3000 Shortage?
51 messages in this thread
Your welcome, I saw yours was a response to an earlier message, but just
had to answer right then (I've seen too many MG nightmares in my time).
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
The principle of that policy is a good one BUT suppose someone picks up an
AW mag (or any other Amiga oriented mag) and decides to order from MG.
They won't be aware of that policy and if they need service and can't get
it I bet he/she will let their feeling known to all their friends!
In the least, couldn't the machine be shipped back to CBM for factory
service if the machine was bought at a non-authorized dealer?
later!
A local dealer yesterday told me that several of their 'A3000' ULTRA-LONG
WAIT customers had given up and ordered/received their machines from
Montgomery Grant. The dealer said the the customers were getting the
Commodore 'express' service as part of the deal (from MG)!
Now, this isn't the most professional dealer, so they may be full of crock,
but is it possible that the purchasers from MG cannot get service from
authorized dealers, but can from Commodore (via Express or such)?
Related question: this dealer has one customer still impatiently waiting
for their A3000 power up, THREE MONTHS LATER!!!! Not only that, but their
in-store A3000 has been down with a motherboard problem for 1-2 months at
least as well. The dealer claims that Commodore is unable to provide them
with any sort of product, or to get them a new motherboard right now.
Geeezz…. I don't know if this dealer is 'all there' or not, but they are
an authorized dealer. If you were a potential customer for a PC, would you
wait THREE MONTHS! What the ^&#$% is going on?
–jp–seattle–
John,
I just thought you would like to know that our users group decided to
"power up" from our 2000 to a 3000. We ordered it through Infotronics
(Woodbury CT) and received the 3000 (25mhz with 52meg HD) two weeks later!
I won't comment about your dealer, something is wrong there! -Paul-
-Paul-
Thanks for the word Paul. Like I said, I have no idea if the local dealer
is giving me the strait poop or not; but am apalled that a amiga dealer has
nothing higher than an A500 to show for months, and has to tell customers
that there is a three-month+ wait for PowerUp deals…. sheeze!
Am glad that it's not that way everywhere.
–jp–seattle–
JP- please send me the dealer's name E-mail. Is it O__I or someone else. I
live too far from Seattle to risk a *questionable* dealer.
Michael
Much of the problem is that your dealer carries very little stock.. When
ever you purchase direct from the manufacture (such as with IBM and CBM)
you must exspect a 3 to 4 month lag time (not allways, but usually). I
work with an IBM distributor that has been waiting on PS/2 Mdl 65's for 2
months.. If your dealer stocked serveral machines, and everytime one was
ordered he started the purchase of a new one he would be in good shape, but
many dealers only stock 1 or 2 A3000's, and when they sell out, it takes
time to replenish the supply..
Solution?? Let distributors handle stocking amigas, and then much of this
problem with disappear..
John,
My understanding is that the dealers around here now report no backlog.
If your dealer is still having trouble, the problem may be regional, or
very local (e.g., himself).
Karl
– via Whap!
Thanks. It's refreshing to know that amiga deliveries are better
nationwide right now (from others who have replied). I would hate to think
that everyone had to wait months for my favorite computer 🙂
Don't know about the dealer vs. regional answer…. just find it sad that
one of the three (!) Seattle area dealers can't get machines at all.
–jp–seattle–
John,
Gee, I visited one of those three dealers on a business trip in Jan.,
come to think of it. They carried a fair amount of stuff, I thought. (From
what I'm used to for a local dealer.) It was more or less downtown.
Karl
– via Whap!
Yeah I know the one you speak of. They do carry a fair amount of product,
and that's about all I'm gonna say about them. They were not the dealer
who is having problems, though.
–jp–seattle–
John;
My dealer told me yesterday that his rep. called him to ask him if he
wanted all of his 3000's delivered immediately (the rep knew that some of
David's customers were not necessarily ready to pay and were counting on
the delay). David accepted all the machines that were paid for (plus a
few) for good measure. -bill – via Whap!
John,
Sorry your local dealer seems to be so uninterested and uninteresting!
Ours is bringing his latest toy – an A3000 Tower – to our users group
meeting this Saturday. I am looking forward to playing with that puppy!
-Paul-
-Paul-
I'm sorry too. Would sure love to see a A3000T, up close and personal. If
a local dealer (who I liked) had one, they may even be able to SELL me one.
Fat chance though.
Let us know what you think of the 'T'….
–jp–seattle–
I'm the same as you John. I live in Hawaii where we have ONE authorized
dealer. I have no idea if he has a Tower in or not since I vowed NEVER to
step foot into his cave again. Too bad for him because I would probably
buy a Tower the second I saw it.
