#Architectural visualiz.
17 messages in this thread
Greg and all,
I have been contacting local architects/engineers to offer my services for
design visualization, via Autocad .dxf conversions into 3DS. There seems to be
demand for four types of visualizations:
1.) Walkthroughs. The most expensive and dramatic, but probalbly the least
required because of the extra $.
2.) Hardcopy stills. Perhaps taking the place of their standard perspective
sketches.
3.) Series of stills put to videotape. Perhaps 5-10 seconds each, loop the
series for repeated viewing.
4.) Flics. To give designers feedback.
I'm trying to determine appropriate pricing for my area
(mid-sized Midwestern city, pop. of it and surrounding communities
about 150,000). They balk when I throw out fighures of
$250-500/sec., depending on realism. Normally they want to spend
$300-1200 on visualization for the entire project. Have also looked
at charging $30/40 an hour for my time, plus $30/hr. for rendering to
tape (S-VHS).
Any feedback welcome! (Getting a lot of use from _Inside_3DStudio_. Good
work!)
Paul D. Sanford
LEVEL 5 PRODUCTIONS
Hi Paul,
Architects are such cheapskates aren't they?
If these firms tried to hire a traditional illustration firm, they'd
be spending that $300-$1200 budget on a single marker rendering
(probably much more). Of course since you're using a computer it's no
work at all and so it should be cheaper, right? <BG>
Even if the firm tried to have one of their senior production staff
whip up a marker rendering, it would easily take a full day and
assuming a billable rate for the employee of $45/hr you're still
talking $360 for a single image. You will probably have the most
marketing success by pointing out that you can create a much higher
quality 3D model for the price of a few traditional marker
renderings, and that the more views they need of the model the
cheaper the per image cost becomes.
While billing by finished second of animation is common in the
broadcast world, architects and engineers are much more comfortable
with the concept of an hourly rate for service provided. What is
important is that, regardless of the billing method, you ensure that
you are sufficiently compensated for your work. Just for comparison,
a survey of architectural billing rates shows that your $30-$40 per
hour rate is equal to the average billable rate for intermediate
drafters. IOW, you are equating your skills with 3D Studio and
animation with the value of someone drafting sections and details.
Good Luck,
Steven
P.S. I'm glad you liked the book, thanks!
Thanks for the response.
>>> Just for comparison, a survey of architectural billing rates shows that
your $30-$40 per hour rate is equal to the average billable rate for
intermediate drafters. IOW, you are equating your skills with 3D Studio and
animation with the value of someone drafting sections and details.<<
Sorry, but I'm a little fuzzy as to whether or not you are implying that
my skills are worth more than an intermediate drafter. From a creative and
personal $ invested standpoint I would say yes. Or did you simply mean that my
price should be viewed as a reasonable, given the above. BTW, $35/hr is the
rate billed for intermediate drafters by the firm I am working with now.
I'm going to charge only for finished product on this, my first project,
because I am spending quite a bit of time learning the process of dxf>>3ds.
I'm a quick learner hands-on, but was wondering if there are any basic ACAD or
architecture design books that would give me a better vocabulary and
understanding…(are there standard ways to organize by layers, what info would
be found on what layers and how much of that will transfer, what layers/info
will I tend to need to dxfout, etc). This is a learning experience for both of
us, but I don't want to wear them (or forum members!) out with too many
questions.
Thanks again,
Paul
Hi Paul,
You are the only one who can decide if your skills are more valuable than
those of the typical drafter, but I would be inclined to think that they are.
Right now mid-range drafters are a lot easier to find than skilled 3D
artists/animators.
Also, if you care to look it from a value added stand point, you are
producing images that will help the developer or designer attract investors,
win clients, and garner approval from review boards and zoning commissions.
Those are some pretty important steps in the life cycle of a design project.
Since you are striking out on your own, you might find it useful to drop in
on a few other forums. CONSULT, USEN (US ENtrepreneur), and WORK are all
forums that deal with the issues of being self-employed. While they are not
geared towards a particular profession, they deal with such issues as
understanding overhead, marketing, networking (the social kind), and
determining rates so that you don't starve. The MULTIMEDIA forum also has a
section on business issues as well.
As far as reference books go, of course I'm partial to "Inside 3D Studio"
<G>. I think that you'll find Chapter 11 very helpful with AutoCAD issues.
There is also the book "Fallingwater in 3D Studio: A Case Study and Tutorial"
by Onward Press (505) 865-7504.
