#PAR freaking out
20 messages in this thread
I've been working on an animation that is over 1500 frames, laying off directly
to the PAR, without any problem, until now. I put a good portion of the
animation on the par (756 frames), played that section and saw something that
needed to be corrected. I went back into 3DS and corrected the problem, and
started rendering again. A day later I stopped the rendering and went into PAR
to see how it looked. It looked fine, so I decided to go ahead and insert it
over the first. I split the first where the correction needed to be placed,
then joined the corrected portion to the first. When I played the animation I
got some weird flickering for a couple of frames on about the 68th frame and on
or about the 320th frame. The best way I can describe this flickering is it
looks like a green waffle, and it flickers for about 3 out of 10 frames. When
I step through the animation manually, the problem does not exist. Yes, I am
using QEMM, and I got an "Exception #13" with an "at" code that changes every
time I try the PAR and exit. I went through the trouble-shooting routine for
QEMM to no avail, but I honestly don't think it is a problem with QEMM because
I have a few other animations that are not having this problem, and this same
animation had no problem until I split and joined. I have split and joined
other animations without a problem. Please don't suggest I re-render the
sections that are giving me problems because this is only a band-aid, and I
really don't want to run into this problem again. Sorry this was so long but I
wanted to cover as much as possible from the start. Thanks for any suggestions.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
– 72650,3677 @ 22-Sep-1994, 19:53:43
James, I fixed this problem once by backing up my PAR drive, reformatting it,
and copying *just* the animation in question to it. Evidently, the animation,
somehow, is either not contiguous on your PAR drive, or the drive is just not
moving data fast enough to keep up with the BLF assigned to your animation.
This will put the .ANI on the highest performing area of your drive.
If this doesn't do it for you, just re-copy the frames to a newly formatted PAR
disk with gradually lower BLF settings until it plays back properly.
Hope this helps,
-Alan
"James, I fixed this problem once by backing up my PAR drive, reformatting it,
and copying *just* the animation in question to it."
Thanks Alan. Unfortunately I have already made a few animations and placed
them on the PAR drive, and I have no other drive with as much space to place
these files on in order to reformat the PAR. Does this mean I am going to lose
days time of rendering just so I can reformat my drive? Is there another
method? I am not knocking the PAR, since the problem may have originated due
to my own negligence, but this is a great inconvenience and may inhibit my
ability to appear professional to a client if this happens again while under
the gun. Thanks for your input.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
– 72650,3677 @ 23-Sep-1994, 12:10:32
See the message I posted on PAR BLOCK LIMITS. The problem appears to be that
you have too much data on your drive. The best answer for you currently is to
back up the data and restore just that animation, or to back up the largest
animation, delete it, and optimize the drive. This will force the animations to
move to a better area of the disk.
Brick, thanks for the reply.
"The best answer for you currently is to back up the data and restore just
that animation, or to back up the largest animation, delete it, and optimize
the drive".
On this note, I purchased the Micropolis 2217A and with it came a floppy Disk
Manager from Ontrack. On the cover it says "Manufactured for Micropolis." It
has a couple of functions, one is Disk Manager, and the other is Rocket. I
tried to load these on, but it gave me an error that it cannot find the
Micropolis HD. I called Micropolis help but they weren't exactly sure what I
was talking about (they didn't know of any disk that was shipped with the
drives), and they suggested I buy the disk manager to clear up the problem
(does this sound typical?). Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else has run
into this situation, and what did you do? Thanks.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
– 72650,3677 @ 24-Sep-1994, 12:23:17
>>> On this note, I purchased the Micropolis 2217A and with it came a floppy
Disk Manager from Ontrack. On the cover it says "Manufactured for Micropolis."
It has a couple of functions, one is Disk Manager, and the other is Rocket. I
tried to load these on, but it gave me an error that it cannot find the
Micropolis HD.<<<
The Rocket program probably looks for an IDE DOS drive, when the drive is
hooked up to the PAR it isn't a DOS drive.
