#laser printers
41 messages in this thread
this is a request for help on picking a laser printer. Do most laser
printers work with the amiga? What printer driver would you use. How does
the program output a font that is not resident in the printer. Do
compugraphic fonts look as nice as post script ones. Any suggestions would
be helpfull. The printer would be used for home and some DTP for a small
buisness. thanks in advance
Ken Holm
71340,2351
Hi Ken,
Yes, most lasers will work with the Amiga.
You would use a printer driver for the HP LaserJet if the printer is
HP-compatible (and most are. Also known by the acronym PCL).
If the printer-resident fonts are not PostScript, you won't be using them!
If the laser is PostScript, you should get 35 in it. If not, it doesn't
matter what's in it. If you're not using PostScript, all the text will be
sent as a bitmap anyway.
Personally, I don't think CG fonts look as good as Adobe ones.
Malcolm
thanks for your reply. If the printer resident fonts are not used, why are
they there. I was thinking of possibly buying a HPIII. If I didn't get the
postscript cartridge what type of output would i get. if i used the driver
for the laserjet would i be using the new PCL5 language and Resolution
Enhancement. If any one else has any comments or suggestions or favorite
laser printer for the amiga please speak up.
There are PC applications that know how to talk to Laserjets to use the
internal fonts. If there are such apps on Ami, I don't know about it. Such
an application would need to have its own printer drivers, I suspect. And
the application would have to offer "Dot matrix, PostScript or LaserJet"
choices.
I've been looking at the IIIP myself. Yes, it has PCL5 but I'm not sure if
we have a driver that knows what to do with it. And the res enhancement is
at a lower level than the language. You get it with PCL _or_ PostScript.
Malcolm
Malcolm
well i am finally understanding a little. one other question is if i buy a
HPIIIP with postscript i will get 35 resident post script fonts on the
printer. where will i get the matching fonts for display in my word
processor (excellence- it has Ptimes & Phelvetica) and for a desk top
publishing program. since i don't have the latter i don't know if any come
with the program. also if you or some one could explain how the CG fonts
would work both with the printer and on the monitor i would be
appreciative. once again thanks for the help
Ken Holm
71340,2351
Ken: the 35 matching screen fonts are usually sold in a separate package
~rfor DTP's. For example, Soft-Logik sells a package called Font Plus Pack
with screen bitmaps and screen outlines for $79.95 I believe. (Or Disk A
with just bitmaps for $39.95, don't quote me on prices.) For use with
ProPage, Gold Disk sells the 35 CG font set. Same idea.
SL Tech
Ken,
All of the DTP programs will access the resident fonts, no problem. They
all include screen fonts. excellence I don't know about. I think I recall
reading that it only allows a limited selection of point sizes. But another
excellence user will have to answer.
Malcolm
Ken, This is the second attempt at a reply – power outage interrrupted the
first one as I had it nearly completed in Whap!
Anyway, the version of excellence! that I have is (as is all MSS software)
a little weird and, I beleive does not completely follow CBM development
guidelines. It will only look in SYS:Fonts/ for font files. It does not
seem to take into account where FONTS: device is assigned. It will not
handle scaleable fonts like a DTP program; that is it won't allow you to
define and use a point size that is not in the SYS:Fonts/<fontname>/#?.
For example, suppose you have directory SYS:FONTS/Junk with files 8, 12,
and 18 in the Junk directory. You also have file SYS:FONTS/Junk.font. This
means that this is a standard "amiga bitmap" font that you can select sizes
8, 12 or 18 point for use in excellence!. If you also have a file
SYS:FONTS/Junk.metric, then documents that use this font may be output to a
postscript device. (The font needs to be 'in' the postcript printer,
either because it is built in or you have downloaded it.)
This is all approrpiate to ADos 1.3. I have no idea how excellence! works
with 2.0 and its scaleable fonts.
wmc
Most Amiga applications do not support PCL, the HP page description
language, because it does not offer the features required by Amiga desktop
publishers. Therefore, it's easier to treat it as a 'dumb' printer and just
send it a created bitmap graphic.
