CompuServe Thread

#Caligari vs Imagine

61 messages in this thread
#12055From: Roy S. LauferOct 5, 1991 9:27 AM
Hi Everyone, As the new owner of a GVP Impact Video board, I now own a limited version of Caligari 3D rendering software. I would appreciate hearing from anyone that has used it and Imagine, and would like to hear any opinions on whether it would be advantageous to acquire Imagine to do any serious 3D work. I am purely a hobbyist and have shied away from 3D imaging software until I obtained a 24 bit graphics board. Presently I see no way to implement 24 bit animation, since the Caligari version supplied doesn't implement this feature, and all other 3D programs wouldn't animate using a 24 bit board. I would appreciate any informed opinion about this! Thanks. -RSL-
#12059From: John PendergrassOct 5, 1991 12:33 PM
First thing, Roy, please voice your opinions on the GVP Imact board! I, for one, am eagerly awaiting news from 'real' people about this board. Thanks. When you say that none of the 3D software uses 24bit animation, I assume you mean real-time? You can certainly use the 24bit images in a single-frame video recording environment, if you have the big $$$$ to afford such equipment. The only 'pseudo-24bit' boards that currently allow real-time animation are the HAM-E device (Black Belt Systems) and the DCTV (Digital Creations)…. So, if you want to create amiga real-time anims, you'll be forced to convert your 24bit images down to standard amiga resolutions (HAM, 32color, 16color, etc) and just do regular anims with them. A bit of a downer, when you really *want* 24bit animations! (I know, I use the FireCracker24 board, and cannot animation on it real-time either) A thought though…. I have had great success putting backgrounds in full 24bit resolution on the FireCracker24, and then playing live amiga-res animations over the top of it. Recording that. Because the background is the full hires-24bit resolution, doing the foreground is in lower color isn't nearly as noticable. Looks pretty good! (note: the FireCracker24 allows overlaying the amiga RGB out over the top of it's 24bit buffer image…. if the GVP board allows the same thing, then you could do above also) A side benefit of this method is that since the background (often complicated) is removed from the amiga animation, the resulting anim is often faster and shorter. A nice benefit. Re Caligari vs. Imagine, since I haven't used Caligari I can't say much. Imagine will certainly generate 24bit IFF files, which I suppose could be used with the GVP board? (would certainly hope so!) But it wouldn't automatically output to that board (nor will it automatically output to the FireCracker24 🙁 ) So, if Caligari meets your needs for 3D rendering, I'd probably stick with that. After you get more involved with [ MORE ]
#12132From: Roy S. LauferOct 7, 1991 8:09 PM
John, It's not that easy to discuss the IV24 well, since it's true impact (pardon the pun) is visual. The board does have this strange habit of having a few pixels that sparkel for the first 10 minutes that the machine is powered up. I'm not sure if it is a problem configuring some of the boards software controlled fine tuning controls or a matter of the board warming up a bit and coming up to full specs. After the ten minutes there is no visual artifact present, and the flicker fixer is just as good as my A3000's one. One of the great features of this board is both that you can render the 24 bit graphics to the computer monitor and you can still have a flickerless non-interlace display (unfortunately if you wish to output to a composite monitor/recorder you have to shift back to interlaced/flickering mode (a very simple procedure – just hit alt-F2 and it toggles it on/off). The two problems I have is the need to reboot to shift into and out of "Genlock Mode". From the docs, it indicates that this is due to the Amiga's requirements, rather than the IV24 board. The second problem is the erratic computer video quality, while in "Genlock Mode" (which is why it isn't a satisfactory solution to the first problem, to default always to the board's "Genlock Mode"). Using a video camera, the image is locked in well, but using my VCR's video output (fed from it's tuner) causes my monitor to jump about every few minutes (nothing terrible, just a bit annoying), and that's not even when it is actively genlocking with the signal. I am hoping that when I acquire a RGB converter (ordered today) that this problem will go away (I doubt it, but hope springs eternal). The image from the board is fantastic. Unfortuantely the simple software that loads the IFF24 images, distorts these images somewhat, and a fix is in the works. MacroPaint is far more buggy, and it is very easy to crash things by using this software for more than ten minutes. MacroPaint is VERY picky about [ MORE ]
