#what should i buy?
41 messages in this thread
I'm playing to buy an Amiga, to supplement my already in place IBM sysyem.
A few questions for the ones in the know. What would you guys say is the ideal
Amiga system for gaming?(I think either a 2000 or 2500 personally, but I want
your opinions). Also, is the 2500 completely compatible with all Amiga,
programs games and accessories?
Josh
If you want to play games, the A500 is a good choice, but, if you vcan afford
it, go for the best model. The 2500 is switchable at bootup between the 68000
and the 68020 for near 100% compatibility.
–rw
Not only games, but I want the expandability. Do all games work at regular
speed on the 2000?(ie:do any need a 2500 to work at correct speed?)
If so, then I might take the 2000 and get the upgrade board later.
Josh
You might go for either the 2000 or the 2500 and get one of the bridge boards
so you can also use your IBM programs.
Ron
I thought of that, but the IBM will remain in place.
Josh
Understood. For me, desk space/footprint is very limited.
Ron
What setup do you have?
Josh
2000, 2meg board (2052), 2 hd's, 2 3.5 floopy's, Framegrabber, Supra 2400 modem
(but using my company's Microcom 9624c), Okimate 20 printer, 1080 monitor,
Isobar power strip. I will have a 8088 bridgeboard when UPS gets around to
delivering it, already have the Janus 2 software (though I don't have paperwork
for it). The bridge has a 5.25 360k floppy drive included. And I have a few
other odds and ends.
Ron
Joshua,
Properly written programs on the Amiga run exactly the same on any model.
This is because good programmers use system routines, such as timers, when
needed, so as to avoid this type of problem, and more importantly, to keep from
hogging the most valuable system resource there is: CPU cycles.
-larry
Wasn't sure if it was the same in the Amiga world.
Josh
Josh:
Just to expand a bit on what Larry said:
Programs where the timing is important to their proper execution run the same
speed on all Amiga, IF they were written correctly.
OTOH — with an accelerator board like a 2620, with its 68020 cpu, 2 megs of 32
bit wide ram, a memory management unit, and a 6881 match coprocessor -your
system is much, much faster. Word processors and dictionaries work much
faster. Graphics paint or ray tracing programs work much faster, etc.
However, games generally do not (except for scene switches, they are faster
generally) if they are written properly. They are, however, "snappier" in
terms of their response to computation dependent items (how fast a new puzzle
is created in a word game, for example).
Ray Lewis
But, yes your best bet would be to get the 2000, and then upgrade it later if
you like what's going on here in Amiga world.
I keep that in mind. What setup do you have?
I bought a stock Amiga 2000 in November 1987 (an early Christmas present to
me!)
Since then I have added:
two more floppy drives (both 3.5")
a CBM board with 2 megs of 16 bit ram
the CBM 2620 board, which adds a 68020 central processing unit, 2 more
megs of ram (but 32 bits wide), a memory managemenet unit and a math
coprocessor.
a GVP 40 meg hard card
an ASDG dual serial port card to add two more serial ports
two 2400 baud modems
a midi interface (along with a midi keyboard and an 8 voice sound
module)
Plus, lots of software.
I started out wanting the graphics and sound, and ended up falling head of
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heels in love with the Amiga for everything. I'm treasure for a non-profit
music magazine. When I do the mail, I have a database, spreadsheet and
wordprocessing program up, all at the same time, using a simple two-key
combination to switch among them. I have even worked on the mail while WHAP
was downloading messages from CIS. I never have to wait for something to print
before I go on to the next thing, since the printing is set up to take place in
the background.
I'm now looking at how I can use AREXX and scripit to fully integrate these
three programs, so I only have to fill out one customized command screen for
eash letter, and have the computer then enter the appropriate data in the other
programs, eliminating double entry of things like names, check amounts and
specific merchandise wanted (we sell records) by me.
Get Amy for games. She's great at it. But get at least a 2000 for easy
expansion. If you are at all into computers, you will quickly find that Amy
opens all those new worlds NOW that OS/2 with Presentation Manager and the
mythical MAC multitasking OS hope to open for you SOMEDAY.
BTW, be prepared for a little bit of confusion when you first start playing
around with the Amiga OS. In some ways it's like MSDos, and in some ways it's
like the Mac interface, but in a lot of ways, it's its own animal. Once you get
comfortable with it, you'll feel like you are wearing lead boots when you use
anything else with less power than a VAX or a full Sun workstation.
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Ray Lewis
Ray, just a coincidence but I bought my A500 in Nov. '87 as well.
— Ethan
Standard speed is 500/2000. The 500 and 2000 are completely software
compatible. The 500 comes with a base 512K and 1 disk drive. It is easily
expandible to 2 drives and 1 meg. Although further expansion is also possible,
it is not as cheap. You pay somewhat more than on a 2000.
The 2000 is standard with 1 meg and 1 drive. It comes with slots galore.