Studying various AutoCAD references for Architectural drawing may be helpful
but you also must keep in mind that the layer management system that you want
for 3DS transfer will be much different from the layering system your clients
will want to use for production. You will need to coordinate layer conversion
strategies with your clients or learn enough AutoCAD to make these changes
yourself.
Finally, keep asking questions! The only way to get help is to ask for it and
if anyone gets worn out they can just stop replying.
Steven
>>As far as reference books go, of course I'm partial to "Inside 3D Studio"
<G>. I think that you'll find Chapter 11 very helpful with AutoCAD issues.
There is also the book "Fallingwater in 3D Studio: A Case Study and Tutorial"
by Onward Press (505) 865-7504.<<
Yes, Chapter 11 has been my lifeline! I've done two presentations this
week knowing nothing about ACAD except what I had read there. I would think
there would be a market of some kind for it's expansion into a full book (maybe
less than 1,000 pages though!), given the ever expanding role of computers in
design and visualization, and the popularity of ACAD specifically… Will look
into the other book.
>>>You will need to coordinate layer conversion strategies with your clients or
learn enough AutoCAD to make these changes yourself.<<<
I've watched a drafter use ACAD for about an hour now, and the interface
is similar enough to 3DS, it seems. Would love to learn it, but I will see how
business goes…I'm currently shotgunning all possible markets here (TV and
virtual reality too) to see what will fall out. Need to make some $ before I
dive in to another deep program.
Thanks again,
Paul
Paul,
One other thing that I forgot to mention is that you might be able to use the
much less expensive AutoCAD LT (list $495 I think) if all you need to do is
layer conversion. LT works with regular ACAD .DWG files but does not have any
3D commands. You can load, view, and perform 2d manipulations on the 3D
geometry (including layer reassignment), but cannot perform any 3D editing.
Personally, I use both AutoCAD and 3D Studio and find myself jumping between
the two programs for various modeling tasks. They make a very powerful
combination. In fact, for architctural modeling, I've heard some very
favorable comments about Facade which is an AutoCAD add on.
Steven
Hi Steven,
I'll talk to my dealer about ACAD LT. At $495 it is far closer to my
price range!
>> LT works with regular ACAD .DWG files but does not have any
3D commands. You can load, view, and perform 2d manipulations on the 3D
geometry (including layer reassignment), but cannot perform any 3D editing.<<
I've seen a drafter click on an entity on a layer in ACAD and get a screen
of text, which I believe includes height info. Would LT have this feature?
This would help me do the 3D lofting and 3D editing in 3DS. The reason I ask
is that windows, for example, did not loft along with the outer walls of a
.dwg>.dxf>.3D Editor, and the hardcopy plans I was given were poor on vertical
info.
Does LT have the dxf out feature? Are there any other pertinent features
that ACAD LT has or doesn't have that you could mention?
FWIW, for my first project, I used the dxf>3DS mesh as a guide and
reconstructed the geometry myself. The exterior was repeating concrete "Ts"
(?), which had 40 vertices each (top view), and did not cap upon import. There
were over 100 of them. I simply replaced them with my own capped Ts which had
8 vertices (top view), and used copy/array/linear, and surrounded a box with
them. Far less complex, but highly acurate. I had previously tweaked the
dxf>3ds mesh, welding vertices manually, but any significant reduction in
vertices corrupted the shapes of the curved segments.
One final question: I've been asked how I would translate a design such
as a gabled roof, or any object with vertical irregularities. Would I need the
3D capabilities of ACAD?
Thanks,
Paul
Hi Paul,
I'm not really up on the exact features of LT but I'm pretty sure that some
sort of report on object properties (layer, height, XYZ) would be available.
Autodesk supports LT over in the ARETAIL forum. Try checking over there for
more details.
As for the pre-fab T exterior model, it sounds as if you fell victim to a
sloppy ACAD drafter. Your solution to rebuild the model in 3DS, using the
ACAD model as a guide was probably the most sane approach.
There are a number of ways to model gables and offsets. Here are just three
quick possibilities:
1) Model the geometry using AutoCAD's 3D features.
2) Rebuild the geometry from scratch in 3D Studio.
3) Import the 2D ACAD elevations into the Shaper and Loft the gable.
Steven
We don't charge by the finished second for Architectural work
(actually, we seldom charge that way for any type of work!) Most of
our projects are fixed-fee, calculated out by the amount of detail
required, which translates to the amount of time it would take us to
do it. Glad you liked the book!