#12133From: Roy S. LauferOct 7, 1991 8:09 PM
[ continuation ] loading IFF24 pics, and will often choose not to load a file that loads using the simple view software, and lock up the program. Once MacroPaint locks up, the graphics board can not be turned off, so the computer becomes inoperable until it is rebooted. MacroPaint has a great feature, that simulates switching screens to the workbench screen, and therefore operating the computer while MacroPaint and the 24 bit board hide in the background. It's a great idea, but badly implemented. If you move your mouse too close to the edge of the workbench screen, the 24 bit board will be superimposed onto the simulated workbench screen. This feature needs alot of work. Indeed, most of the software requires a lot of additional work. I can think of many features that they should design into their software, but I'll wait for them to get the simple stuff right first! Scala is quaint. It comes with one disk, and the major feature that I can see is it's ability to utilize WB 2.04's outline fonts (the only software I know of that can do this). The backgrounds offered in the individual package are not in this bundled version. In fact the IV24's ability to genlock backgrounds is supposed to take its place (BTW Scala doesn't utilize the IV24 actively in any way – it just serves as a genlocking background maker). Caligari is a bit of a disappointment. They added the ability to render directly to the IV24 bit board, and it appears to be a sturdy program. The problem is that they left out MANY of Caligari's features. They left out animation, point editing, metal shading to mention the major ones. It just seemed like they want to use it as an advertisement for some future verion of Caligari Broadcaster (for some rediculously expensive price). Perhaps if I had more experience with 3D modelers, I could go into more detail, and perhaps do greater things with the version of Caligari that they've bundled. At this point I am seriously considering purchasing Imagine. Ray tracing, although it is more [ MORE ]
#12134From: Roy S. LauferOct 7, 1991 8:09 PM
[ continuation ] CPU intensive, is still the best way to simulate 3D images (until someone starts writing a "wave rendering software package"). I hope this rambling if what you were expecting. I am looking forward to getting my RGB converter, so that I can genlock onto my computer screen, and get to play with the Picture-In-Picture program. That should be fun! If I left out some aspect, feel free to ask away. I consider it my duty as "the first guy on the block to get the IV24" to pass on my gut feelings, without the need to be kind advertisers. The one thing this board has done is make me hope that there are more pieces of software written that use the IV24 board, or atleast IFF24 files. I'd love to see 3D fractals generated with 256 levels of color or grays (Are you listening Dr. Wolf <G>!). I'm having loads of fun playing around with VistaPro and the IV24. -RSL-
#12175From: Leslie T. BartiromoOct 9, 1991 6:24 AM
Roy, Thanks for the quick overview/first look at IV24! Would it be impolite to ask what it costs and where you purchased it? Please keep us (or just ME if no one else cares) updated as to new stuff you find right and wrong. One other question, have you seen Firecracker 24 and if so, how does it compare to IV24? Thanks!
#12183From: Roy S. LauferOct 9, 1991 6:21 PM
Leslie, You're welcome. This is going to hurt typing, since I haven't had the "jo" to write the check to my credit card. I paid $2,174.95 including shipping and handling, from Creative Computing. I haven't had the opportunity to see the Firecracker 24 other than a quick look at a past AmiExpo. Some of the major features that lead me to the IV24 was the ability to maintain a single RGB monitor with external switching, and the ability to maintain a non-interlaced computer screen. The PIP and frame grabbing features were additional "icing on the cake". I am anxiously awaiting Harmonic Research's Composite->RGB converter, inorder to play with the latter features. I'll be sure to voice my ohhs and ahhs (hopefully) when I get a chance to try them out! -RSL-
#12221From: Leslie T. BartiromoOct 10, 1991 7:56 PM
I thought I read IV24 was around that price range. That's quite a bit higher than a Toaster or Firecracker 24. (Actually, it's about the price of a Toaster AND a Firecracker 24!) Off the subject a bit: There is an article in the latest "Forbes" magazine that tell about how TV's and computers are merging. It is interesting reading and mentions Commodore briefly as a loan sorce for an experimental television.