SL
-> [PCL] does not offer the features required by Amiga [DTPers]
Say what? It evidently offers the features needed by PC users. What do you
mean by this. I just figured it wasn't worth the extra work for developers.
Malcolm
I can't remember the details off hand, but I was told by the boss that PCL
doesn't support all the things that PostScxIbt supports. I could be off on
some of these, but I think a lot of the font stuff in PCL is pretty
kindergarten compared to PostScript. It's fine for stuff like WordPerfect
which pumps out nice lines of text at body text sizes, but when you start
distorting text, using gradient fills, wierd halftone patterns (still on
the wishlist), PCL just doesn't enter into the competition. You don't see
Quark come rushing out with a PCL driver either for the same reason.
XxD9PCL can't support these features. Thus the page must be sent as a
bitmap. {_~rSure, it could support some basic features, but PgS can't look
at the page and decide "hmmm, need to use a bitmap dload for this one."
SL Tech
SLT,
(That's what I'll call you since that's what you sign.)
Until the III series, the most significant difference (to me) between PCL
and PS was that in PCL the fonts weren't scalable. Also, you could only
have about 12 fonts per page, even if you had enough memory to DL more!
Ventura _can_ look at a page and say "I have to send a bitmap for this part
but for the text I can just call the font and print ASCII." The good aspect
of this is that for some things, PCL is much faster than PS. I once printed
a 60-page document that was _only_ 24-pt. Times in about 15 minutes.
Course, I also had a bitmapped page that took longer than that.
Now that the III series has scalable CG fonts, HP gets to give the
impression that they're incorporating what was previously omitted. However,
people don't realize that the "mixed" printing modes of the LJ need to be
part of the _application_. In the PC world, it is!
(which is not to say that I'm NOT still sold on PS.) 🙂
Malcolm
The PCL fonts are scalable (similar to CG fonts) but we have determined
that they do not offer the same features as PS fonts. If we supported PCL,
there would be several PgS features which would not work with HP printers.
Maybe when PCL 6 and 7 come out… 🙂
ML SL Tech
Mike,
The heck with PCL. Two thumbs down.
Malcolm
I use the HP Laserjet series III printer for various things including a
hobby newsletter. I use it with PageStream and I gotta be honest with you.
The output suits me just fine. Graphics and fonts (using pagestream) look
great, especially if you ue structured art. The resolution enhancement
seems to work even though I am using the standard HP LJII driver, or maybe
its just my imagination. I am just using the standard fonts that come with
PageStream 2.1, and haven't tried it with any of the other fonts that have
been offered here. If you find that you need postscript, the HP LJIII lets
you add it later via cartridge, but I haven't tried that yet so can't help
you there. If you are going to do full page printing you will need some
extra ram, but you don't have to buy the over-priced ram cartridges sold by
HP. There are third party hardware makers of these boards. I put an
additional 2 megs of memory in mine for less than $300, and I haven't had
any trouble with the printer running out of memory and prematurely
outputting a page. From what I have seen, I don't believe you can go wrong
with the LJ III.
JH
– via Whap!
I would agree … the LJIII is a great printer.
Whether you're using it as a PostScript printer or as a laser dot-matrix,
the quality is superb … and the resolution enhancement is there whether
you are using it in native/PCL mode, bitmapped-graphic mode or PostScript.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Jim,
Ah! But you use it with _PageStream_, which has its own printer drivers.
I'm wanting to hear from _ProPage_ users, who use the Prefs drivers.
ProPage and the Prefs LJ driver haven't gotten along well historically.
It's supposed to get proper results now with PP 2.1 but I'm hoping to see a
long-time user of the PP/LJ combo say, "OK, it's right now."
Yeah, the res enhancement should work for everything.
My intent is the Pacific Page PS cart and their memory card too. I should
be able to get that 2 megs for under $300 too – even here in expensive
Canada!
Malcolm
<<Ah! But you use it with _PageStream_, which has its own printer drivers.
I'm wanting to hear from _ProPage_ users, who use the Prefs drivers.
ProPage and the Prefs LJ driver haven't gotten along well historically.>>
All I can say is "This is just another excellent reason to go with
the best, PageStream.
