win 95 becomes available and is recomending the
upgrade to that but if I do so I could lose out next year when MAX comes out.<
You can probably run the W95 Shell version of ACad R13 under NT with the W95
shell for NT. For demanding uses like CAD and 3D I don't see any other OS to
run but NT. I'll keep W95 on my machine for the occasional game and to support
W95 clients, but I don't plan on spending much time using W95.
>I'm only a little customer I work from home and dont have the huge resources
that many people have and I'd just like to know where autodesk is leading with
this new product, so will someone please please please give a tiny bit of extra
clarification and not get a comment such as Autodesk does not comment about
unreleased opperating systems / software.<
Most people can empathize with limited resources, but if you are running ACad
R13/AEC/3DS your resources aren't that bad. I'm staying with NT even if 3DS MAX
runs under Win95. I don't think 3DS MAX has to go after the Win95 market, I
think a Win95 version would give the impression that it is crippled in some
way.
Resources are definately limited I owe about 15k dollars !
Any way I think I have the problem solved, more or less <G>, I will upgrade now
to Win 95 on my existing machine, then next year sometime I will get a nice new
machine with 64Mb ram dual processors and win NT installed just to run 3DS MAX,
Oh well that will put me further into debt but what the heck eh <VSG>
Well, the screen shots in the library are showin 3DS Max under Win95
???………
We're showing MAX with NT3.51's Win95 shell since that's what NT will look like
when MAX ships this winter. Believe me, you want what NT offers you.
– Phil
>>nice new machine with 64Mb ram dual processors and win NT installed just
>>to run 3DS MAX
Well, if you're running ACAD r13, then why run it under Win95 when you already
have the NT version (since ACADr13 ships w/ ALL Intel platform versions
together)?
The only reason for Win95's existence is to ease, esp w/ the myriad of home
users, the transition to NT by providing a platform that is designed to provide
the greatest compatibility w/ legacy apps.
Right now, I have DOS and Windows (okay, and NT, but ignore that for a minute)
on my machine. I have a lot of programs that were designed to run under DOS
(some of which also have Win versions, but don't necessarily perform as well),
and a bunch of software that runs only under Windows. I have to jump back and
forth a lot. I don't like to, but If I want to use these particular apps
(which is the whole point, right?), then so be it.
Now, DOS programs are beginning to disappear, and NT programs are popping up
(PhotoShop, Freehand, ACAD, 3DS, etc). So now, it looks like I'll be keeping
DOS for a _while_, but then I'll have to dump it, and jump back and forth
between NT and Win3.11/Win95 — until my old Win apps have all made the next
transition.
There's just NO way to both keep using both old software and new in one OS on
one machine. Microsoft could have just said, "Hey, we're discontinuing Windows
and everyone will have to move to NT _now_. Period." It sure would have been a
LOT easier for them. But that would have caused problems, too. Win95 is a
transitional platform, and for users of serious apps (I suppose I mean
heavy-duty mission-critical apps, like ACAD and 3DS for achitects, engineers
and animators [and Photoshop & Freehand for commercial design shops & the
like]) I don't really see that it makes a lot of sense to bother with the
inbetween, financially. The best performance will be in the target platform,
not the interim.
And, I figure, if a casual user can handle the $7,000 for ACAD & 3DS, then they
can surely foot a few more bucks for a setup that can handle them.
Dave
Dave,
>> But that would have caused problems, too. Win95 is a transitional platform,
and for users of serious apps (I suppose I mean heavy-duty mission-critical
apps, like ACAD and 3DS for achitects, engineers and animators [and Photoshop &
Freehand for commercial design shops & the like]) I don't really see that it
makes a lot of sense to bother with the inbetween, financially. <<
That really sums up the strategy that Microsoft relayed at CAD CAMP. NT is a
serious platform for serious apps, period.
Chuck
>>NT is a serious platform…
I guess that means the Monty Python CD-ROM probably won't run on it, eh? <g>
Dave
Dave,
It might, but only on NT Version 3.51.a.1.~!
