1.0.4.c3 ATI M64 feedbk
50 messages in this thread
I have been using the Vibrant 1.0.4.c3 drivers with ATI M64 ISA 2M in a
486/33. 3DSr3 load time is 1 min 15 sec. Moving to and from the Material Editor
or View Image takes almost 4 sec. Is this what I should expect with the current
driver? TIA.
JDH
> I have been using the Vibrant 1.0.4.c3 drivers with ATI M64 ISA 2M in a
>486/33. 3DSr3 load time is 1 min 15 sec. Moving to and from the Material
>Editor or View Image takes almost 4 sec. Is this what I should expect with the
>current driver? TIA.
Hmm.. Double check the version on loadup by running 'vibcfg'. I know we tested
the fix for PCI, but I don't know the effects on ISA. I'll send this off to
our draw-code guy.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Thank you for the quick response.
>> Double check the version on loadup by running 'vibcfg'.
Checked: 1.0.4.c3.
>>… I don't know the effects on ISA. I'll send this off to our draw-code
>> guy.
Thank you. It would be great if these times could be shortened.
I have an additional question that concerns viewing .flc files in 3DSr3. If I
view a 256 x 243 .flc the playback is at 320 x 200 cutting off 43 lines. If I
view a 512 x 486 .flc the playback is at 640 x 480, cutting of 6 lines.
Shouldn't playback be at the next higher display rez to enable viewing the full
flc?
Thanks for your time.
JDH
>I have an additional question that concerns viewing .flc files in 3DSr3. If I
>view a 256 x 243 .flc the playback is at 320 x 200 cutting off 43 lines. If I
>view a 512 x 486 .flc the playback is at 640 x 480, cutting of 6 lines.
>Shouldn't playback be at the next higher display rez to enable viewing the
>full >flc?
Hmm. Should be, but that decision is made by the FLIC support code within 3D
Studio. The best thing for you to do would be to configure VIBRANT's Flic list
to only include the higher resolution which will force the flic to be centered
and played at that resolution.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Chuck,
>> The best thing for you to do would be to configure VIBRANT's Flic list
>> to only include the higher resolution which will force the flic to be
>> centered and played at that resolution.
Good idea, that does the trick. Thanks!
JDH
I also own the ATI Mach 64 with 4 MB, the VESA LB version. I am running on a
TriStar DX2-66. I am having the delay getting into 3DS 3 and the delay to the
materials editor that everyone else is experience. In addition I am also
having the Windows lock up problem. One other thing that I notice when I go
into 3DS is that while the program is initially loading, after a few seconds,
the top portion of the screen about a quarter of the screen will scramble for a
few seconds, while the bottom portion remains stable. Then the whole screen
will stabilize and 3D Studio will begin. Also when I initially did my 3DS
VIBCFG, I tried to have 1280 x 1024 with 16 million colors on my rendering
screen, but I got "Error 1933:BIOS does not support this mode" followed by the
statemet that my board may not have enough memory. It has 4MB, and will
configure to 1280 X 1024 with 65,000 colors which also has a 4MB requirement.
What is the problem?
>VIBCFG, I tried to have 1280 x 1024 with 16 million colors on my rendering
>screen, but I got "Error 1933:BIOS does not support this mode" followed by
>the statemet that my board may not have enough memory. It has 4MB, and will
>configure to 1280 X 1024 with 65,000 colors which also has a 4MB requirement.
>What is the problem?
Have you run the ATI configuration program to ensure this mode is setup?
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
>> Have you run the ATI configuration program to ensure this mode is
>> setup?
I have the same problem and it's pretty obvious I have run the setup. If he or
I hadn't run the setup, we couldn't be using 1280x1024x24 in Windows, which,
by the way, works just fine, provided I haven't run 3D Studio.
> >> Have you run the ATI configuration program to ensure this mode is > >>
setup? > >I have the same problem and it's pretty obvious I have run the setup.
If he or >I hadn't run the setup, we couldn't be using 1280x1024x24 in Windows,
which, >by the way, works just fine, provided I haven't run 3D Studio.
Understood.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
I did run the ATI set-up when I first installed the board a month or so ago,
and this size and pallet is supported. I rechecked it when I noticed the error
in loading the Vibrant driver. And it still tells me I have this available to
me.
Chuck,
I posted several messages about trying to get an ATI Mach 64 w/4mb to work on
an Intel pentium 90. This message is one of the latest. I haven't gotten a
lot of response on this problem. Maybe I haven't been checking the forum often
enough. Since this message I have tried another Mach 64 w/4mb on the Intel
board. I have also tried one of the Mach 64s in a Compaq 566 XL system.