JH
– via Whap!
Guess you chose to ignore my rather lenghtly reply because it didn't
confirm your contention that ProPage was to blame for the HP LJ "shift".
BTW, are you on the PageStream payroll or connected with the company in any
way other than as a satisfied user?
wmc
Wayne, I may not have seen that message. For some reason, it doesn't ring
a bell, but then I don't read every message. I have whap set to scan the
message headers and just read some messages. If you would, send me a copy
of the message and I will respond to it. Also, for what I do in DTP,
PageStream serves the purpose very well, and does some things that I like
that I happen to know ProPage doesn't do at all. And sorry if it sounded
like I worked for the PageStream people but I don't. In fact, the last
thing I heard was that they were making me pay 10% above list for anything
that I purchase directly from them :^). Hey, Soft Logik tech – I'm just
kidding about this, so don't get hyper or anything.
JH
– via Whap!
Jim,
I was just asking about the SL affiliation 'cause I had one of their beta
testers before who didn't identify himself as such and spent lots of time
shooting dowm ProPage when it turned out he neither owned it or used it. If
you own it and (attempted to) use it, I fugure you can publically put
bullets in it – you paid, its your right. The other way I fugire is just
not fair.
Anyway, as I recall the statement that I replied to someone about (sorry,
thought it was you) was that Pro Page was reposnile for the offset in
output when using an LJ. Actually it ain't (for once) Gold Disks fault –
You really need to point the finger at CBM. HP Printers cannot print to
every position on the physical page. There is a non-printable area that
boarders the whole page and is 1/6 – 1/3 inch depending on LJ model. Then
there is the fact that on top of that, the LJ can only address 8" across an
8 1/2" page. CBM preferences printer driver did not take this into
effect, hence the offset. Ands it shows in all programs that use the
preferences HP dirver, especially in grafix output mode. Gold Disk is
actually making up for this faux pas by providing output offsets in the
print requester.
wmc
Actually, I'm sorry if it sounded like I was in any way connected with
Soft-Logik. I'm not. I have used Pro Page and have used all of GD's DTP
products since the very beginning. Early on, their products were much more
stable than PageStream, but as far as I am concerned, PageStream has grown
up and is one of the best DTP packages for any computer in the price range
of the Amiga. I'm not bashing ProPage. I wouldn't do that. All I am
saying is that for my purposes, PageStream does the trick and is now my DTP
package of choice. Also, I know about the offset problem and the fact that
it will always be with ProPage until they start doing their own drivers
like SL has done. What I said was that the fact that PgS uses its own
drivers is another reason to buy it. BTW, the amount of area that the
HPLJIII can't print is 50 dots (I think this is pixels). It is a fairly
small area. That 50 dots is on all 4 sides of the paper. I have never
seen the offset problem with PageStream.
JH
– via Whap!
Jim,
Actually, I did a little more digging and found that ProPage does not
initialize margins before printing in dot matrix mode. I am changing my
mind. GD should, since they assume access to the entire page, explicitly
set margins at 0,0. The "gotya" on the HP printers is that the perf skip
off command causes the default margins to be applied, so they have to be
changed before the graphics print inititialization command is given.
I also found that CBM defaults the top margin to 1/2" and there is no way
in preferences around this. Even setting the page length to 66 for a 11"
page at 6 lpi will result in a top margin of 1/2" and a bottom margin of
1/2" with text area length of 60! I've got to pplay with my printer driver
to find a way around it. GD, if they were serious in supporting dot matrix
and lasers, would provide the page offset requester as part of the dot
matrix print requests as well as for postscript (which, using PacPage
cartridge is not needed as everything comes out without offsets).