Greg –
We too have migrated to a flat fee type of billing. We used to quote a $ per
second rate, but got nothing but blank stares. Now we work up a storyboard,
make an estimate based on it, and get the client agree to it. If any changes
are requested we can point to the storyboard as justification for more money.
While we're talking about billing, I got a phone call from someone who had
attended my AEC tutorial in June. Amoung other things, he wanted a quote for
rendering and laying to tape 30-60 sec of animation. He also mentioned that he
had talked to you about the same service. Since we generally avoid doing other
peoples rendering, we don't have a price structure. To help settle an argument
in the office, what would you charge for machine time when rendering other
peoples work? The figure that's being tossed around at the moment is $10-$15
per hour per machine.
– Peter Noldt, Archimage
P.S. Richard and I are teaching a course in 3D Studio at the Univ of Houston
this fall. After looking at the various books out there, we decided that your
book was the best, and recommended it to the students. Good job!
Peter:
Check your e-mail!
Greg Pyros
Hey Paul,
We are providing the same service you described here in Phoenix, AZ. We are
still trying to find our niche (interior designers, landscape architects,
architects, or home builders?). Anyway, we break our fees down as follows: 1.
low detail, 2. medium detail, 3. high detail, with
@$700, @$1100, @$1500 per model respectively. Our best output (and most
accepted form) is with our dye-sublimation printer which outputs 8" x 10"
beautiful hardcopies (@$2.45 each). If you do not want to spend the bucks on
this sort of printer, most photographic labs have them for testing proofs. All
revisions are billed at $35 per hour. We always inform them that compared to
traditional rendering techniques, ours are accurate, realistic, and revisions
are a snap! Good luck!
Nick Hower
Blanchard Hower Associates
Thanks for the info!
You talk about price per model; does this include a set number of images?
What do you charge for additional images?
What type of dye-sublimation printer do you use? I am working with a
desktop publishing guy who has one. The best image I can export as far as
resolution is 1028x768x65k colors. He brings it in to Photostyler or whatever
and its really small, 2 1/4" x ?". He prints at 600×300 dpi, I think. Looks
great small, but loses quite a bit blown up to 8" x 10". Still acceptable,
except for some streaking problems which he's not sure about. What graphics
program have you had the best luck with?
Finally, can you give me an indication of the differences between low,
medium, and high detail? Is it based on resolution, closeness to photrealism,
…?
Thanks,
Paul
Paul:
We usually submit 4 perspectives for that price. Each additional perspective
is @$50 bucks. We use a Fargo Primera Dye-Sublimation printer (@$1,200).
Please mail back if you want any more information because we can get the number
for you and we will get a deal off our next product order!
Adobe Photoshop has been treating us just great. The full version came with
our UMAX scanner (UC840) which we also use to scan backgrounds, people,
vehicals, etc. We import the .tif into photoshop and then boost it up to 203
line screen (the max for the dye-sub) and keep the image at 8" x 6".
Low detail shows space adjacencies, window placements, and looks quite
conceptual. It accurately depicts building heights and gives a feeling of the
shapes involved.
Medium detail shows accurate material representations, and placement.
High detail can easily be mistaken with a photograph! A high detailed image
depicts landscaping, lighting, materials, hardscaping and usually contains a
scanned background of the existing site.
Please note that our prices are low for the high detailed images right now
because we want to prove to these new clients that computer modeling is the way
to go. A high detailed image for a medium sized residence takes us around
35-50 hours to produce (not including rendering time). However, each one takes
less and less time due to the new meshes aquired and our data entry speed.
Hope this helps a little,
Nick Hower
Blanchard Hower Associates
Thanks for the info, it helps a lot! My printer also owns the Fargo
dye-sub. Will try the settings you passed along. Do you generally do any
tweaking of the image, especially the colors?
Paul
Nick,
It's good to meet another Phoenix 3DS user. I've been using 3DS for a few
months now and just finished my first animation. I work for an architectural
firm in Scottsdale. How long have you been using 3D Studio? I'd also like to
invite you to the first user group meeting for the Phoenix area 3D Studio
users. Presently there is only a handful of users that I've managed to
contact, but I'd like to hear more about the kind of work you've been doing.
We're planning to meet sometime after business hours next week. If you'd like
to drop by, E-Mail me your phone number and fax number.
Keep in Touch,
Darrin Sabin