#12272From: Roy S. LauferOct 12, 1991 8:27 AM
Leslie, You're right about the high price, but they are all three very different things. Each board has there own uses, their own advantages as well as disadvantages. After all, as powerful as the toaster is, without a TBC, it is a "24 bit" composite output device. If you have an A3000, the toaster is little more than a very expensive paper weight! If I could get the features that the IV24 offers for a cheaper price I would have jumped at the chance! -RSL-
#12298From: Peter GreciOct 13, 1991 10:24 AM
I heard the Toaster is useable on a 3000 with 2 somewhat simple modifications.1-ya have to trim the 3000's case a bit to allow the Toaster to fit and 2 replace the new Denise with an older version. This is what I heard.I haven't tried it so……….
#12308From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPOct 13, 1991 3:41 PM
I had heard that the Denise replacement was no longer needed, as NewTek had done some kind of software change to allow it to work with the newer Denise. So all you'd need is to trim the case to make it fit. Or at least, that's what I've been told. If you really need to know, you can always call NewTek. –>Steve Bennett
#12360From: Peter GreciOct 15, 1991 12:19 PM
Hmmmm Thanx for the info.I'll ask in the Amigaven area
#12376From: Roy S. LauferOct 15, 1991 6:56 PM
Peter, I believe you are right, but why would anyone go to the trouble of buying an A3000 and then start sawing away at it's case, and pulling out it's chips. I happen to like my A3000 the way it is. If I was going to run my own cable station I guess I would just go with an accelerated A2000 with the toaster and thousands of dollars of additional necessary equipment. All things considered, I'm happy with my IV24 (but I'll be happier with it when my Composite->RGB converter comes in and I get to try out it's PIP and fram grabbing features!). -RSL-
#12433From: Peter GreciOct 17, 1991 8:55 AM
Sounds good to me.I was just mentioning that the toaster is useable on a 3000
#12060From: John PendergrassOct 5, 1991 12:33 PM
[ continuation ] modeling, then you'll be in a better position to decide if Caligari is sufficient or not, and to pick & choose among other programs carefully (Imagine, Sculpt, Real3D, 3DPro, etc)….. Hope this wasn't too long. A favorite subject of mine! Good luck, and please do post everything you can about the GVP board. –jp–seattle–
#12076From: R.SATOHOct 5, 1991 11:53 PM
Serious envy towards you….. I saw IV24 at some convention. I was pretty impressed. I definitely will buy one if the price range was lower. As of software, too bad it only comes with Caligari consumer version. Caligari shows its maximum power when incorporated in animation! I think the main difference between Caligari and Imagine is its ease of use. Imagine can definately pull of some impressive image as well as animation but it falls short on documentation + intuitiveness. I saw Caligari Broadcast version and was impressed how you move things around or transform object. I guess if you are serious and capable of fully utilizing Imagine, I would recommend it. Another thing, I think the latest trend in 3D is not raytrace. Because raytrace take too much time, simulating raytrace in normal rendering and how much its close to raytrace image matters. Considering that, Imagine fall short on speed, and in normal rendering, image doesn't look that great although its fast. So if you can afford it buy one anyway, why not… You can get all kinds of documentation other than Impulse to full fill the lack of documentation now a days. One other 3D software I would look into is REAL 3D. The image looked good and there should be a DEMO here on CIS BYEEE – THANX R.SATOH ->via Whap!
#12135From: Roy S. LauferOct 7, 1991 8:10 PM
Rawl, What can I tell you, it was my birthday, and I'd never forgive me if I didn't buy it (besides if you can't spoil yourself rottin to the core, what's the point of life anyway <G>)! My understanding is that current technology produces the best images using ray tracing. The problem with ray tracing is its slow rendering time. Other techniques such as giraud or phong are far less CPU intensive, but CAN give good images in certain cases. The best technique that has recently been discussed in the jouranls is "wave tracing", which treats light as a wave phenomena, rather than as a ray/particle. Although this gives more realistic images (supposedly), it is much more CPU intensive. The specialist are trying to find an efficient algorithm to produce images using this principle. I realize that 3D rendering is very dependent on the user's expertise, and that Imagine's docs are not great. I plan to get Imagine in a month or so, along with any reasonable third party instruction books that I can find! -RSL-
#12139From: R.SATOHOct 7, 1991 10:51 PM
Hmmm interesting info on wave tracing. From the way I see it, for these CPU intensive stuff I figure I need a Accelerator. I thought A3000 25mhz was fast but not really when you get into 3D. And especially for Imagine Raytrace I don't think 68040 will be fast enough either, so the quest for speed with these 3D softwares.. As of now, I want true 24bit display device, 68040, 24bit full bed color scanner, ..so on and on…. Probably I have to wait till these things get dirt cheap and then I'm tempted by more new stuff. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Yep Imagine is great, and hopefully it will get bet with next upgrade. Lets say its still your birthday, check out those REAL 3D and tell me what you think! $$$$$$$ Oh well, I'm sorry, I'm just too envy of other people. THANX – THANX R.SATOH ->via Whap!