Neither of these trials worked. I also tried the (Vibrant) SoftEngine F/X ADI
drivers that ship with the Mach64. I set up vibcfg to use ADI drivers and set
the correct rcpadi environment variables. This gave me the error: Display
video hardware did not initialize
I am running out of ideas and options. Can you help!
<I was wondering what motherboard your using with the ATI card. I have <been
trying to get a 4Mb Mach 64 card to work with an Intel P90 <w/64Mb. It works
fine in Windoz but I get get a page fault when I try <to run 3DS3. The ATI
works fine if I remove the 2Mb upgrade, but 2Mb <won't do with a 21" monitor.
I have updated 3ds to the latest (1.0.4) <inline drivers, tried different ram,
updated the flash bios on the <motherboard and reinstalling 3DS. I am about
out of ideas. I may <have to go back to a Matrox card.
thanks
SSH -Graphic Realities-
>I posted several messages about trying to get an ATI Mach 64 w/4mb to work on
>an Intel pentium 90. This message is one of the latest. I haven't gotten a
>lot of response on this problem. Maybe I haven't been checking the forum
>often enough. Since this message I have tried another Mach 64 w/4mb on the
>Intel board. I have also tried one of the Mach 64s in a Compaq 566 XL system.
>Neither of these trials worked. I also tried the (Vibrant) SoftEngine F/X ADI
>drivers that ship with the Mach64. I set up vibcfg to use ADI drivers and set
>the correct rcpadi environment variables. This gave me the error: Display
>video hardware did not initialize
This is a problem that should be address in 1.0.5, soon to be released. It
should have been correct in 1.0.4.c3 as well. There was a problem with
detection of PCI boards on Intel motherboards… Give 1.0.5 a try when it comes
out.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Chuck;
I recently got the ATI Graphics pro turbo w/ 4 Mb (pci bus on a P90 w/ 64Mb
ram) and am having the same delay of getting into 3DS3 as well. About one
minute to get into 3DS and about 2 Sec. to go back and forth to the Mat Editor.
I am also using the latest versions of you drivers downloaded from here
1.0.4.c3.
I did download this TSR that someone put on the forum called Antive.zip
(AnitVESA) which stops all vesa calls from the ATI board, and this got the load
time into 3DS down to 15 Sec. (not bad). But still a delay in switching to the
material editor and back. The major problem with this TSR solution is that the
VESA drivers then don't work for Ani Pro.
But the WORST problem I am having with this ATI card is that after using 3DS
you must reboot the system prior to starting windows. It seems that the
Vibrant drivers leave a mess in the memory of the ATI card (It even fails it
won memory test after exiting 3DS). If you know anything about this problem I
would appreciate some feedback. I still have a couple of weeks to return this
card a get a different one, but other then these items it is by far the best
card I have worked with. Faster, cleaner and sharper then the Matrox PCI 2 plus
and the Diamond Stealth 64/4
I am in the *identical* situation to Zac… The 2 second delay in to/from the
mat editor is tolerable, but the inability to run windows w/o powercycling is a
real problem.
Hope the Vibrant folks can get this situation improved!
—- Brian
> But the WORST problem I am having with this ATI card is that after using 3DS
>you must reboot the system prior to starting windows. It seems that the
>Vibrant drivers leave a mess in the memory of the ATI card (It even fails it
>won memory test after exiting 3DS). If you know anything about this problem I
We have had some reports of problems like this, but we have not been able to
duplicate them. I'll send your message along to our draw-code person here.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
I also have that problem, plus starting studio takes a minute or two. Plus
after rendering, the view are different.
Richard Williams
>I also have that problem, plus starting studio takes a minute or two. Plus
I am not sure there is much we can do about this. Does switching modes take
1-2 seconds or a lot more?
>after rendering, the view are different.
How do you mean 'different'?
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Chuck;
I appreciate all you can do in regards to the problems getting into windows
after using 3DS with the ATI mach 64 and also regarding the slow entry into
3DS.
As far as not being able to reproduce this effect, I find that hard to
believe. I know of 4 people personally that are having the exact same
situation and if you keep your ears tapped to this forum there must be at least
a dozen of people with the same situation. As a matter of fact I don't know of
anyone with the Mach 64 card that is not having this trouble.
I would appreciate all you could find out from you tech guys, I do know that
they are aware of the problems, but do not know how fare along the fix is, if
at all. Any news you can get us would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for all your help
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
>> As a matter of fact I don't know of anyone with the Mach 64 card that
>> is not having this trouble.
