#Open Letter to CBM
16 messages in this thread
Charles,
One potential problem is the lack of a common clipboard. Since the Amiga
OS doesn't support all the varieties of data in a standard way, the user
may be forced to choose between programs that can share data to suit their
needs.
If the user can't cut and paste from one program to another easily and
without loss of quality, your argument loses something from a usability
standpoint. An integrated set of programs may be able to offer that. My
favorite solution is to build the capability into the OS, not sell more
"integrated" packages…
*** jd
John,
Either I'm mis-understanding your message, or you are mis-informed about
the clipboard/OS… while there has been a shamefull lack of programs
utilizing the clipboard as a common point of data interchange, there is
(and has always been) standards documented for clipboard use.
Specifically, the specification says that clipboard data must be in IFF
format, of which there are many 'common' (or easily parsed) chunk types
such as 'FTXT'.
It's really not up to the OS to "support all the varieties of data in a
standard way", that's what IFF and other file formats are for… defining
how data is laid out so that other 'programs' can understand and/or use the
data where appropriate.
So, the capability IS already buitl into the OS (ie. providing the
'means' for connectivity), it's up to the programmers to utilize that
capability.
Thankfully, I think we are now seeing more and more programs use the
clipboard and I expect that trend to grow exponentually with new 2.0
products as C= has provided developers with more tools and an easier path
to getting the data in and out of the clipboard.
With good clipboard support and now the inclusion of ARexx as part of
the OS, 'Integration' takes on a whole new meaning… programs should do
one thing well, not many things half-*ss. I think we agree here, let the
USER do the integrating that _he/she_ wants.
Keith
Keith,
I wasn't aware that it was software developers who have failed to implement
clipboard support, not the OS, and I hope makers of productivity packages
add it in a way that allows software from different companies work
together. The lack of such support shows a lack of vision.
I agree that integrated programs aren't the best way, just that the only
conceivable advantage to them (other than a theoretically common user
interface) is cutting and pasting between them for easy data interchange.
Other ways to exchange data could be through ARexx or by saving an entire
file and then opening it in another program (as I do to go from ProWrite to
Professional Page), but this doesn't provide as integrated a "feel" to the
Amiga user, IMHO.
*** jd
John,
Yes, it was _us_ developers who fell down on the job.
Well, the Amiga supports two standard clipboards, but most programs only
support one. The ClipBoard has been around since 1985, though it wasn't a
great implementation and a lot of software didn't support it.
Now we have ARexx. Data can be sent directly to or requested directly from
any application with an ARexx interface. ARexx allows one program to
control another as long as they have ARexx ports and any type of scripting
commands. I am currently working on an application where Superbase Pro
uses ARexx to capture an image from GVP's IV24 board, then send that image
to ADPro. ADPro converts the image to a grey-scale picture; scale's it
down to the size I need; saves it in the new picture format and sends the
picture back to SuperBase. Superbase then includes the image on a form and
prints it out.
The only user interaction (besides typing the text on the form) is to hit
the F-10 key when the desired image appears in the picture-in-picture
window.
TO head off a question — excluding games I would estimate that 90% of all
programs written for the Amiga in the last two years (commercially) have
ARexx support. All the major titles do. ARexx is now included with any
system you purchase as Commodore is including it in the box (already
installed on my A3000).
-Chas
Charles,
I keep hearing people say that the original clipboard "wasn't a great
implementation". I've NEVER heard anyone say what IS required for a 'good'
or even 'better' implementation. Could you please enumerate what YOU think
is required of a clipboard to make it acceptable?
John,
About software standards and the Amiga clipboard…
Does CATS provide developers a list of "Thou shalt nots" and "Thou shalts"
for obeying the clipboard standards. Maybe Apple's heavy-handedness has
worked. The MAC Clipboard is very useful.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Harold,
"Thou _SHALT_ write clips in IFF." End of story.
Soon followed by Commandment #2, "Thou SHALT omit clipboard support from
your product, since no one else is doing it, and since the contents of IFF
hunks are rarely standard, and since CBM never really pushed the fact that
products should have useful clipboard functions like you find on the Mac
and Windows." Something like that, right?
John,
I really don't know. We had one of the first 'productivity' programs
available. We did NOT include clipboard support (I guess we never saw any
use for clipping debugging information…we were wrong). Maybe if we HAD
included it, others would have followed.
I'll take your word that IFF hunks are rarely standard, only experience
I have is with IFF/ILBM flavo(u)rs.
I'd be glad to be proven wrong! Can we assemble a list of the products
that use the clipboard, and describe what kind of data they put there? The
proof is in the pudding.
While in the past (and even currently) that list would be quite short, I
think you will see it growing rapidly as 'new' products are released. I
know of several (under developement) products that plan clipboard support.
And yes, IFF chunks come in many different flavours, but one of the
simplest IFF chunks in existance is the FTXT chunk, containing ascii
textual data, it's perfect for passing text to/from the clipboard.
Just to start your list off… TxEd (been using the clipboard for years,
I beleive), TurboText, Workbench 2.0 shell windows (using conclip), Snap
and OSnap.
Those are just the ones I know of off-hand, I'm sure some of the DTP
packages use it… as I said, the list today would be short, but I think
it's getting longer by the month.
Keith
Yes, I've long known that TxEd had clipboard support. The Amiga's been
around for how long, and we've still got a *short* list of programs that
use the most elementary part of today's GUIs? On a machine that's always
had multitasking? It's kind of sad. Aside from simple text support, I'm
sure we've been stymied by the lack and apparent derth of desire for a
system-wide structured format, such as the Mac's PICT and Windows's WMF
metafiles.
Vic,
Then why isn't "Thou _SHALT_ write clips in IFF" enough to make the Amiga
clipboard as useful as the MAC's? Your thoughts, please.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Harold,
I don't know. I've only used a MAC for a grand total of maybe 30
minutes (2 years AFTER I owned an Amiga….I hated it). I asked the
question about what would make a 'useful' clipboard NOT as a quiz; I really
don't know and would like to implement a 'useful' clipboard in our future
products.
Vic,
I am not saying that Macs are exciting. I do my Mac stuff under A-MAX-II.
The software, however, is much more mature (useful, polished, etc) for the
stuff I need to do in business. For example, I would never use
Platinum_Works! (Analyze!) to prepare a price quotation for a customer. I
would use Microsoft Excel 3 for the Mac. I like the control of fonts and
page it gives.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!