>> The Rocket program probably looks for an IDE DOS drive, when the drive is
hooked up to the PAR it isn't a DOS drive. <<
Umm, okay.. so does this mean it is out of the question? What's my solution?
Do I need to go into the computer and physically unhook the drive from the PAR
board? Thanks for any help, I realize you are not a Ontrack representative,
but they didn't offer much help.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
72650,3677 @ 27-Sep-1994, 11:05:54
I guess what it really comes down to, James, is this: If you are looking to get
maximum image quality from your PAR system at all times, then using the PAR
drive for animation "storage" is pretty much out of the question. As the drive
fills, you will definitely start to see a degradation of quality, due to the
HD's decreasing efficiency reading from inner tracks.
This is only an inconvenience if we assume the PAR drive is a viable place to
store multiple animations for future use while still maintaining optimum
throughput/image quality for subsequent animations, which it's just not.
So, like many operations in the 3D animation business, it's probably a good
idea to plan our projects around the limitations of the HW involved with the
project. Here's some of the things I consider:
1) If image quality is an issue for the animation (and it probably usually will
be) always start with a relatively fresh PAR drive. If I cannot get an
animation compiled with a BL of at least 250 (depending on the characteristics
of the animation itself), I'll delete stuff from the PAR drive until am assured
that I am getting the best possible quality for the project. You be the judge
of the level of image quality your project demands.
2) Always keep in mind that, in order for the PAR to work properly, all frames
(in an animation) have to be contiguous, and be in an area of the disk that
supports the BL used to compile that particular animation. If the data gets
moved around (say, through copying, splitting, joining, restoring, etc.) to an
area that doesn't support it, you can have problems.
3) NEVER erase .TGA frames from your system (at least back 'em up!) until the
animation is safely on video tape, and the client has signed off on the project
(read: you've gotten your check!<g>). Consider adding HD space (it's gettin'
really cheap these days) to your PAR system to safely store .ANI files while
you are keeping your current PAR work at highest quality levels.
As far as appearing professional to your clients goes, you don't need me to
tell you that a thorough understanding of your tools is essential to
"delivering the goods", and this forum is a great way for all of us to extend
our knowledge. That being said, I always try to minimize potential problems by
only promising what I'm *absolutely sure* I can deliver, and try to *never*
rely on specualtion or an assumption. In other words, no matter what I read or
am told, until I see something actually work, know how it works, and pretty
much make it work myself, I will not promise a client that something is a
reality. This may seem a little restrictive, but I cannot tell you the amount
of times this atitude has saved my butt. It usually only means a little extra
time to get familiar with a new piece of equipment or operation before offering
the service to a client. And this, I feel, is a good part of what the client is
paying for when he hires an expert or consultant.
I hope this is taken in the proper context! I do not wish to sound "preachy",
but you brought up a good point, and I just wanted to let folks know what works
for me…. Thanks.
Best of luck,
-Alan
Alan Hi. Thanks for your reply..
"Consider adding HD space (it's gettin' really cheap these days) to your PAR
system to safely store .ANI files while you are keeping your current PAR work
at highest quality levels".
I have a Micropolis 2217A (I believe it is 1.8 GIG or something in this area),
what would you suggest would be the best HD to add.. and external? Something
like Burneoulli <- (pardon the spelling if it is wrong)? This is a new area
for me. Thanks.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
– 72650,3677 @ 24-Sep-1994, 12:28:49
If a removable storage system makes sense for you, the Bernoulli or SyQuest
units are nice. I just use a 1.8 gig Quantum on the PAR system for fast backup
and frame storage.
-Alan
Your advice, as usual is right on target. It deserves to be published in some
publication as tips for the PAR owner. I'll bet Michele has already archived
your comments for a future book. <BG>
Have you tried to play anything from the Quantum? I'm about ready to get my
second drive here too but It will be another Mic (2217A). I need all the
working drive space possible. I'll continue to save important *.ani's to tape
during off hours. If I need them for demo I'v got video tape for that. I
always considered my PAR drive like RAM not storage. With this mindset I
should be in good shape for the Abekas someday. <BG>
Thanks for the kind words, Don. Coming from you, that's a real compliment!