>>DonovaN
John,
Sorry, but the Tower did not come in in time for our users group
meeting. Nick (my dealer) figures he made a mistake. When CBM called him
and asked if he wanted a demo tower unit he waited two days before he
called back and said yes. He figures many others got "in line" before him
during that two days! Oh well. I'll give you a report once it comes in.
-Paul-
Thanks anyway. Still waiting for the 'real users' reports on the Tower to
come in. Soon, I'd bet!
–jp–seattle–
I'm waiting too. :^)
Ben
John,
Commodore will fix any of Commodore's computers…for a fee.
Don
Yah, but the claim was that Commodore Express would do it for free, within
24/48 hrs, or such…. Oh well. I'm not likely to be purchasing a new
machine anytime soon anyway, so at least I don't have to deal with it!
Thanks.
–jp–seattle–
Express service is handled through C= not the dealer and only applies to
the A500, Gold Service is for the 2XXX and 3XXX series, so those people who
bought from MG are being lied too, by MG (Montgomery Grant). I've seen
enough nightmares from there that it makes me shudder to think what they
sold the customers. But there is a good point here C= aquisition of parts
for a repair is often horrendous (we have been waiting for A2000 mother
boards for 3 months), although sometimes it's suprisingly good, but never
steady.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Fred,
You need to understand how the entire distribution system works in
order to understand why CBM (the United States distribution arm of
Commodore Int'l) won't honor warranties from unauthorized dealers such as
Montgomery Grant.
In simple terms, CBM, the organization we tend to simply call
'Commodore' is nothing more than a distributor. They buy equipment from
Commodore International (the parent company) and sell it thru their sales
channels where it eventuall ends up in your hands. CBM sets the suggested
retail pricing, sets the dealer policy, runs national advertising, runs
specials such as the power-up deals and educational pricing.
There are quite a number of distribution arms of Commodore Int'l.
For example, Commodore Canada is another one, and totally separate from
CBM.
In any event, part of they way these distribution arms set
wholesale pricing is how many computers they expect to sell, how many
they'll have to repair under warranty, how much overhead they have, and (of
course) how much Commodore Int'l charges them in the first place.
With that in mind…figure out how it'd throw off those numbers if
Joe Blow went up to Canada and bought several thousand computers from
Commodore Canada, and then brought them into the United States and sold
them here. Commodore Canada gets all the profit, and doesn't have to pay
any warranty work. CBM on the other hand, got zero dollars profit (they
didn't sell them) but would have to repair them if they break. In other
words…pure loss.
Add to that, companies like Montgomery Grant that sell refurbished
machines, they're not necessairly brand new. They may be dealer demos,
they may be returns and so forth.
continued…
continuation…
It's things like that, that cause CBM (and many other companies) to
only honor warranties on units sold thru their normal distribution
channels. That way, they have control over their profit/loss columns and
the quality of the machines out there.
Many, many companies do this.
As an example, how do you think GM would react to this:
Chevy dealer A has a showroom on the coast. Along comes Hurricane
Xenia and floods his car lot. All his cars are totally submerged in salt
water for 24 hours. Dealer A calls his insurance company who pays the
dealer off, and takes the cars as "totals". The insurance company then
sells the cars for scrap and you buy one.
You wash it down, have it detailed to remove all the soggy smell,
drain all the fluids and replace them with new fluids. You now have a
"refurbished" car with only one or two miles on it. You sell it to Joe
Blow for a good price….should Joe Blow get a warranty on the car as if it
were bought from dealer A in the first place before the flood?
Don
Amen, you've hit the main problem with MG onthe head!
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
If I was an unscrupulous (sp?) Chevy dealer (Joe Blow doesn't know that)
and I did that…Jow would assume he was buying a new car through a legit
dealer and would get warranty service.
How many potential Amiga buyers are there in the USA??? Subtract from that
the number of people here on CIS who read these threads (and other similar
nets like Genie etc) and you'll have a very large number of people who
would not have a clue that they would not have any factory warranty!
How would you like it if you bought a new car from a Chevy dealer to only
found out the day earlier that the dealer lost its factory authorized
status and therefore you had NO warranty!
Same effect…you didn't have a clue before you purchased your new car.
Certainly Commodore could check the serial number and determine if it
originally came from CBM Canada or elsewhere…..Something has to be done
for the buyer and Commodore needs to do something to prevent Amigas from
entering the gray market!
later!
