#SECOND CITY
17 messages in this thread
Sanford,
On December 9, you sent me the following message:
Kevin,
I propose, then a Second bigger city open to the masses, and a small
very well done one that sits in the Asoft forum for us 3D Studio users.
Aren't there over 30,000 registered users?
Is that a big enough number.
If only 10 percent contributed, it would shut the whole system down!
Bugman
On that same day, you sent a message to David Gould:
David,
Oh, my own Internet site?
Well, Greg Pyros just did that.
He is now a hub of netty information.
He has a wide stance in the Cyberworld.
I'd like to do it too, but it is not $$$$$$ feasable right now.
Sanford
What would it take to make it feasible Dude-among-us?
I want to make it happen.
I'm getting real upset with the hospitality around here.
I want to give you a New Year's present.
Kevin -= Up in Arms =-
>> I'm getting real upset with the hospitality around here.
But why?!? The only lack of hospitality that I've seen has been a request to
keep threads focused, and to keep the stream of consciousness in the Take 5
section when possible. Granted, a couple of individuals have taken personal
offense at your opinions, but that can be expected to happen among so many
people.
The problem as I see it, is that people are spending a lot of money on CIS, to
further their abilities or to simply solve problems. Wading through screen
after screen of unrelated thoughts can make it easy to miss the relevant info
in a thread, not to mention making it more costly to get the information we
need. By trying to keep threads focused on the facts, and keeping the
wandering thoughts in Take 5, we can really keep the forum as useful as
possible.
Your words in the forum are entertaining and enlightening, but please offer a
little courtesy and place them in the Take 5 area when possible. I, and most
others here, will still see them. Others looking for specific answers can then
get to what they need more quickly.
Regarding the StudioCity project, everybody lighten up a little. It's supposed
to be fun! I thank those who have put a huge effort into making it work. Since
I haven't had time to participate in building the foundation, I will just live
with whatever guidelines are imposed, no matter how strict. I simply look
forward to contributing something, regardless of how restrictive, to a strong
group project. Let's get this thing started – in ANY WORKABLE FORM – and keep
the excitement going. It will eventually mutate into something larger and less
restrictive, but we must start somewhere!
– Dave (relaxed – why isn't everyone else?!?)
Hi – Dave,
Very good, sir!!! Very well put indeed! I agree with most of your observations
re the state of individual restraint and aggression in the SC2K forum. I
stumbled into this section purely by accident. When did all this horizontal
shifting take place? While its true that a couple of people exhibited a little
irritation at the lack of focus in some messages, I don't see why anyone needed
to be shifted from the section that generated the discussions to this strange
beast of bits and pieces and marked down merchandise.
dm to gy on Forum Courtesy
<<Thanks, Gary. The SC2000 project is the strongest group effort I've seen in
my nearly 2 years on the forum. It may very well become a collective
illustration of all the talent that frequents ASOFT. I'm sure that your thread
cleaning will help the focus return to the exciting project at hand.>>
If you've been reading most of what's been posted there, and I'm sure you have,
you know that while there may be hundreds or even thousands of readers lurking
around waiting for an animated 3D city to magically appear, there is not a huge
number of message writers. According to Joe, the Wiz of Sysopothy, the volume
of messages is quite high. And although every message may not address a topic
exclusive to the development of SC2K, the vast majority of messages are
directly related to the evolving concept of SC2K. To disrupt the collective
stream of consciousness at this point might not have been a good idea.
I frequent the SC2K section to see what new concepts are being explored, and to
read some very interesting and often informative embellishments which are just
good clean fun regardless of their connection to charters, zones, restrictions,
or any specific architectural discipline. I hope this message segregation
policy doesn't render the SC2K area sterile, boring, and impotent. I want to
see the project on tape or CD, and up to now, it seemed that everything was
moving along at a fairly reasonable clip considering the scope.