No, I haven't tried to PAR-ize the Quantum. It's SCSI, so I couldn't even
experiment if I wanted to. Sounds like as interesting thing to try, though. I
basically got it to hold frames and backups for/from the PAR drive.
Keeping examples of your work around on video is exactly how I do it, too.
Every time someone needs some SP output and I have a PVW or UVW over here, I
take the opportunity to put whatever animations I might have laying around to
BC-Metal tape for archival purposes. Also, having a running history of
first-generation SVHS dubs of my work is a decent way of demoing it here at my
"studio". And of course all this helps to keep my PAR drive relatively free for
new projects, etc.
If you keep it up with all this interesting (lucrative?) video work you are
talking about, you'll have your Abekas before you know it!<g>
-Alan
OK I misunderstood you on the Quantum drive. I thought you installed it as a
low speed drive right on the PAR as a slave for archival purposes. I also
thought it was an IDE, of course. If you did I had a ton of questions for you.
Do you know anybody that is doing this yet? ie master/slave on the PAR. I
might be the first user to try it.
The video work is going great and the Fast VM is really getting a work- out.
But before I go to an Abekas I want to be fully betacam SP edit and shooting
capable. Then I want the new NLE DPR from Fast. My PAR is just fine for me
right now. As far as quality goes the PAR is at the top of my equipment. Even
the Fast frame buffers are only 640 resolution. Nope! the PAR is going to have
a pretty long life here compared to other computer hardware I think.
Don:
>> Do you know anybody that is doing this yet? ie master/slave on the PAR.
We had two 2217s on the PAR from last Thanksgiving to May of this year, then
took the second drive off for a needy DOS machine. No problems, worked fine.
Of course, PAR.EXE wouldn't support two drives back then, so we had to write
our own app to do that. If you need the capacity, go for it!
Greg Pyros
>>Low-speed PAR drive for archival purposes<<
Hmmm…interesting concept. 2217's are getting so cheap these days that I guess
ya might as well go full speed, no? I haven't compared the prices lately, so
I'm not really sure at this point.
No, I'm not familiar with any user (except Greg) that has used multiple PAR
drives yet. It would be nice to hear how it worked with copying times, etc.
Great to hear your equipment is working so well for you. With faster IDE drives
on the horizon, I guess that it's a possibility that PAR image quality will be
able to improve. I'll be keeping my ear to the ground with DPS…
-Alan
"I just use a 1.8 gig Quantum on the PAR system for fast backup and frame
storage."
Is the Quantum external? Who do I contact on the pricing of the Quantum?
Thanks.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
72650,3677 @ 24-Sep-1994, 19:50:58
I hope you didn't mis-understand me, James. The Quantum is a SCSI drive
installed in the same system as the PAR. I use it to render to, and as
relatively (than to tape or over the network) fast backup for PAR files. It is
available from all the big HD companies.
If you have an IDE-based system already, you might consider taking GregP's
advice and getting a (another?) Mic 2217A that can be used as a regular system
drive, or a PAR drive depending on where you need it most at the time.
-Alan
Is the Quantum just your every-day scsi drive, or is there something unique
about it? I'm just curious, since it seems there was some sudden interest when
the name was brought up.
David
Sorry about the confusion David. The Quantum is just a (quite fast) SCSI system
drive that lives in the PAR box. I mentioned it because it's speed and
proximity to the PAR system make it a good way to back up PAR files, which
keeps the PAR drive relatively clean for higher-quality PAR output.
-Alan
Thanks, that's what I thought. Drive prices are coming down nicley,
I've noticed a couple 1.08 gig drives now available for less than $600. Now if
only the price of RAM would do the same…
David