It also comes with 3 internal bays: 2 3.5" and 1 5.25". The 2000HD is just a
2000 with a 40meg hard drive built in. It is a fast drive. The 500/2000/2000HD
are all 68000s running at 7.14MHz. (The speed is faster than that would imply,
primarily because of 3 coprocessors which take almost all graphical work off
the 68000's hands.)
The 2500 is a 2000HD with a 68020 at 14.28MHz, a 68881 and a 68552(?). It
also has an addition two megabytes of RAM (32 bit) for 3 meg total. For
compatibility with programs which were not written to handle a 68020 (primarily
games), at boot time you can hold down both mouse buttons which brings up a
screen allowing you to select the 68000 or 68020. If you select 68000 you only
have 1 meg of ram available. That isn't a hindrance, really, especially
considering most programs that would require the slow-down are games.
In my opinion, if you want an ideal system without going extravagant (at
least for the average persons needs) the 2000HD is right. One meg, one drive,
68000 and harddrive.
— Ethan
Josh:
If you can afford it, get the 2500. Some games will not work with the 68020
chip running, but you can reboot, and select 68000 mode for those games.
Even though you are buying the Amiga for games (and a 500 would do just fine),
the 2500 is much faster, much more powerful, expandable, will probably be able
to run UNIX (with some add-ons) within the next six months or so, and will let
you get into a whole lot more than just games later on (like creating your own
animations — doing incredible things with sound -doing your own video titling
— getting you a head start on multitasking -giving you a multi-media
workstation NOW that both Mac and IBM hope to emulate "sometime soon").
OTOH — if the price of the 2500 puts you off, get a 500 or 2000. BUT make
sure you have either two floppies (or 1 floppy and an HD) AND at least 1
megabite of ram (standard on 2000, option for an extra $150 or so on the 500).
Ray Lewis
I was planing to do at least some work with Deluxe Paint 3. Also, I realize
about the HD, and the 500 was never a contender.
BTW-anything new with workbench 1.4?
Josh
Files busy, code 5-0 …
have files (11 sec)
To animate with DPaint 3 it really helps to have more than 1 meg and the
new fatter agnus. WorkBench 1.4: no release dates. There is a good deal of
information out about it. The best way to get it all is to buy the August
Amazing Computing which gave an indepth look.
— Ethan
From everything I've seen in your messages so far, I'd say get a 2000 or a
2000HD. Then add ram and other things as you see the need.
Re 1.4, because of your question, I assume you read about the first wave of
information either here or in various Amiga magazines. I haven't seen any
additional info recently. It would be nice if they put out 1.4 and the
enhanced chip set right about now, since they are going to start a major ad
compaign in a week and a half. But, I haven't heard anything specific about
when they will put it out.
Ray Lewis
What I'd really like is if a whole wave of products came out at once.
Namely, 1.4, 68030, Unix, Denise, 2091, the 1008×800 monitor and perhaps the
graphics cards as well.
— Ethan
'Twould be nice, but ONLY if they were all pretty well debugged. The worst
thing CBM could do would be to stir up a LOT of new interest in Amy, and have
the newcomers fighting with a lot of new products in their early stages.
Even the best tested new products have bugs, and new users are generally real
good at finding them, since they do things the "experienced" user wouldn't
think of.
Ray Lewis
Hi Josh,
I hate to disagree with the masses but I recommend staying away from the
2000HD and the 2500 simply due to the low quality hard drive they come with and
the DMA problems associate with the commodore 2090A controller. My personal
recommendation is an A2000 with a GVP or KRONOS(Cltd) hardcard. Get an
accelerator board later if you decide you need more speed. I sell Amigas and
have seen a lot of unhappy customers Due to the 2090/2090A and Hires overscan
graphics problems. (to others out there about to step on me, patch2090 helps,
but is not a cure)
Darrin Raposa
Amicore International.
What type of prices do you get on A2000,s 68020/030 accelerators and hard
cards?
Josh
Joshua, I HAVE the 2500 and I think the hard drive is very high quality.
It has certainly been as fast as I want. The only problem associated with it is
when you have an interlace 16 color (I believe) screen visible hard drive
access slows down to a crawl. There is a patch which alleviates this for the
most part.
The A2000 should sell for around $1,500, the 2000HD around $2,150, the
2500 can be found for $3200. The 68020 accelerator is around the price of an
A2000. There is a GVP hardcard, which is known for high-speed. 40 meg is around
$800, 80 around $1150.
— Ethan
Just a couple of commets:
1. The 2090/2090A are VERY fast controllers. 2. The rodime drives that c= has
been shipping recently with the 2090/2090a is a fine drive.
Quick/quiet/reliable, But MFM format. 3. The main reason I am "down" on the
2090/2090A is their perfomance under high DMA conditions. Most of the Amigas
we sell are used in video. Our 7 A2000s are used mostly for video. The
degredation in performance under 16color hires full overscan conditions (even
with the patch2090 installed) is enough for me not to recommend it to my
customers. 16 color hires overscan is used extensivly in video. The 2090/2090A
DMA problems become quite bothersome especially in the commercial world where
time is money.