Fred,
A few items:
One of the first things I ask when I buy a computer or a car is
what kind of warranty do I get? If I'm told I get a Commodore warranty,
and don't get one, then I've got a basis for a suit.
Commodore has in fact checked serial numbers of some of the
machines coming from Montgomery Grant and taken action against those
dealers who originaly had the machines…including revoking their status as
authorized dealers.
The biggest problem is that people are willing to accept this
situation, they buy a machine from a company like MG and when they have
problems…throw up their hands in desparation and end up paying for
repairs. They don't go after MG (or Commodore for that fact) because it's
too much trouble.
If companies like MG are lying to their customers…a quick call to
the Federal Trade Commission and/or Postal Inspectors office can get their
attention real quickly. If they're not lying, then the buyer only has
themselves to blame.
Not that it really matters, but it's my understanding that MG will
handle things that would normally be covered by a warranty themselves.
That is, if your machine breaks…you send it back to MG and MG will either
repair it, or replace it. Of course, we know what happens to the returned
defective unit…it gets resold in some (or even all) cases.
Don
And now for some conspiracy theories. I think Commodore uses grey
marketers to boost profits. They dump a lot of machines either directly or
indirectly to these places. If they don't have to support the warranty,
that's another dollar saved. I'd venture they do it to boost quarterly
sales figures.
John,
I do find it interesting that they always have a steady supply of
machines. It really would be interesting to see how they accomplish that.
Especially since they sell enough machines to permit them to place 3 and 4
page ads monthly in at least one magazine.
Don
On which I would make two comments. First, those ads are very expensive;
second, at the prices that MG sells the machines for, and the rest of their
wares, they must be selling a LOT!
–Ben
Don,
I heard a rumor (and it's only that) some while ago that a user group
member tracked a van from a CBM outlet (hmm, PA perhaps) to MG. For what
little it's worth.
Karl
– via Whap!
Absolutely! The machines come from somewhere… they certainly start at
Commodore. I think Commodore looks the other way when they discover the
latest route to the grey marketers. If their bottom line is looking slim, I
don't think they get fussy about who's selling what. It's not as though
they have a strong, well-funded dealer network who would *really* complain
about such tactics. I know they tick off a lot of dealers, and some get
smart enough to document it, but what can one dealer do? Some sales droid
says, gee, that's terrible, it won't happen again.
I called MG today and inquired about purchasing an Amiga 3000 16/50 and a
1950 monitor. They quoted $2199 + $599. I asked what kind of warranty I
would get and he said "I would get a 12 month Montgomery Grant warranty…
any defective problem with the A3000 or the 1950 would require me to return
the item to MG"
I didn't go into any further detail as to shipping costs, etc.
So, I'm satisfied…at least the buyer has some kind of warranty….with a
purchase of that magnitude the buyer should ask upfront about their
warranty before purchasing the items.
What had me concerned was seeing a new Amiga 3000 owner with absolutely
nothing to protect him especially if he/she was not aware of MG dealer
status (non-status!)
btw…those prices didn't seem like any bargain!!!
later!
They aren't.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Fred,
Not only aren't they a bargain…I don't believe the 16/50 version
of the 3000 is made anymore.
Don
I have no offense toward MG, basically because I never trust them what so
ever in a first place. Not only they have bad reputation here on CIS but
the fact that they reside in NY is a bad news. Although I live in NY!
I've actually been to MG, its right under Madison Square Garden, and all I
can say is that MG is like a cheap Discount Electronic shop<- not a
computer shop like environment. +They have more PC comapatible mumbo jumbo
and I doubt they know much about Amiga.
Its a problem to find legitimate computer store in NY after all. I've
shopped for MAC stuff once, and the place I went had no sample or stock
whatsoever. They just tell me to come up stair and negotiate, that moment,
I got right outta there!
I personally shop at Amagination in NY, they do pretty good business, but
price is bit steep, especially because I have to pay NY tax. I tried lots
of mail orders. I had good business with Computability(Not fast but
dependable), Manta(fast but not many stock). I kind a hate Creative
Computers, they seem to be dependable big company but they send me wrong
things couple of times.
As for buying Amiga itself, I definitely recommend buying it at your
nearest local dealer no matter what. That way they'll support your stuff
no matter what, and its good to establish yourself as a big buyer you may
get friendly with them easier!
Although considering all thing, I still have mis-believe in lots of Amiga
dealers. If things were fast, clean, & cheap like those Mac
retailers.<They do also have themselves a whole new ball games of
problems….
Be patient and selective
BYEEEEEE
– THANX R.SATOH ->via Whap!
