#Sysop Forum Censorship?
24 messages in this thread
Don,
I have a real flame here over what I consider censorship by one of the
forum Sysops (if it was you then you'll know about the rest of this and if it
wasn't you then I think you should be aware of what happened).
I posted a message #10954 and its continuation #10955 in Hot News and
Rumours. The content of the message was fairly important I thought and in an
effort to ensure that it was read by as manypeople as possible I entitled the
message "1.3 is shipping NOW!". In the very first paragraph I explained that
the message was not in fact about 1.3 being shipped but rather this was an
effort to ensure that people did read the message.
An hour after I posted the message I checked the message base and found
that the subject header on the oKNinal message had been changed to "No Way" on
the original message and 1084S on the continuation. I assume that the only one
who could do this is a Sysop.
Now get on your asbestos suit……I very strongly OBJECT to my message
header being changed. It is true that the header was not reporting a fact and
was intended as a ruse. However it was not in my opinion an inflammatory,
derogatory, obacene or libelous heading and I don't think it should have been
changed. Such a ploy is commonin the advertising world. The only very weak
argument that could be used by whoever did it is that he didn't want to have
people just read the header and start spreading the word
<continued>
Ed,
I changed it. You may like bait and switch tactics but I do not. You
knowingly and purposefully attempted to mislead. That is neither ethical nor
professional for an event organizer nor is it appreciated by those you mislead.
Well I can undestand your position and maybe I should plead guilty to that to a
small extent but I don't think people would trmendously object to it after
having read the message. However I think your substitution (as I said to Don)
was very smart alecky and insensitive and equally unethical and unprofessional
for a Sysop. I think if you thought about why I did it that perhaps you might
have chosen an alternative header that would be equalling compelling and at the
same time acceptable to your standards.
Ed
Ed,
Bait and switch is not acceptable. I don't make it a habit to lie or
deliberately mislead. If you want to repost the messages with a more realistic
subject header, that's fine with me. You've got a personal project to promote.
Promoting it with intentional misleading 'advertising' is not the way to make
it a success.
Well first of all its not a "personal" project…..I've spent both time and
money to try and do something which I think will be good for the Amiga and the
Amiga community. And whereas I do admit that your position has some validity
and that I could be construed as being culpable (albeit inwhat I feel is a good
cause and my actions are not causing anybody any harm….and I do admit my ruse
in the first para) you have not seen fit to defend your actions in replacing my
header with something that is inane and imcomprehensible to anyone reading the
rest of the message. So why don't we leave it to the forum members to decide
who was right or wrong? Ok?
Ed
Ed,
Without getting into the current title of the thread, and whether it should
have that title now, I would like to point out that the matter of 1.3 is
currently a highly charged and sensitive subject. Currently, a few members are
embroiled in a heated debate over what constitutes an 'announcement' vs. what
constitutes 'preview' or 'leaked information from beta testers'. No matter what
the side taken, it is generally held that the perception of CBM by users is
suffering badly due to the perception of what has or has not been announced.
Your title hits a sensitive nerve, and could easily be taken by many to mean
what it says, with subsequent, unnecessary harm to CBM and the Amiga.
-larry
Ed,
While I understand your motivations, I do feel that it was quite wrong to
post the message with the intentionally-misleading subject matter. While you
may have wanted to insure that your message was read by all members of the
forum, many members are attempting to keep themselves limited to a very tight
budget, and your attempt to mislead them to spend money to read the message was
wrong.
Regarding Steve's actions – well, I've mixed feelings regarding his choice
of a substitute header, but feel that his actions were probably more moderate
than what I would have recommended or done (oh, but were I King). Personally, I
feel that it would have been more appropriate to have just completely deleted
the message from the message base (and sent you a private message explaining
what I had done and why). I do not think that Steve's actions should be
considered "censorship", merely looking out for the interests of the majority
of the forum membership. The Amigaforum is a class operation, and doesn't need
"bait and switch" tactics to trick Forum members into spending more of their
money here than they feel comfortable with.
The preceeding has been the personal opinion of but one member of the
AmigaForum.
…Bob
P.S. I do wish you luck with your project.
Bob,
You wish Ed luck with his project?! Heck, yU better start wishing
yourself luck! What are _YOU_ doing October 2nd?? I happen to know that on
the 2nd tcr! will be down, Steve's going to lock you out, your ST's going to
ambush your A2k and chop all the cables leading to your 2 20MBers, the coming
RSN 277N is going to get there on the 3rd, etc. <grin>
BTW, Willie, Paul, John D. and I are trying to get something going at
Children's on the 2nd, think you'd like to come along? <smiiile>
-John
Ed, I wholeheartedly support the idea of AMIGA FRIENDShip day. How could I not
with our club name so prominently displayed? If I had seen you last
announcement with the title you had originally, I would have been furious. I
probably would have written all sorts of things for which I would have been
profusely apologetic later. We're hyping the day at our club, and I suspect
will have a pretty good turnout, but I'm glad Steve changed the title (it saved
me some long distance money too, as I would have CERTAINLY called Steve voice
if I'd seen the original).