I am using the ISA version of the card. I do have all the speed problems
relating to entering the program & entering Matl Ed. However, I do *not* have
the problems with Windows.
JDH
Jeff;
I should have made myself clear, ALL PCI versions of the ATI mach 64 are
having problems getting into windows. Glad to hear that you do not have this
problem.
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
Zac,
>> Glad to hear that you do not have this problem.
The thought keeps me happy during the 1'15" it takes for 3DS to load.<g>
JDH
Jeff;
I assume you mean 1 Min. 15 Sec to load 3DS. It takes me the same amount of
time without the ANTIVESA.EXE TSR some wonderful chap put up here on this
forum. It stops all VESA calls from the Vibrant driver and solves the slow
load problem of 3DS. Search for ANTIVE.ZIP. It should help you out.
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
Zac,
>> Search for ANTIVE.ZIP.
Thanks, I'll look for it.
JDH
Zac:
>> It takes me the same amount of time without the ANTIVESA.EXE TSR some
>> wonderful chap put up here on this forum.
That was no wonderful chap, that was Gus Grubba! Watch it, saying stuff like
that has been known to go to his head…
Greg Pyros
>I assume you mean 1 Min. 15 Sec to load 3DS. It takes me the same amount of
>time without the ANTIVESA.EXE TSR some wonderful chap put up here on this
>forum. It stops all VESA calls from the Vibrant driver and solves the slow
>load problem of 3DS. Search for ANTIVE.ZIP. It should help you out.
Just a clairifaction: Vibrant isn't making any VESA calls in the Mach64
driver. We are jumping to an ATI BIOS call via their specification. The ATI
BIOS is calling itself with VESA calls…
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Chuck;
>>Just a clairifaction: Vibrant isn't making any VESA calls in the Mach64
driver. We are jumping to an ATI BIOS call via their specification. The ATI
BIOS is calling itself with VESA calls…<<
Maybe you should chat with Gus Grubba. He is the one on the ASOFT forum that
wrote the ANTIVESA.EXE utility which helps get the load time down from 1:15 to
just under 15 sec.
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
Zac,
I have 1.0.4.C3 and have noticed the problem about getting into Windows after
running 3DS. However, I cannot reproduce it intentionally, and it may be
similar for Chuck's group to reproduce.
Thanks for reporting this, by the way.
Nik;
I wish my problem was only intermittent, I can never get into windows after
using 3DS without rebooting. I also know a lot of people with this same
situation when using the PCI card. However, I now have heard of some people
with the ISA version not having such problems.
Hope it gets fixed soon.
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
I've already said that, in fact I was the first one to bring this up. I already
tried all the usual stuff. Got rid of all non essentials with no luck. Windows
will consistently lock up after booting 3DS. If I change to standard VGA
(either 3DS or Windows) it works fine. It's definitely something left over by
the Vibrant driver.
Gus;
I whole heartedly agree that Vibrant drivers are leaving something in the
memory of the ATI card, and the only way to rid it is to re-boot. It even does
has the same problem with the vibrant Acad drivers.
Pretty weird and irritating.
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
> I appreciate all you can do in regards to the problems getting into windows
>after using 3DS with the ATI mach 64 and also regarding the slow entry into
>3DS. > > As far as not being able to reproduce this effect, I find that hard
to >believe. I know of 4 people personally that are having the exact same
>situation and if you keep your ears tapped to this forum there must be at
>least a dozen of people with the same situation. As a matter of fact I don't
>know of anyone with the Mach 64 card that is not having this trouble. > > I
would appreciate all you could find out from you tech guys, I do know that
>they are aware of the problems, but do not know how fare along the fix is, if
>at all. Any news you can get us would be greatly appreciated
I will let them know that the Windows problem is wide-spread, although I
haven't heard talk of it around here. The 'delay' problems have been
alleviated to the best of our ability with 1.0.4.C3. If there are only
solutions, ATI has yet to inform us, so we'll keep on it.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Chuck,
What ever you can do to help the ATI situation is greatly appreciated.
I have done some more research into the number of people actually having
problems and it does seem to be pretty wide spread. Although it does seem to
be worse with the PCI cards.
Thanks for all your help.
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
> I have done some more research into the number of people actually having
>problems and it does seem to be pretty wide spread. Although it does seem to
>be worse with the PCI cards.
We currently believe it to be related to the PCI's location of the video
address space. If so, then the problem should only be exhibited on PCI
machines.