#12158From: Roy S. LauferOct 8, 1991 6:12 PM
Rawl, Going from 68030/25mhz to 68040/25mhz only gets you a 300% improvement (not worth the $1400 cost in my opinion). I was considering PP&S's 68040 board which was planned to have a real-time file compression function that was going to double available hard drive capacity, but they have appeared to drop that feature. No one even features large Static RAM caching (only internal dual 8K caching is available). Perhaps if the features/cost ratio improves (someday)! As far as going out and buying a bunch of 3D rendering software, I'm not made of money Rawl <G>! I don't have the time to figure out more than one complicated 3D rendering program (I am already behind in reading my present softwares documentation). I'm planning on Imagine (whether it is 1.x or 2.0 is up to Impulse) for now… -RSL-
#12179From: Vic WagnerOct 9, 1991 3:19 PM
Roy, I don't know if it's the reason, but I had mentioned to PP&S a while back that the compression scheme suffers when one must do random seeks. They agreed but opined that it didn't happen all that often. I then suggested they try writing a few big IFF files (most IFF writers do MANY 'seeks' while writing).
#12186From: Roy S. LauferOct 9, 1991 6:46 PM
Vic, So you're the reason they dropped that great sounding feature, eh <grin>. Oh well, it sounded like a great idea when I read it. Why doesn't anyone offer a large last memory cache on 68040 boards. It seems that all the 68040 boards offer the same features. I guess its a good thing for my checkbook that I don't see a 68040 board that I like! -RSL-
#12168From: Peter GreciOct 8, 1991 9:05 PM
There are a load of HELP files here on CIs as well as a Few Imagine objects I uploaded and others have ULed
#12167From: Peter GreciOct 8, 1991 9:01 PM
To animate in 24 Bit color you need a Single Frame accurate VTR or a Recordable Laser Disc machine.I have both Caligari and Imagine and like Imagine more.It is VERY easy to model with Imagine as well
#12182From: Roy S. LauferOct 9, 1991 6:20 PM
Peter, Thanks for the comment. How important do you find the metal shader in Caligari (my version leaves this feature out and the metal surfaces are pale imitations of the real thing. Is Imagine as easy to model with as Caligari? -RSL-
#12294From: Peter GreciOct 13, 1991 10:14 AM
I find it easier to Model with Imagine than with Caligari I used Caligari for approx 1 week and didn't like it at All I even prefer Sculpt 4D and Turbo Silver to it
#12374From: Roy S. LauferOct 15, 1991 6:55 PM
Peter, Thanks for your opinion. It confirms my feeling that the partial version of Caligari wasn't the best software available to use with my new IV24. I just ordered Imagine, along with Mapmaster and SurfaceMaster. Do you know of any third party text to help first time users??? BTW, I just downloaded the Compendium in the DL here on the Forum. -RSL-
#12408From: John PendergrassOct 16, 1991 7:38 PM
Roy, a sure winner in the Imagine help area is 'The Imagine Companion', a book/disk combo. Sells for @ 30.00. You'd have to write the publisher, Motion Blur Publishing, 915A Stambaugh Street, Redwood City, CA 94063 about ordering. (Maybe your dealer, or a mail order places is carrying it now? – it's been out for six months – one year or so.) The book has several tutorials well done, and a decent 'hints&tips' section. Anyway, you done good on the Map/SurfaceMaster…. it's certainly not a tutorial on using Imagine, but definitely helps you get the most out of it's effects. –jp–seattle–
#12491From: Roy S. LauferOct 19, 1991 2:32 PM
John, Thanks for the information. Do you happen to have Motion Blur Publishing's address? I'd love to know the exact price along with shipping and handling fees for the book/disk. I've downloaded the compendium in the DL area, but haven't had time to REALLY study it. I just got the program, and the documentation is appalling!!! This thing looks like it should come with a two semester college course. So far I'm so intimidated that I haven't installed it into my hard disk yet. In addition to Imagine and Map/Surface Master, I got something called ProTextures, which are high quality maps in both HAM and 24 bit versions, to map across Imagine objects. I can't imagine (no pun intended) what Impulse has in store for us with Imagine 2.0! BTW, Creative bundled Imagine: A Guided Tour with the program. I guess its a nice tape to get started, but it certainly doesn't contain any less than obvious aspects of the software (indeed, at times I think they actually quote from it!). I seem to remember a video made by people at Impulse. Do you remember its name and where it can be gotten (and your opinion of it, if you've seen it)! Thanks again! -RSL-