It's done all the time, Steve. It may not make it right, but it certainly is
an acceptable form of advertising.
…Steve
Not here, it isn't.
Steve Ahlstrom,
Ride out the storm. You did the right thing. I appreciate the fact that you
are watching this area close enough to catch this attempt to mislead so
quickly. Keep up the good work.
(( Dan ))
That's not a choice that you have to make, Steve. Whether or not Ed used
the right words to grab attention, is simply not a matter which you should
be deciding for us. As I have mentioned in another message which I am sure
I will be gang-flamed for, as a paying member of this forum, I object
profusely. Jim
Jim,
Of course you do. If Ed were not a friend of yours or if the project were
not that of your club it would be interesting to hear what you would have to
say. The means (misrepresentation) does not justify the end result. As for as
I'm concerned, it does nothing more than sully the image of an otherwise
worthwhile event.
In your opinion. Well, I guess I will have to bow to that now, won't I, since
YOUR opinion is what seems to count here. After all, if a message header isn't
completely honest and truthful, in YOUR opinion, then it should be removed, in
YOUR opinion.
So I guess you are right…in YOUR opinion. <Trying to find the parts in the
forum guidelines and regs. that says message headers are the discretion of
Steve's opinons..oh yes…in fine print..got it.>
Don't get me wrong Steve, I don't dislike you personally or anything like that,
but I just want it to go on the record that I feel what you did was wrong, and
I realize I am in the minority. Let's just leave it at that.
cheers.
Jim
You might re-read RULES.TXT in Lib 1.
Jim,
As Stave has pointed out on several occasions int he past, THIS IS NOT A
DEMOCRACY. He did what he did and that's all that matters.
…Dave
Jim,
Actually, choices like that are done by Sysops all the time… it's what Sysops
are for, partly.
On some forums, sysops regularly change subject headings, simply because
most people tire of reading a message that bears no relation to the
original thread beginning (I'm sure you've run across that a lot). On other
forums, sysops turn their attention elsewhere instead.
Ed's heading tho, an original thread started by himself, bore a title that
had nothing to do with his message, and was obviously meant as a "cheater"
to get people to read it. Kinda like yelling "fire" with no fire, then
wondering what all the fuss and police are doing around him <grimace>.
I'm not sure what I would've done if I were Steve, but if I were Ed I might
have first asked why the title was changed before yelling "censorship"! On
the other hand, I'm sure it was obvious to Ed why it was changed, which
meant the next step would have been to ask to have the heading changed
again, but to something more reasonable.
The most surprising thing to forum members all across *any* network system
is that "hey this isn't a democracy". Nope, sure isn't. It's only because
all sysops bend over backwards to give the appearance of one, that the
forums are as uncensored as they are (which is 99.99% of the time).
Ccertainly sysops wish to promote the use of their forums, and enhance the
enjoyment members get off the forum. Preventing obvious abuse of the forum
sure seems to me to fall into that realm.
best – Kev
I don't have the time to waste on jokes, lies, or misleading message headers.
I am very active in several forums, and don't want to waste time or money with
games. If you have a legitamate message, give it an appropriate header
(hopefully an interesting one) and people can choose whether to read it.
Ron
Steve, as you might guess I agree with you're changing the header.
Ron
My opinion is that this is a service that Ed is paying for, as are the
people who read the message, and I think Ed has as much right to call his
message whatever he wants to. Most of the threads that happen here rarely
end up describing what is in the message. Even if his original message had
been about whatever the title said, a couple of messages down the line it
probably would not have been – would you have changed it then?
Ed is only one of 10,000+ regular AmigaForum members. Glaring purposeful
untruths to get someone else to spend their money reading his message is
not reasonable.
Ed –
In as much as I don't believe the message is gone I suggest you drop the
inflamatory "censorship" and perhaps use "editing". A small part of your
message was changed by the person whose job it is to guide the Amiga
forums. He was doing his job… what I, and the vast majority of the rest
of us pay him to do with our fees to CIS. [Steve – DON'T PANIC! I do not
expect you to kowtow to your adoring public. <grin>]
Misleading headers such as yours would be quite an irritant. Honesty is
always the best policy among honorable people.
– Nelson …
Just one small correction. "A small part of your message was
changed" is incorrect. Once a message is saved, no one can change the text
or edit any part of it. The only commercial system that I am aware of that
allows sysops to edit messages that were saved (and not left by themselves)
is Delphi. I changed the subject header.