I know what you mean about SL. I started with PageStream 1.0 after paying
for it one year in advance when it was called something else (I forget
what). Now I have it, ProPage, ProDraw, and Saxon. They are all good as
page oriented programs. Saxon has a little more orienteation toward
document level features, but I would not want to have to put a 1000 page,
mult-sectioned document together in any of the AMiga DTPs as yet. I expect
the next generation after this current wave of 2.1s and 2.2 releases will
see more document oriented stuff (auto numbers across seperate documents
which form sections of a larger doc – indexing and TOC generation for that
situation as well – that sort of thing.)
wmc
That is interesting info about CBM and the offset thing. I will say that I
have printed on the HP with PageStream all the way to the print limits of
the HP (to within 50 points of the edge) For that reason I am satisfied
with PageStream's performance in this regard. I will admit that it still
has a few quirks, but from what I have seen recently, I think it has moved
into first place in the Amiga DTP arena.
JH
– via Whap!
There is no offset problem with PgS because it doesn't use the prefs
driver&-}}i}ibut custom drivers written by SL. (Sorry for the line noi
ML SL Tech
I have a problem question which may or may not belong in this thread. I'm
currently finishing a manuscript of about 110,000 words using ProWrite. I
will soon have to print it out nicely, and would like it ]to look spiffy.
There are no pictures in it, just text; still, I'd like the output to look
as professional as possible. My setup is fairly basic: a stock 2000 with
a GVP 105 meg HD on a card containing 2 megs RAM (for a total of 3 megs).
My printer is a NEC Pinwriter P6.
Here's the question I have: I have access to a couple of laser
printers (A local firm rents 'em). What would the simplest way be for me
to get professional-looking results? Is it worth getting a DTP package
like PS or PP to set it up? I do like th look of the PostScript fonts like
Garamond, but for a print job like this without graphics,would it be worth
it to get involved with PostScript?
To summarize the question: what is the simplest and most idiot proof
method to print out a documents like I've described? I hear stories of
Postscript pages taking minutes per page; at a manuscript length of 400
pages I obviously couldn't spend that much time.
Any and all comments are welcome. Thanks
Lee
Lee,
Since you have already produced your document in ProWrite, you have a
rudimentary DTP system in effect. You need to get ProScript from the
ProWrite people. It originally was a stand-alone module for ProWrite- and
it produces excellent PostScript output. It will use Gold Disk's fonts
which you can get for a whole lot less than a full DTP package.
You could output your document in Palatino which is an elegant and
extremely readable type face, although it is getting a bit over-used used
since it is part of the resident fonts in most PostScript printers.
Getting a full DTP package is not a bad idea, though. They are not that
expensive, and are probably worth the effort for a 400 page document.
Though, again ProWrite is up to the task.
You should get 4 to 6 pages per minute for text-only output from something
like a LaserWriter II NT or equivalent.
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Rich, Thanks for the nuts & bolts advice, and I'm glad to hear that
ProWrite's ProScript supports fonts from Gold disk. Sounds like that's a
fairly straightforward way to go.
By the way, I notice the MD after your name–I have one of those too.How do
we Marcus Welby types end up spending hours in front of computer keyboards?
(In my case, I'm an ophthalmologist who has taken off a year from practice
to do what I've always wanted to do–writing something which I humbly refer
to as the Great American Novel. If there are any people out there
contemplating such a move I strongly reccommend it–taking a creative
sabbatical does wonders for the soul.)
Thanks again –Lee in Largo, Florida
Lee,
I closed my practice (psychiatry) in May to go back to my roots and become
involved in graphic arts again. I bought a commercial printing business in
Maui which is rapidly becoming very Amigatized re our electronic pre-press
work.
Re ProWrite and ProScript. It's not ProScript that can use Gold Disk's
Compugraphic font format, it is ProWrite itself. ProScript, then does an
excellent job of outputting ProWrite documents to a PostScript printer – or
to a disk file, should you want to take your work to a service bureau.
If you would like to send me a portion of your ProWrite file, I could
output it for you, to give you some idea of what is possible using that
program.
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Rich,
Thanks for the info and the offer; sounds like the way to go is to find
the Gold Disk fonts I like and set up my manuscript with 'em.
Will let you know if I run into problems–so far, though, I've found
ProWrite to be about as idiotproof a program as exists out there, and I
don't foresee any major stumbling blocks. (Famous last words.)