Looking for the darn pi symbol,
Chuck
By the by Chuck, as you're a MM SuperDealer <g>, way back there was some
mention on the forum here, that MS would probably make some sort of discount on
NT available as a bundle w/ MAX. Any word on this? I've already picked up a
copy of NT for the office, but I'm thinking of my personal copy.
Or will I be just as good getting it for ~$300 from MicroWarehouse?
Dave
Dave,
>> way back there was some mention on the forum here, that MS would probably
make some sort of discount on NT available as a bundle w/ MAX. <<
No word on that one. But, Autodesk/MS have a VERY strong "partnership"
arrangement (A VP from MS was the lead-off speaker at the last day of CAD
CAMP!) so I wouldn't be suprised. NOTHING official though!
Chuck
Hardware support matters digitizers, scanners, video capture.
When I say older hardware, I mean 386/slow-486 systems w/ limited RAM, etc….
(especially home-type systems). [Although actually, according to some tests in
the latest PCWeek, it seems like to get any performance at all on Win95, you
need to have at least a 486/33 w/ 16Mb RAM….]
I agree that many peripherals have a much greater longevity than the boxes they
run in — this is why we'll still see ISA busses in P6 boxes! I hope that,
based on the fact that a number of corporations will likely be going NT over
Win95 (esp when 3.6 comes out in early '96), and that most specialty apps will
really be written for NT (Photoshop, QFX and MAX, for instance), [though they
_may_ run under Win95], will encourage hardware vendors to increase/improve
their drivers for NT. (Or will just create some at all — I'm still waiting
for Summagraphics NT drivers — our office is chock-full of Summa tablets, and
I'd like to put some NT stations on-line w/ ACADr13 [when IT gets un-buggy
enough], but the only thing they've got is a "beta" driver that is crippled so
that you have to set your clock/date back to pre-April 1st, 1995 to get it to
work!)
Dave
David,
According to Ron Scott, the NT version of QFX runs under Win95 & Win 3.1
just fine.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
> According to Ron Scott, the NT version of QFX runs under Win95 & Win 3.1 just
fine.<
Ask him which he recommends it run on, even with a single processor. I believe
he'd strongly recommend NT
>>Hardware support matters…
Of course it does Rico, but it's really not up to the OS to support everything
out there. It's up the manufacturers of the hardware to write the drivers. You
need to get on your products manufacturers and tell them to write NT drivers.
Right now many manufacturers are making the move to support NT. You can tell by
the number of NT beta drivers out there right now. It's only a matter of time.
DM
It makes no sense to me why Autodesk would go through all the trouble to keep
max from running under win95. A single code base can support both system
unless you're adding some kind of security features, and who needs that.
There's more to the power of an operating system then how often it crashes. NT
doesn't support most scanners, most video capture cards. With win95 you could
use one operating system to run almost everything you need to run.
The reason or why it makes sense to go with win NT is simple. POWER.
your not going to get that from win 95. the pc's are closing the gap between
pc's and sgi's. There is a hell of a Bang for your buck with this platform and
the Max. Keeps me competing with the big boys, keeps them looking over there
shoulders and keeps me off there payroll and running my own.
God bless the Yost Group.
Rev. sherwood
next week we will discuss:
"If you rendered a tree in a forest, and nobody was there, would it
cast a shadow?"
I'm not arguing against going with NT at all. For all you out there with your
dual alpha system it would be great. I just saying it wouldn't be too much
trouble to keep backward compatibility with the mainstream operating system.
Maybe I'm looking at it from a business sense; you don't have to sacrifice
technology to allow MAX to run on win95. Lightwave gives you backwards
compatibility with the power to support multiprocessor and risc processors. I
could be wrong, but it doesn't look like Autodesk is making good business
decisions.
Would you have a great program that you needed to buy a specific OS for, or
would you want to run it on any OS you wanted, and have the programmers so
spread out ensuring compatability with this-n-that that it would be "watered
down"? I'll take the former.
No one has given me one good reason why MAX would have to be watered down; if
someone would I would keep silent, and forever banish my self from this forum.
Well, not quite, but I would concede and just read messages instead of writing
them. As for as one great program, there are a lot of great programs, plus
hardware, and plus RAM requirements. Besides I will be moving to NT when its
ready, now its not ready.