Darrin Raposa
Under the conditions you describe I understand completely why you
wouldn't want a 2090(A), but most people don't use 16-color hires/interlace
full overscan very often. Even if people did use that a lot, the problem only
exists if the hard drive is used while the screen is in memory. For people
doing work with that much resolution, sure, dump the 2090. But that doesn't
mean that the average user should avoid it.
— Ethan
Ok, I agree the 2090(a) is fine for the average user, but as the
enhanced chip set provides more video modes (and greater demands on DMA) the
2090(a) controllers' problems will only become more pronounced.
Darrin Raposa
Darrin,
You presume that CBM isn't going to modify the driver (software) to
correct any problems. That's probably a bad assumption.
Don
Darrin,
I think I read a message on Usenet that Commodore has made a change in the 2091
that will eliminate that contention problem. However, I have not seen an
announcement that the 2091 has been released for sale yet.
BTW, please observe our forum policy of using your full name. Go to the Forum!
prompt, type OPT, select NAME, and type both your first and last names. We
will all appreciate it. Thanks.
Betty
Call me, (413) 592-9122 weekdays. We sell mosty integrated Amiga/Video
systems but we do sell computers alone.
Darrin Raposa.
To each his own, Darrin. I LOVE my 2000HD.
Betty
Darren,
In part, I don't think you know what you are talking about! The 2000HD and the
2500 come with ST-506 drives, not SCSI. With the 2090A and ST-506 drives,
there is NO contention problem. From other reports I heard on here, the hard
drive CBM supplies with these machines is of pretty good quality, with pretty
nice specs.
Why don't you check with CBM and ask when they are going to start using the
2091 controller instead of the 2090A? When these machines start to come with
this controller, there will be no contention problems with SCSI drives at all –
and will have a low cost way of adding additional ram to the system at the same
time.
You say the kronos is easy to install – why don't you go and look at the
messages in AmigaVend under the CLtd section. From those messages, setting up
a kronos must be like dealing with a "bastard son". I have a 2090A here, and
a 70Meg miniscribe ST-506 HD. I installed it by myself, had no problems except
for a lack of documentation from Miniscribe. And I never installed a HD
before.
73, Kelly
Kelly,
First of all, I never said anything about what type of drive the 2000HD or
2500 come with. The contention problem is with the controller, not the drive.
The contention problem exists with ANY type of drive used on the 2090/2090A.
Second the Kronos hard card comes fully formatted and ready to auto-boot.
Just plug it in and go. The messages were mainly about upgrading from an older
Cltd controller to the Kronos controller using the same drive.
Just how many 2090/2090A controllers have you dealt with?? You must have a
great deal of experience to say I don't know what I'm talking about. We have
been a well respected commodore dealer and developer since the A1000 first came
out.
Respectfully,
Darrin Raposa
Darrin,
You did mention the drive supplied with the 2000HD and the 2500:
Quote: "… due to the low quality hard drive they come with …"
You say there is a major contention problem with ST-506 drives, too. Then all
I can say is I never noticed it, and the same thing goes for a lot of people on
here.
73, Kelly
(This is routed to you cause I don't have a message from Darrin).
Darrin, maybe you have a bad 2090? It seems that most people here don't
have the same level of problem as you. Some people have said that the problem
varies from controller to controller, so try a new one!
— Ethan
Kelly,
I had one of the old, non-autobooting 2090's . Even with a ST-506 type
drive (Seagate 251) and the newest driver software, I *still* had miserable
times with it once I installed the 1 meg Agnes chip and started using the
Hires/Overscan mode. I have other friends with older 2090's or the newer
2090A's (all with ST-506 drives), and some of them have problems – but not all.
It isn't predictable, for some reason.
Go figure.
Lloyd
Lloyd, like you say, go figure!
I assume you do have expansion ram, too. You aren't mistakingly using chip ram
for your buffers, are you?
73, Kelly
Kelly,
Expansion ram, yes. Buffers were in expansion ram.
*My* setup was somewhat unique in that because I had a Ronin 68020
board, I had to disable DMA with the FFS – which made my times much slower than
before I added the Ronin. But the overscan situation didn't seem to become a
problem (for me) until *after* I added the 1 Meg Agnes chip. Then I *DID*
notice the problem with Deluxe Paint III in hires/overscan. It took *minutes*
to get a disk directory! New, non-DMA controller solved both problems for *me*.
And like I've said, I've run into people with 2090's, or 2090A's, and
ST-506 type drives ("stock" 2000's). Some have a problem with hires/overscan
screens, others don't – with a similar configuration. Strange.
Lloyd
Joshua,
If you only want to play games, I would suggest the AMiga 500. It is
compatible with all other Amiga things, but is harder to expand for the power
user. If you want to buy coprocessor cards, video cards, etc., then the 2000
would be better because of the internal slots. If you want to use the 68020 or
68030 cards with 32-bit memory, or you want Unix on your Amiga, then go for the
2500. Frankly, while the 2500 would play the games quite nicely, it would be a
terrible waste (in my opinion).
Betty