Here in Largo (suburb of St. Petersburg) the service bureaus are not
particularly enthusiastic about the Amiga–a tad frustrating, but at least
this way I end up learning more about the process…(I believe the proper
term for that thought process there is *rationalization*…)
—Lee 🙂
Rich–
The Advertising Art and Design depeartment at my community college was all
set to get some Amigas. There was a snafu in the ordering. Now they are
getting all sorts of advice "Get Macs….they are standard, software is
better, etc." But we are a poor school and we have an interest also in
video, multimedia, etc.
Could you explain why you decided to use Amigas in your DTP business? I am
being asked for advice by these folks, and I would like to give honest
answers. What factors led you to the decision? Why didn't you use Macs?
(Wouldn't it have been easier all around?)
I would also like to solicit other informed opinion on this question. Why
should a community college select Mac or Amiga (or maybe Windows) for an
Advertising Art and Design department focusing mostly on DTP and packaging
(but with presentations and desktop video as possible future directions)?
Thanks.
// Jim
Rich,
You no longer need ProScript. ProWrite 3.2 has a vast number of
improvements, including built-in PostScript support.
…Denny Atkin
Denny,
Yes, I know that ProWrite now has built in ProSctript. BTW, does ProWrite
yet have hyphenation capability?
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Rich,
ProWrite 3.0 and later support soft hyphens, but not fully automatic
hyphenation.
James Bayless
New Horizons Software, Inc.
Lee, I believe ProWrite supports (or has an add-on that supports)
PostScript output. Many people consider minimum professionally acceptable
quality as a 300 dpi laser.
W/o graphics you pages should not take long to print unless you are using a
software emulator a la pixelscript. Fot the document you mention, I'd gues
you are in the 200 – 400 page range? An Apple LaserWriter NTX, Texas
Instrument, Qume etc Postscritp native printer would do about 6 – 8 pages a
minute (but you'd have to fill a tray of paper once or twice :^} ) An HP
LJ IIP with a PacPage or Adobe/HP PostScript cartridge would give you about
4-6 pages per minute. The III with cartridge would be about 8 ppm. Stick
with one of the standard adobe built in fonts and downloading time will be
avoided. Helvetica or Times-roman are pretty standard (12point flush
justification is the "norm" for most documents I've dealt with).
Contrast rental expense with taking a postscript output file to a
Mac/PC/Amiga based copy/output service or sending it to them by modem for
output. Either way, I'd go for Postscript output if it is not too
expensive and didn't depend on a software emulator – then you would spend
minutes per page.
wmc
Wayne: thanks for the advice; I'm very much a babe in the woods when it
comes to this sort of thing. Will give it a try. –Lee in sunny Florida
Lee,
Upgrade to ProWrite 3.2. It has built-in PostScript support.
…Denny Atkin
Denny: thanks for the info; will call the ProWrite people Monday. –Lee
Lee:
BTW, our font conversion program, MIfont, creates standard Amiga bitmap
fonts and PPage metric files for use with PPage. Naturally, these fonts are
also usable with ProWrite. If you need a wide variety of fonts, you might
want to look into it.
Gary
– Mirror Image Prod. (416) 495-7469, via WHAP!
Gary:
Thanks for the info; will check it out.
–Lee in Florida
Malcolm,
The only "historical" problem with the PPage and LJ driver is this: The HP
logical page is not able to go from edge to edge. So the dot addressable
area is typically 50 dots from each edge. The printable page is different
yet. The CBM supplied LJ driver does not take this into account. It is
not PPages fault (don't worry, I wouldn't come to their defence if it were
not true – I have other 'beefs' with Gold Disk). The result is that the
output would be shiffted down and to the right as HP's 0,0 logical address
is probably at physical page dot position 75,150. GD, having decided to use
device independent printing (i.e. use the preferences printer) is not
responsible to fix the problem. CBM should supply a fix. I wrote my own
LJ driver to take this offset out.
GD, in 2.0, decided to give us a break by adding an x and y offset
requester to the print requester so that printers that offset from the
preferences specified position can be accomodated without having to shift
the page layout in the document itself.
BTW, if you look at your preferences margins, then copy an ascii file to
the printer, you will see the offset as well. That is because it is in the
driver.
wmc