If you go back and strip out all the messages that don't stricty adhere to the
SC2K project topics and address matters critical to its form, function, and
management, the sysops of this section wouldn't be scraping teeth, hair, and
bits of flesh off the glass ceiling and scrambling around for a bigger
warehouse. If I'm not mistaken, there were less than 20 respondents to Survey
#1, and as of the last message I read regarding administartive positions, only
three people had volunteered themselves or nominated anybody to serve in any
official capacity. Somehow I don't see how "thread cleaning" will enhance the
return of focus to SC2K.
We're not here to get answers or offer solutions to technical questions or
problems encountered while using an exotic piece of software. Not once have I
seen a message instructing a questioner to RTFM, or see pp. 108-119 of the
Advanced User's Guide. Most, if not all of us are capable mesh builders who are
germinating some unconventional ideas for models to be displayed in the new
burg, so the usual give and take found in other sections will most likely never
dominate the SC2K section. As I see it the focus never dulled, it got intense.
And while the zones and restrictions and charters are getting codified, the
multinational, multicultural, multi-disciplined neighborhood was quite busy
getting acquainted, offering the city some soul. I hope it continues in this
section as well.
I also agree completely with my quite disturbed li'l pal, JKJ, who wrote this
in a message to Jonas,
<<Personally, I would rather skim pages of flaming hogwash and catch a few
<<creative associations than separate things and lose all chance.>>
Once again JKJ has expressed a concept I can agree with. Segregation is BAD!
<<Regarding the StudioCity project, everybody lighten up a little. It's
supposed to <<be fun! I thank those who have put a huge effort into making it
work. Since I <<haven't had time to participate in building the foundation, I
will just live with <<whatever guidelines are imposed, no matter how strict. I
simply look forward to <<contributing something, regardless of how restrictive,
to a strong group project. <<Let's get this thing started – in ANY WORKABLE
FORM – and keep the <<excitement going. It will eventually mutate into
something larger and less <<restrictive, but we must start somewhere!
<<- Dave (relaxed – why isn't everyone else?!?)>> HERE, HERE!! (or should it
be HEAR, HEAR!!)
I agree 100%, and have nothing more to add …B.
PS – How's the young 'un?
Bruce,
PMJI,
>> Somehow I don't see how "thread cleaning" will enhance the return of focus
to SC2K. <<
Bruce I'm going to have to jump in here to help you understand what a lot of
people I've talked to have commented on privatly and which was my own personal
reason for not getting involved in this project.
There was one particular individual that I don't care to to work with on this
project simply because he's more intent on his own affairs, beliefs, and agenda
despite what he says about being a team player yadda, yadda, yadda, he has
shown himself to be extreemly nonfocused and I doubt that anything he is
involved in would ever be seen through to successfull completion.
Please, I don't want anyone to come back to me on this because I specifically
don't want to get in to it with anybody.
I'm just saying that I would have loved to get involved with this as a
"Serious" Project ( this is not to say I'm against it being a"Fun Project" ) I
beleive many others also beleive this, but as long as the "Ramblings" continue
I can't beleive much will ever come of it.
No Reply is Needed..nor will I respond to one….
I'm just saying out load what some of us have voiced in private.
Murph'
<<No Reply is Needed..nor will I respond to one….I'm just saying out load
what some of us have voiced in private.>>
Thank you for your personal feelings James. I know it is hard to express
yourself without getting a firm rebutal or flame. Continue in your endeavours
and express yourself any which way you want. That is what freedom is all
about.
This is a note to everyone: We don't always have to jump on someone else if
they don't believe what we do. Everyone is entitled to there opinion, but I
sometimes see people *forcing* there beliefs onto someone else rather than
*offering* it. With the great number of different people present on this forum
I understand there is going to be conflict, but just remember that we don't
always have to push our beliefs in front of others, even if we think they are
wrong.
David "Appreciating diversity" Gould
Unfortunately,
This ain't the SC2000 forum. It does happen to be the Autodesk Software Forum,
and any decisions concering the maintenance of the message base and/or the
libraries are made with that criteria in mind.