I agree! Twelve months and TWO WEEKS after purchasing, my 030 board died.
Although he had no obligation, and gave up the profit on the repair, my
dealer talked CBM into replacing the board. And surprise, the new board
came with 4megs of 32bit ram instead of 2megs! I consider the extra cost of
buying from him the cost of my piece of mind "insurance".
-Paul-
Paul;
Yes, we now have a dealer… a real dealer! The so called dealer in
Raleigh has be a massive disappointment. Our new dealer in Durham is an
Amiga enthusiast. There are many dozens of us that pushing to try to see
that he is supported by the Amiga community. He is in 'startup' phase so
cash flow is an issue. Many larger purchasers are helping with that as
much as is possible.
We do things like pay in advance, assist in making his business visable at
users group meetings (particularly when he can't be there himself). Having
been without a supportive dealer now for around 4 years…. it is like a
breath of fresh air! -bill – via Whap!
Well I think AmigaWorld and others who accept ad's from Montgomery Grant
need to contact CBM and MG to get clarification of the warranty. AW has
been accepting Ad's for MG for quite some time, and if I ordered a computer
from MG because I saw the ad in AmigaWorld, and then found out that it
wasn't covered under warranty, I would go after AW in a suit also. The
magazines have a responsibility to protect the consumer from undesirable
dealers.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
But you do get a warranty…just not a Commodore warranty. YOu
have to send the machine back to MG for replacement/repair rather than take
it to your local Amiga dealer.
Don
Don,
Here's my answer to your Chevy scenario:
Xenia's right down the road and it was hit in '74 with a tornado, not a
hurricane.
So there.
Karl
P.S. FWIW, I agree with you.
– via Whap!
That's a good question, that I don't know the answer to. All I know is that
we won't get paid for (parts or labor) doing a MG or any other
non-authorized dealers repair. There have been a couple of exceptions, when
the customer contacted C= and C= contacted us to do a repair. My opinion of
Amiga World or ANY other Amiga mag carrying ads from non-authorized dealers
selling C= product is VERY LOW, because they KNOW OF this policy (it's in
the PROMO for the GOLD Service plan and all over all service center
agreements), and do nothing to protect thier readers.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Has anyone asked the editors at these mags why they don't do something
about this? I think that at the very least they should run an article on
this so that Amiga buyers that don't have access to forums such as this one
can also get the information. Why aren't they requiring the ads to carry
so sort of warning or disclaimer?
That's a goood question that I want answers from thes publishers on.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Doesn't AW have a CompUServ account? Do they bother to monitor the Amiga
forums? Maybe those of us here should remind them of their responsibility
to provide such IMPORTANT informat to their readers that don't have
CompUServ accounts.
I'm just glad I decided to go through a local (in Tampa) dealer this time
instead of by mail like normal. I probabily would have gone simply based
on price since I didn't know that there was any much less such a difference
amoung sellers.
Maybe we should start sending 'em letters. Any takers?
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
I'll send a few letters out. We've got to do our part to protect those
that are less informed about such practices.
Yes we do.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Is there anything illegal about what MG is doing? I don't see what, if
any?
If not, then why shouldn't they be allowed to advertise in amiga mags? As
was pointed out here, if they cross too many customers, and the govt gets
complaints, etc, then they won't be in business for long. But they seem to
be staying in biz, and doing moderately well at least.
I agree that I may not like it that they are allowed to advertise in amiga
mags, but for customers that know the limitations and are willing to put up
with it, that's their problem (and right).
The question of the magazines self-censoring themselves is interesting.
Should they give up ad revenue? (big ad spreads too!) Are they being
discriminatory if they refuse?
Let the buyer beware…. still good advice.
–jp–seattle–
They've sold used equiptment as new (that's illegal in New York), they've
put unauthorized add ins in machine (A3000 25/50 changed to A3000 25/100)
and sold the machine as a different model (also left out pieces of that
unit, like Workbench), sold A1000 mice with an A500 (not illegal but it
doesn't fit properly). The list goes on…
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Ben, no arguments if they are doing anything 'illegal'. If so, then some
consumer should step forward and press charges. Has the NY Consumer Rights
Division (do they have such a thing?) been notified? Have they
investigated?
Once charges are proved against them, I can see magazines legitimately
refusing to deal with them. Until then it would have to be self-censorship
on their part; not likely given the ad revenues?
–jp–seattle–
Almost all of the nightmares I've dealt with have gone to the Better
Business Burea, and other agencies, it seems that Montgomery Grant doesn't
care what they are told or cuaght at, they must be making tons of dough.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's