#12497From: John PendergrassOct 19, 1991 11:43 PM
Motion Blur Publishing, 915A Stambaugh Street, Redwood City, CA 94063 -I just looked up the check I wrote for it = $29.95, so I guess there was no shipping charge. Another video tape, much better than the guided tour, is "Imagine – The Possibilities, Volume 1". This was done by Rick Rodriquez, the Impulse rep in AmigaVendor. Explains some things pretty well, but still not an 'end-all' for Imagine use. It is available from Impulse for $30, as I recall. You can go into debt getting Imagine tutorial stuff. Nothing beats just sitting down for a long time experimenting though 🙂 –jp–seattle–
#12676From: Roy S. LauferOct 27, 1991 1:10 PM
John, Thanks for the info! I just sent a check to Motion Blur for their book. I guess I'll be making a call to Impulse to find out about their Video. "Playing around with Imagine" is a real kick, I wish there was an inexpensive way to speed up rendering time (I use scan option rather than trace). Perhaps next year's birthday present will be a 68040 upgrade. I wonder what Imagine 2.0 will offer… -RSL-
#12434From: Peter GreciOct 17, 1991 8:58 AM
Theres a Videotape that is great if yer a total beginner and I also just bought a disk/book combo called the Imagine Comapanion also look in the Amigaven and here for objects ULed by myself and others.Also don't forget that if ya have Syndesis Interchange You can use AutoCad and Atari ST CAD 3D models /exit
#12492From: Roy S. LauferOct 19, 1991 2:33 PM
Peter, Thanks. Where did you get the book/disk combo (retailer or direct)? If you ordered it direct, can you tell me their phone number and/or total price with shipping and handling. Was the video "A Guided Tour"? That video was bundled with my program purchase from Creative. I'll check into the AmiVendor DL areas for Imagine objects. At this point this program seems to be rather intimidating. I wonder what they're going to add in 2.0! -RSL-
#12585From: Peter GreciOct 24, 1991 8:46 AM
I got it at my local Dealer Sorry dude.I got the "possibilites" tape
#12678From: Roy S. LauferOct 27, 1991 1:10 PM
Peter, Is that the tape sold by Impulse? -RSL-
#12704From: Peter GreciOct 28, 1991 8:28 AM
one Imagine tape is sold by Centaur Software the other I forget who But neither are by Impulse
#12845From: Roy S. LauferNov 2, 1991 7:17 AM
Peter, I've seen the Centaur/RGB video. It's strictly for the beginner. The other one is sold by Impulse (which is where I ordered it). -RSL-
#12187From: Roy S. LauferOct 9, 1991 6:46 PM
Peter, I've recently dropped a bunch of money on my Amiga, but it's peanuts to the price of a professional single frame VTR. If I was a professional, I would think about it, as a hobbyist, I can only wait and see if the price EVER plummets! -RSL-
#12295From: Peter GreciOct 13, 1991 10:16 AM
Yup,I know Single frame capable VTR's are expensive tho Actually now that Sony has Released there Recordable Laser Disc machine I'd prefer one of those at the bargain price of $37,000 plus $300 per blank Disc.The nice thing is Your master will be INCREDIBLE and even once ya copy to tape from Laser Disc there is almost no loss perceived.The tape will look like it is the First generation(original)
#12375From: Roy S. LauferOct 15, 1991 6:55 PM
Peter, Gee… ONLY $37,000. Something to consider for next year's birthday present <G>. But seriously folks, some day the prices will go down to consumer prices, but by then it's possible that real time high class graphics will also be available at similar realistic consume price ranges. Who knows what the twenty-first century will give us (I know Jerry Pournelle doesn't have the faintest idea {GRIN})! -RSL-
#12189From: John PendergrassOct 9, 1991 8:17 PM
"To animate in 24bit color you need a single frame accurate VTR or a Recordable Laser Disc machine…." OR, you need a good film recorder. 🙂 (I would love the new Poloroid CI-3000 film recorder with 24bit accuracy, 4000+ X 2000+ pixel resolution, etc…. would make a real nice film, no? Wonder how long it would take to render all those 4000+ X 2000+ Imagine images though? 🙂 –jp–seattle–
#12209From: BILL LEACHOct 10, 1991 10:23 AM
donna know, but bet you could use 4×5 sheet film and change it by hand 🙂 -bill – via Whap!