>No one has given me one good reason why MAX would have to be watered down<
Ok, first- Windoes 95 is an inferior workstation OS to NT. It is more
concerned with gaming performance and dos compatability than with stability and
true 32bit performance. Although it's cool to look at, has some nifty
features, etc it's still not the same as NT.
For only a few MB more (and if you're serious about 3D, a few MB is not a big
deal) you can get a more stable OS, and one that is scaleable upto something
that competes with (and often could surpass) many (if not all) SGI machines.
There are only X# of programmers. Therefore, the resources are limited to
those people. They can ensure compliance with the limitations of Win95, or can
add more features and performance to NT.
Aside from that, I can't get more specific. They're the programmers, they've
looked into it all (don't doubt they haven't looked at Win95) and that's what
they decided. It's their neck on the line if they loose market share, but they
have to make hard decisions that may not please everyone out there.
> I will be moving to NT when its ready, now its not ready. <
ok. You don't need it now anyways. MAX isn't out, and obviously your other
needs aren't met. I don't doubt they will though by the time MAX is out.
You'll even get the nifty new interface around that time as well. 🙂
Regards,
JNJ
Rico,
OK, let me try, using a quote from INFOWORLD magazine.
"Many observers cite the fact that Windows 95 still clings to a 16-bit past in
critical areas such as the USER.EXE and parts of the Graphics Device
Interface."
"'The slowest things will slow you down more than the fastest things will speed
you up,' said a source at a large hardware manufacturer, referring to the
compromises made in Windows 95 to address backward compatibility with the
16-bit world vs. the new technology added to improve performance."
3DS MAX relies highly on the Ithaca HDI (Heidi) graphics pipeline to provide
high interactivity.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
>It makes no sense to me why Autodesk would go through all the trouble to keep
max from running under win95.<
I think they are wise not to support Win95, it would be a hassle. I just
installed the shipping Win95 and I have to say I think it is a dog. The
multitasking is nothing compared to NT. I don't think Win95 can handle an
application like 3DS MAX. Six months from now NT will have the full Win95
interface, and it only requires 4-8MB more RAM than Win95. You won't be able to
run 3DS MAX 16MB under NT or Win95, the minimum will be 32MB for a realistic
system. A good system will need 64MB. I'm not going to run a rinky-dink OS like
Win95 on a Alpha or P6 based system. The reliability of NT will run circles
around Win95.
3DS MAX is high end software, more so than 3DSR4, if you are going to be a
professional animator you wouldn't even think about using Win95.
Have you used NT? Win95 doesn't compare.
I've used both and I must disagree. Multitasking may not be as robust, but
that should improve as I upgrade to 32-bit applications. I removed NT because
I was low on hard drive space. You mention the advantages of NT but you don't
mention the fact that you can't run 3ds, and the hardware support is dismal.
As an animator I use a scanner and video capture card(DC1). NT supports
neither. Win 95 supports all three. With it I never have to reboot to
accomplish something. One system that supports everything with the ability to
get a performance boost with 32-bit applications and plug and play hardware.
The choice is clear for me for now. I don't have alpha chips and
multiprocessors, and not many people do. Power should just be measured by
technical specs, it should also be measured by the ability to support
everything you have.
It would seem that rebooting is quite a big deal with you. Personally,
however, I would much rather reboot _one time_ to be sure that I was running a
fast, solid, very dependable OS than to end up having to reboot several times
due to lock-ups and instability which would end up risking a loss of data. To
me, loosing work is a lot more annoying than one reboot. Also, it would be
wise to stop insisting that WinNT is "Not ready for prime-time" while saying
that Windows 95 is, as it does not point out a shortcoming on NTs part, but
rather a lack of information on yours.
Please excuse me for jumping in in the middle of heated debate. Aside from any
judgment on whether it is a better choice for Adesk or not.(Simply because I do
not have enough knowlege to make that.) Have you read the new issue of PC
magazine? It had an issue that P6 will probably run 50 -60% faster than
Pentiums on NT platform, but could either not give any speed gain or loss on
Win95 (depending on the aps).