Does anyone have a VLB or ISA which has a problem with going into Windows after
running 3D Studio with the Mach64 VIBRANT driver?
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
The problems that I noted with the ATI Graphics Ultra Pro Turbo (Mach 64) is a
VLB card. I have a TriStar computer 486-66DX2, 64MB memory, and the Mach 64 has
and has been configured for 4MB. I have the same problem of going into windows
after 3ds. I also have the long delay entering 3ds3. My delay btwn the other
modules and materials editor has been reduced with the latest driver. But I am
also experiencing that the top 1/3 of the screen scrambles for a few seconds
just prior to 3ds3 starting. Also even though the card is configured for 16.7
mil. colors at 1280 x 1024, I get an error message in VIBCFG that I get a Error
1933: BIOS does not support this mode.
>The problems that I noted with the ATI Graphics Ultra Pro Turbo (Mach 64) is a
>VLB card. I have a TriStar computer 486-66DX2, 64MB memory, and the Mach 64
>has and has been configured for 4MB. I have the same problem of going into
>windows after 3ds. I also have the long delay entering 3ds3. My delay btwn
>the other modules and materials editor has been reduced with the latest
>driver. But I am also experiencing that the top 1/3 of the screen scrambles
>for a few seconds just prior to 3ds3 starting. Also even though the card is
>configured for 16.7 mil. colors at 1280 x 1024, I get an error message in
>VIBCFG that I get a Error 1933: BIOS does not support this mode.
We are aware of these issues. The Windows problem seems to be related to
4MByte boards. It is possible that your particurlar board doesn't have BIOS
support for the 1280×1024 mode we are looking forward. Please double check
your manual and see if has anything to say about it.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
>> I will let them know that the Windows problem is wide-spread,
>> although I haven't heard talk of it around here.
I posted a note about this problem several weeks ago and never got any answer.
In fact, I have never gotten any answers from you guys. It could be you don't
log in often enough and the messages are lost to the bit bucket (old messages,
which could mean as little as a week, are automatically deleted).
As to the delay, why don't you disable VESA on the way in and re-enable on the
way out?
>As to the delay, why don't you disable VESA on the way in and re-enable on the
>way out?
I assume you mean hook VESA then unhook it, ignoring all calls in between. This
sounds like it would circumvent the ATI BIOS's operation which could
potentially destablize the product. We will contact ATI and see if they have
any more ideas, but at this point, we don't expect to be able to do much about
the startup.
I'll will post any change of status to this forum.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
>> I assume you mean hook VESA then unhook it, ignoring all calls in
>> between. This sounds like it would circumvent the ATI BIOS's operation
>> which could potentially destablize the product.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I too think this is a hack but I've been
using it as such for weeks with no problem. I rarely wait for the manufacturer
to fix my problems. The little silly ANTIVESA tsr I uploaded does exactly that.
I simply hook int 10h and disregard all VESA (4Fh) calls. This will obviously
kill all VESA support but, in my case, I couldn't care less. I assume some
people have downloaded this and are using it (I got mail from someone in Tokyo
thanking for it). If it had been a problem (destablizing) I would for sure
have heard something.
Once I got your attention, did you see a message a couple of days ago
suggesting a couple of new features for the drivers? Particularly being able
to switch modes on the fly (specially color depth) and an added ability to
coexist with Windows (through the API I sent you several months ago). It was
general consensus that such "enhanced" driver could be "sold" as opposed to
the freebie, as it added value. Heck, if you do that and bundle with LS I
would even get a copy (with dongle and all)!
>Once I got your attention, did you see a message a couple of days ago
>suggesting a couple of new features for the drivers? Particularly being able
>to switch modes on the fly (specially color depth) and an added ability to
>coexist with Windows (through the API I sent you several months ago). It was
>general consensus that such "enhanced" driver could be "sold" as opposed to
>the freebie, as it added value. Heck, if you do that and bundle with LS I
>would even get a copy (with dongle and all)!
I will forward these ideas along… I don't remember anything particurlar
about on the fly color depth/resolution changes… Can you please send me a
description of this in more detail. Thanks.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
Well, it has become a major issue that several new IPAS programs will only give
all the can while in true color mode. Though some can run over the materials
editor, others, like Xaos' Pennelo will only work from the Video Post. So far,
all the 8 bit IPAS have no problems running in 24 bit mode other than being a
little slower on some computers (I see very little or no difference in mine).