#12212From: Vic WagnerOct 10, 1991 4:11 PM
John, While I don't know about the CI-3000, I did see a film recorder (analog NTSC scan rate, RGB, Composite, or S-VHS) at our last Graphics/Video SIG. It is being sold by Prime Option (yes, the old Liquid Light people) and the price was reported to be US$1995 (MSRP). It took about 15 seconds to record a frame.
#12296From: Peter GreciOct 13, 1991 10:19 AM
I shudder to Imagine(he he) how long a 4000*2000 rez pic would take I rendered my Battloid Model in Imagine in Full Trace and even with my Accelerator on(adspeed) it took over 10 hours and that was only a 320*400 pic.BTW that Film Recorder you mentioned Is that for Stills only or can you use MOVIE film of 70 mm Variety That can be shown in Theatres? thanx
#12306From: John PendergrassOct 13, 1991 3:33 PM
The Poloroid CI-3000 film recorder can accept 35mm movie film, if you purchase the 'film back' for it. Rather costly, I've been led to believe. Yeah, it would take a while to render a film in 4000×2000 res, but that's only till we get our 68060's, right? 🙂 –jp–seattle–
#12361From: Peter GreciOct 15, 1991 12:21 PM
Naaaa forget the 68xxx series Rumor has it that CBM is working on RISC setup or better yet a new Superchip running at 35 Billion instructions per nanosecond hehehehehe with 40 gigs standard all for $1999.95 and of course a 750 Gig removable HD for another $500
#12379From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPOct 15, 1991 7:45 PM
Yeah, but will a Toaster fit into it? Steve
#12435From: Peter GreciOct 17, 1991 8:59 AM
Yup BUT you have to cut a bit off yer 3000's casing to fit the toaster in
#12194From: Wayne ColeOct 9, 1991 11:26 PM
The modelling may be easy with Imagine, but the animation is damnear impossible! After 3 days (full days) of trying to get a simple path that goes from +y to -y (i.e. a line) in the top view with an object whose front is facing in the -y, and have the object align to path going "forward" down the -y (i.e. comingout of the screen at ya) I have concluded that it is not possible because path directions cannot be changed easily. Also, the 180 deg rotation put on the added point win a split segment operations makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!! It appears basically that you must already know how the objets are goint to move before you build them due to limitations on paths and object alignments to the paths. Very poor and "unfreindly" if you ask me. wmc
#12215From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPOct 10, 1991 5:19 PM
Did you try using key frames for the starting and ending points and letting Imagine take care of the tweening? You might look at the Imagine Compendium and the Imagine Mailing list archives in the library. There are a lot of good tips in there…and it really helped me! Steve
#12235From: Wayne ColeOct 11, 1991 2:01 AM
Steve, I hit it again fresh today, ignored the docs and tried it similar to the way Sculpt does it. It worked after I transposed the objects axis AND figured out that paths only go out the +y axis regardless of where the next point is on the path (at least that is true in the top view). wmc
#12297From: Peter GreciOct 13, 1991 10:21 AM
Why not simply use the "Align" feature and "ADD" the turns ya need
#12428From: Wayne ColeOct 17, 1991 2:25 AM
Basically 'cause the camera won't follow the object I want it to follow for the frames I want it to. I had to call Impulse. They revealed that you have to creat another path and an object (axis) to track the camera to. So then the trick became trying to get the object and "track axis"to be in the same places at the same times so that the camera could pan for the portion of the object "fly-by" that was close to the camera. It took 3 days and roughly 20 renderings of the animation to get it right. I don't care what anybody says – the animation control in Imagine is not intuitive. In fact, I'd call it a mess. I don't believe that if I position an object at the start of a path at frame 1, and I don't want it to start moving until frame 21, that it should move to the end of the path in frame 2 simply 'cause I put one position bar in frame 1 and the "follow path" position bar in 21 – 70 of a 90 frame animation. To reslove the problem I have to add another position bar at 2, identical to frame 1's position using the postion bar menu in the stage editor, then tween from 3 to 20 with the end position of the tween identical to the fram 2 position. We won't talk about the needlessly complex way that one must use to select objects in the stage editor (whats wrong with a simple click or double click?) or the fact that you must define paths in the detail editor but can only edit them in the stage editor. Even the defaults in the requestors are offset top the right and th cursor is left justified so that editing the default requires many more strokes than it should. The results may look good, but the overly complex, unweildy interface will wear you, your mouse, several sheets of paper and a pencil or two out to get there. wmc
#12436From: Peter GreciOct 17, 1991 9:01 AM
What needlessly complex method of chossing objects?I don't know what version of imagine you are using that doesn't allow you to click twice on an objects axis to pick it but mine(1.1) works fine with 2 clicks.