We did establish a separate section for the SC2000 project, and we did
encourage it. But there is no way we are going to jeopardize the integrety of
this forum for the questionable wants and needs of one or two members who don't
wish to keep this in mind. When a member becomes a disruptive force within a
forum, steps need to be taken to separate the forum in general from this
disruptive influence. Disregarding any such disruptive influence will, in the
long run, bode ill on any forum on any information service available. We took
those steps, and they started early on. Our recommendations were ignored,
actually flaunted and thrown back into our faces. So we have taken additional
steps.
If this situation continues we will have only two choices left to maintain some
sort of control over it and keep the forum on track as a support forum. The
first of these is to take actions directly against the disruptive influence and
remove it from the forum. And the second is to cancel the section devoted to
SC2000 and remove our support for the project.
Bearing in mind that CIS forums are not covered by the First, Fourth,
Fourteenth or any other admendment to the Constitution, nor do any
Constitutional Rights apply, no one had the god given right to create havoc in
any forum on any information service. And since this disruptive influence is
affecting the entire forum presently (and we all know of which I speak), which
of these two actions would you like to see us take ???
Joe,
Regarding: <<And since this disruptive influence is affecting the entire forum
presently (and we all know of which I speak), which of these two actions would
you like to see us take ???>>
I have been following all of the various flaming threads that have been spun on
this forum for the past week with a heavy heart. However, many of the other
threads that have developed around these flames and around the basic issues of
SC2000 have made some of the best reading that I have ever found online. Now,
just as the flames are dying down, and the "community" seems to be healing its
wounds, you threaten to take "action"?
IMHO there was no one "disruptive influence", but several people, (all of whom
have made tremendous contributions to the SC2000 project), who hurt each
others feelings and who seem to be working it out.
For many people on this forum, the SC2000 project testifies to the community
spirit of this forum. Please give the community a chance to work.
Most of this forum is devoted to technical issues. People contribute advice,
suggestions and opinions regarding the software they use. SC2000 is exciting
to me, because it is the first time we have had the opportunity to interact, as
a community, on political and creative issues.
Autodesk has a reputation for promoting creativity and excellence in the use of
its products. The SC2000 project and everything that has been said there are
a positive testimony to a company that recognizes the art of its customers as
one of its most important assets.
When we are trying to give shape to a collective work of art, how can one say
which voices are relevant and which are "disruptive"? While some people on
the forum seem most interested in the nuts and bolts of how we are going to put
it together, others of us have been more intrested with what spirit the city
will be built. Discussions on political and aesthetic issues related, even
tangentially, to city building should be encouraged!
Personally, I am insulted by your threats, your apparent glibness about
freedom of speech and the simplistic either/or solution that you propose.
–Donald Newlands –now, where is that Internet city building site?
Donald, Joe was not being insulting to anyone, and I think you owe him an
apology. You must keep in mind that the forums are provided by Autodesk for
support and discussion of our products. We provided space for the SC2000
project to encourage discussion and development of something that was of
interest to the people who use our products and frequent the forum. However,
the forum still belongs to Autodesk, and the guidelines we set must be
followed.
We as SYSOPS of the Forum are looking at things from a slightly different
viewpoint, and that has to do with the mechanics of the forums, specifically,
space. There is actually a limited amount of space available for messages and
library files. When one individual starts to post numerous messages that begin
to drift very far from the reason for the forum's existence, we start to get
concerned that others will not get the help and utility from the forums that
they need. Each message posted takes a slot and bumps off an older message.
Lately the time a message would stay on the forum got very short, and this
significantly decreases the usefulness of the forum to many others here.
Please understand that we are also making an effort to accomodate the needs of
this discussion group and the SC2000 project. For now, please refrain from
personal attacks on my staff. It isn't an easy job to go through 250 messages a
day and move them around from section to section, especially when the messages
are popping up all over the board.
Bob,
Thank you for putting the Sysops' perspective in perspective.
I was unaware of the mechanics of the message base and the issue of fair
access.
I extremely grateful for what the Sysops have thus far to refocus the SC2000
threads.
Thank you for supporting SC2000!