All of the Yost's IPAS (that I've used) are perfectly able to do real time
rendering while in 24 bits mode just as well as while in 8 bit mode. According
to your previous comments, the new, upcoming real time rendering for Release 4
will only work in 8 bits modes (it beats me why that's the case as I can't see
any technical reason for that). At any rate, instead of having to boot 3DS in a
different mode for each tool I will be using, the video driver should allow the
user to switch modes on the fly. Say, going back and forth from 8 bit to 24
bit, or even switching resolutions all together. Just like the new batch of
Windows drivers (such as the ATI, Matrox, Diamond, etc.)
As I said, this could be put together as a Value Added Driver and it could be
sold along with your Liquid Speed. I, among others, would be more than happy to
pay for it. If something like this doesn't get implemented, it will be a
nightmare a couple of weeks from now when Release 4 ships and all these new
IPAS start showing up (Mirage, Xaos, KPT, etc.). It's your call…
Hi Chuck,
Gus makes excellent points about the changes we will be seeing in the way we
use 3DS in the very near future.
I only want to add that, although 8-bit real-time rendering IPAS routines (like
the Yost stuff, for instance) seem to work OK while the UI is in 24-bit mode, I
have noticed a significant slow-down in display performance with them as
compared to when the UI is in 8-bit mode. FYI, this is on a P60 with a Viper
9100/SE. Maybe other folks could comment about speed differences (if any) using
other video boards.
This makes the ability to change back to 8-bit mode on the fly all the more
attractive.
I hope it is implemented.
-Alan
Gus,
Your Antivesa TSR has worked flawlessly for my PCI ATI w/4mb about 2–weeks
now. It gets me into 3DS in about 15 seconds vs. 50 seconds
when your TSR is not run. Also, I haven't experienced any destabilization as
The Vibrant people claim might happen. Thanks, for posting the
TSR, I really appreciate it.
DK
>Your Antivesa TSR has worked flawlessly for my PCI ATI w/4mb about 2–weeks
>now. It gets me into 3DS in about 15 seconds vs. 50 seconds >when your TSR is
not run. Also, I haven't experienced any destabilization as >The Vibrant
people claim might happen. Thanks, for posting the >TSR, I really appreciate
it.
ATI's specification requires the BIOS query step… until such time as ATI
tells this is no longer required, we need to keep this in place. There is no
other mechanism for us to determine if any given Mach64 implements the mode.
If there is a speed fix for this startup problem, ATI has yet to provide us
with such information.
Sorry, but that is our current position.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
PS: Can you tell me why you need to leave 3D Studio often? Note I am
not questioning that 50 seconds is way to long, but I was wondering
why you needed to rerun it a lot.
>> PS: Can you tell me why you need to leave 3D Studio often? Note I am
>> not questioning that 50 seconds is way to long, but I was wondering why
>> you needed to rerun it a lot.
Because I keep having to boot different modes, because I am developing
software and I boot 3D Studio hundreds of times, because I want to. Regardless
my reasons, it should not make any difference.
>Because I keep having to boot different modes, because I am developing
>software and I boot 3D Studio hundreds of times, because I want to. Regardless
>my reasons, it should not make any difference
I understand. As stated before, I understand this is a long time, but there is
not much we can do about it currently. We fixed the switch time as soon as we
got information on how to make a difference. The same will happen if we ever
get any information from ATI about the startup delays. They pay us to support
thier cards in the manner THEY see fit, so we are going to follow their spec
until they tell us to do otherwise.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics
I would like to add my vote for a 3DS "on the fly" res/color changing
utility. With more and more developers coming out with routines that all but
require 24 bit GUI and others that all but require 8 bit, a dislplay changing
utility could be a very useful and timesaving utility. Please give this idea
some serious consideration. Thanks.
David
Chuck;
We often need to step in and out of 3DS and Windows in order to create
material maps in windows, then use them in 3DS. That is also why the crash
when going into windows after 3DS is such a drag!
Zac (AZ-TECH)
Berkeley
I've had the 'windows lock-up' problem also. I am contsantly switching between
3DS and Photoshop for fine tuning and find it annoying (understatement) to have
to reboot.
Zac,
Are you working on Pentium-based machines? Are they well-equiped with RAM?
If so, you might try (as a work-around) running 3DS in a DOS-box Windows
session (instructions for this are included with r3). I have had excellent
results (on Pentiums) running under Windows, and perhaps this could help you
with your current (video driver) problems.
-Alan
>Chuck; > We often need to step in and out of 3DS and Windows in order to
create >material maps in windows, then use them in 3DS. That is also why the
crash >when going into windows after 3DS is such a drag!
Understood. We are working on resolving the Windows problem.
Chuck Walbourn – Vibrant Graphics