#12504From: Wayne ColeOct 20, 1991 1:47 AM
Peter, I have 1.1. I am using the "FP" version. In the stage editor, the only way to pick an object is to either: 1. use "select next" or "select previous" previous repeatedly from the menu until the object is "oranged". Then use "pick selected" from the same menu. OR 2. Use the "find requestor" menu item. Select the desired item from the requester. Then use the "Pick select" menu item. Double clikcking turns the item blue, but blue means nothing, apparently, in the stage editors. In the other editors it means sometimes " the last thing you picked whit ch is no longer picked" (useles information if you ask me, since there seems to be no processsig based on it) or a member of a multiple pick operation (picking with the shift key down). Note that on the other editors, double clicking works but not on the stage editor. Also, deitting the path in the stage editor does not "take". I have to go back to the deatail editor, recreate the path I want to edit with edits I want to make, save it, go back to the stage editor, delete the old version, load the new version. VERY poor method, but no other one seems to work. wmc
#12586From: Peter GreciOct 24, 1991 8:47 AM
Don't don't make sense Bro.I'm using the Non FP version and it works fine if I double click
#12604From: Wayne ColeOct 24, 1991 11:29 PM
Peter, I guess I better call Impulse again. Double click in the Stage editor doesn't work, at least on my FP version. wmc
#12612From: Peter GreciOct 25, 1991 8:29 AM
Hope ya find out the problem.Ya might wanna un compress the prg again from yer original disk
#12682From: Karl SparklinOct 27, 1991 1:11 PM
Wayne, You can also just hit F1 after the object you've clicked on is blue. Karl – via Whap!
#12698From: Wayne ColeOct 28, 1991 1:37 AM
Karl, Thanks. I'll give the "F1" a try. wmc
#12476From: Charles BlaquiereOct 18, 1991 11:37 PM
Wayne, regarding your problems with having an object stay put for 20 frames before starting its journey along a path, I think you approached it from the wrong point of view. A simple solution to me would be to look up the position of the path's initial control point through the Transform requester, then define a 1-frame Position bar at frame 1 and type in the same coordinates. Frames 2-19 of the Position track would be empty, leaving the object at the same spot, and the "follow path" Position bar would stretch from frames 21 to 70. What's wrong with that? Blaq! – via Whap!
#12507From: Wayne ColeOct 20, 1991 1:48 AM
Charles, Your method is EXACTLY what I tried. However, leaving the 2-19 frames blank in position bar caused the track object to go to the end of the path position until fram 20 where it reverted back to the start of the path and began to track as directed. Note that it would have been a whole lot easier if Impulse allowed the camera to have multiple alignment track lines with tracking set to the object you wnat to view. However, this results in very jerky motion. A phone call to them resulted in the suggestion of creating a seperate "track object" (axis) that has the multiple position/alignment bars needed to track the object to be photgraphed. Then the camera has one "track to track object" bar. [I guess this is the "transitive law of animation".] Very poor and overly complex design, ESPECIALLY since it ain't documented, IMHO.