I got a feeling that somewhere out there, there is an agreement that from now
on, any sereious high-end (x-86 programs) will target on NT. If that so, I do
just hope NT will suppor more peripehrals.
( I actually hope so very badly, since I am one of the NT/DOS/95 users, and
trust NT the most.)
P.S.
By the way, I have not seen any documents on MAX yet. Is is that exciting?
Luka Kito
73664,1131
There are some docs about MAX in the libs, just keyword search MAX.
Jason
You hit the nail on the head Tim. NT IS Windows on steroids. I have been using
NT 3.51 for about 6 months now and it absolutely kicks a**. I have also been
using a beta version of the 95 style interface and must admit I like it
although this could just be due to my boredom with the antique Windows
interface. I think that once more people here have the oportunity to work under
NT they will agree. I can remember these similir growing pains with AutoCAD
around the time we all jumped from R2.62 to R9 and several folks broke off and
went to Sparc Stations.
Lee
Rico, I was just looking through the messages and wanted to say something more
regarding NT vs. WIN95. I think you're misinformed about 95's compatibility
with everything. Neither my PAR or my Fargo Primera will work under 95. The
manufacturers are currently developing drivers for both OS' but NT will be
supported. Anyway, I will say that 95's multimedia capabilities are much better
optimizied than NT's. The Robroy.avi played _way_ better under 95 than it does
under NT. But I'm sure the next release of NT will incorporate those same
abilities.
Take care.
DM
>>I just wish that for once Autodesk would do the decent thing and say what it
will or won't support as an opperating system<<
I thought that they explicitly said that they are releasing 3DS Max for Windows
NT. What is hard to understand about that? What is cryptic?
The one press release I just checked only mentions Win NT and makes no_ mention
of NT.
– gruhn
I totally agree. Win 95 will not support multiple processors, but then again
how many people have those types of system.
Rico, I think that _many_ if not all of the professional animators will upgrade
to either multiple 586 based systems or change platforms to something like
Alpha or MIPS. With '95 this would not be possible. Also I don't believe '95
supports OpenGL – although I'm not sure. Microsoft has even publically stated
that they'll be pushing NT within 3-4 years once the desktop PC is powerful
enough for the majority of people to take advantage of NT. In short, _I_
believe the choice to stick to NT has much foresight. Besides, what do you have
against using NT? All the major 3D apps are going to NT anyway.
DM
>_I_ believe the choice to stick to NT has much foresight. Besides, what do you
have against using NT? All the major 3D apps are going to NT anyway.<
There are so many apps going to NT it will be hard to avoid using NT for
graphics professionals. Especially when you compare it to Win95.
No one has anything against NT. If it supports your hardware peripherals its a
good choice. I'm just arguing for backwards win95 support. Lightwave has it,
there is no reason that I know of that Max couldn't have it. Technology at all
cost is not how 3ds got where it was. Scalibility is what put 3ds on top. Now
they are in danger of gutting their market.
'95 does support Open GL (with extra drivers, I think).
>'95 does support Open GL (with extra drivers, I think).<
Win95 does not support OpenGL until (at least) the next release (Win96?).
Besides, with the display drivers still being 16bit (USER.EXE), and the P6 not
performing great on a 32bit/16bit split (like Win95), there should be no reason
why people with well specified systems should want to keep an (already
antiquated) OS like Win95.
>Win 95 will not support multiple processors, but then again how many people
have those types of system.<
Not that many people had a reason for multiple CPU's. With 3DS MAX coming there
will be many choosing Multiple P5/P6's and other CPU's like the Alpha. Though
we may see Mips 4000 and PowerPC versions of 3DS MAX I don't think those chips
have anything to give over a P5/P6. There are not that many Mips NT boxes and I
feel the PowerPC will be used only for PowerMac machines. The PowerPC is
turning out to be a dud. You get essentially the same performance as a Pentium
at close to the same cost, but not all the software for the x86 machines.
A dual CPU motherboard costs about $100 more than a regular motherboard. A
90/100MHz CPU will be about $200-250 in six months when 3DS MAX ships. For $300
you can get a 60% performance improvement.