–Donald
Donald
Joe,
I am very sorry if my previous post offended you :(…
I sincerely regret having added the last sentence: <<Personally, I'm
insulted…>> (Where did that come from? <g>) Adding that probably undid all
that I was trying to do in the other seven paragraphs — like pouring fat on
the flames…
All that I really wanted to say is that I hope that "action" won't be
necessary. I think that we as a "community" may have already worked through
the situation.
Thank you for supporting the SC2000 project!
Respectfuly yours,
Donald Newlands
Donald,
So do we hope that action isn't necessary. We've been living with the situation
for a coupla weeks now, and it's getting frustrating. The last few days have
shown some light though, and maybe we've worked through it. Let's hope.
And to further encourage this project, I'm going to request temporary free
flags for two of the promoters, John Sandford and Sandford Kennedy. But the
flags will be for only one month. We should have the new forum set up by then,
and everything moved over.
>> And to further encourage this project, I'm going to request temporary free
flags for two of the promoters, John Sandford and Sandford Kennedy. <<
Paul Sanford and Sanford Kennedy? 🙂 Thanks, Joe.
Paul S.
<<Paul Sanford and Sanford Kennedy?>>
I find that incredible that you guys are related by names. Which came first the
chicken or the egg? Which came first the Sanford christian name or the Sanford
surname?
David "Reversible name" David
Joe,
<< first of these is to take actions directly against the disruptive influence
and remove it from the forum. And the second is to cancel the section devoted
to SC2000 and remove our support for the project. >>
What's the point in punishing the whole SC2K team by removing Autodesk's
support when you can very simply remove the problem maker from the forum? I
would like to thank you for moving all of those messages that had nothing to do
with SC2K or Autodesk's products.
Mark
Well Mark,
I got a lot of trash my way for taking the actions that I did, and some of it
was from a few of the participants in SC2K. So I merely pointed out some of the
other options for handling the problem. It just seemed like the time to whop
them upside the head to get their attention. Guess it worked..<G>.
No one really want's to L flag a forum member, and we certainly don't want to
withdraw support for SC2K. Either action is bad for business. But our main
objective here is the support of the Autodesk Multi-Media products, and we
can't forget that. So anything that interferes with that main goal is subject
to lots of decisions. And what happened to our message base did interfere with
our main goal.
I come in peace, Joe MacRae, and I mean no harm.
Your statement is perfectly clear:
<<This ain't the SC2000 forum. It does happen to be the Autodesk Software
Forum, and any decisions concering the maintenance of the message base and/or
the libraries are made with that criteria in mind.>>
<<And since this disruptive influence is affecting the entire forum presently
(and we all know of which I speak), which of these two actions would you like
to see us take ???>>
That's a rhetorical question. The action has already been taken.
Peace on all of us …B.
>> To disrupt the collective stream of consciousness at this point might
>> not have been a good idea.
I must differ with your opinion here. A group project of ANY nature is a very
delicate balance of artistic desires, strong interest, and a few devoted people
willing to take the lead and do a LOT of the work. I fear that all the
secondary conversations (and arguments) will really detract from the strong
focus the project has had from the get-go. Because I simply don't have the
time to read through the stream of consciousness, I have been hardly looking at
the SC2K section at all. I'm sure others have begun to skip over it too. I
really believe that the correct decision was made in moving some threads to
Take 5.
>> the multinational, multicultural, multi-disciplined neighborhood was
>> quite busy getting acquainted, offering the city some soul. I hope it
>> continues in this section as well.
This is a point that I have obviously not given much consideration to. My
survey answers and my on-going opinion in the forum have been VERY indifferent
to people and the city's social structure. My focus has been the engineering
and the artistic element, since they are fairly easy to control. More
importantly, we need the substance of a 3DS mesh as a beginning to the more
idealistic pursuits that have been discussed. I have a difficult time breaking
my strict technically-oriented tendencies so my goals for this project remain
very technical. I sincerely apologize to those who bring more than mesh and
style to this city.
>> PS – How's the young 'un?
She's happy, healthy and a real blast. Thanks for asking.
– Dave