CompuServe Thread

The Flood

11 messages in this thread
#161431From: – VisitorJan 4, 1995 3:47 AM
The Flood: A Historical Reality? Whether there was something like the Flood or not, this topic has been discussed for centuries. The result has been that serious scientists reject a global flood as historical reality. Two Austrian geologists have taken up an older hypothesis to explain a global flood. Their names are Prof. DSc Alexander Tollmann, geologist, professor in ordinary and President of the University Institute of Vienna on the chair of Eduard Suess, and his wife, DSc Edith Kristan-Tollmann, geologist and university lecturer of micro-paleontology. Their hypothesis says that a comet hit on earth about 10 000 years ago and caused a catastrophe well known as the Flood. The basis of their hypothesis is the large number of floodstories all over the world and some few (circumstantial) evidences. Their starting point is the large number of parallels between the results of research impacts in earthhistory (especially of the impact at the end of the Cretaceous period 65 million years ago) and the flood records of many peoples world-wide. Particularly the native Amercians report on stars fallen down from the sky, but also in Northern Europe, in the Near East, Persia, India, Australia, and on the Pacific islands, myths about such an event exist. Most records contain descriptions of earthquakes, fire disasters, volcanism, tidal waves or tsunamis of incredible height, darkness, winter or s sudden drop in temperature after a while, heavy downpours or above-average snowfalls and the extinction of most human beings and animals. All these are significant details of an impact. Because some records say that three, seven or nine "stars" (or "dragons" or "snakes") fell down and hit the earth, and because of the world-wide spreading of flood traditions, the authors assume seven big or major impacts of seven major fragments of one comet in the Oceans and some smaller impacts world-wide. They suppose that the comet broke apart passing the Jupiter because of its gravitation (compare to Shoemaker – Levy 9) or the perihel (compare to comet "West"). On account of their interpretation of the floodstories they assume impacts southeastern of Australia in the Tasmanian Sea (or i the southwestern Pacific Ocean), in the southern Chinese Sea, in the Indian Ocean, in the North Atlantic Ocean, in the Middle Atlantic Ocean southern of the Azores, in the eastern Pacific Ocean before the west coast of Middle America and in the southeastern Pacific Ocean west of Fireland. They consider the Marasko Crater (Poland), the Koefels impact (Tyrol, Austria), the Odessa Crater (Texas) and maybe the Merewether Crater (Labrador) as impacts of smaller fragments; all these impacts dated back to about 10 000 years before present. Evidence of such a catastrophe 10 000 years ago are fields of tektites in South Australia from Port Campbell (near to Melbourne) to Charlotte Waters and in Vietnam. There is no evidence of the impacts in the Oceans yet. But the knowledge of impacts in the Oceans isn't very large so far. Another evidence of one or more big impacts 10 000 years ago is a high acidity in ice core series. Should the acid be nitric acid, this would be an evidence of an impact in that time. Results of dendrochronological researchs supply evidence for a sudden rise of carbon – 14 about 10 000 years ago, which may be reduced to an impact in that time. (The exact date of the Flood is fixed by the authors with 7553 BC +/- a few years.) – Jens Grabenstein – References: Baker, G: Tektites. – Mem. nat. Mus. Victoria, 23 (p.1-313), Melbourne, 1959. Becker, B., Kromer, B. et al.: A stable-isotope tree-ring timescale of the Late Glacial/Holocene boundary. – Nature, 353 (p.647-649), London, 1991. Gill, E.D.: Age of Australite Fall. – J. geophys. Res., 75 (p.996-1002), New Haven/Conn., 1970. Hammer, C.U., Clausen, H.B. et al.: Greenland ice sheet evidence of post-glacial volcanism and its climatic impact. – Nature, 288 (p.230-235), London 1980. Izokh, E.P.: Relationship between Austral-Asian Tektic Strew-Field and Zhamanshin Crater. – [in:] Ch. Koeberl et al. [ed.]: Abstr. 52nd. Ann. Meet. Meteorit. Soc. Vienna (p.96), Vienna (Geochem. Inst. Univ. Vienna), 1989. Izokh, E.P.: Age-Paradox and the Origin of Tektites. – [in:] J. Konta [ed.]: Sec. int. Conf. natural Glasses (p.379-384), Prague (Charles Univ.), 1987 Johnson, J.E.: Geological Factors in Tektite Distribution, Northwestern South Australia – Quart. geol. Notes geol. Survey South Australia, 14 (p.5-6), Eastwood, S. A., 1965. Prasad, M. Sh. and Rao, P.S.: Tektides far and wide. – Natur, 347 (p.340), London, 1990. Surenian, R.: Scanning electron microscope study of shock features in pumice and gneis from Koefels (Tyrol, Austria). – Geol. Palaont. Mitt. Innsbruck, 1988. Tien, Ph. Cn. [ed.]: Geology of Camodia, Laos and Vietnam, 2 (p.103), Hanoi (Geol. Surv. Vietnam), 1990. Tollmann, E. and A.: The Flood came at 3 o'clock in the morning… – Austria Today, 1992 (4), p.40-47, Vienna 1992. Tollmann, E. and A.: The Flood impact. – Mitt. osterr. geol. Ges., 84 / 1991, p.1-63, Wien 1992. Tollmann, E. und A.: Und die Sintflut gab es doch. – Droemersche Verlagsanstalt Th. Knaur Nachf. Munchen, 1993.
#161459From: SyndesisJan 4, 1995 10:26 AM
What's the difference between "The Flood" and "a flood" or any "floods"?
#161804From: – VisitorJan 6, 1995 4:09 AM
"The Flood" refers to the Genesis Flood. "floods" is the plural of "a flood". If you want to get further information, you can request these via E-Mail! We hope we could help you. Bye Jens
#161805From: Howard DavisJan 6, 1995 5:42 AM
Jens, what kind of further info do you have available on e-mail? Info on the findings of the scientists? If so, I'd be interested too. Best regards, Howard Davis
#161808From: – VisitorJan 6, 1995 6:32 AM
This text has been placed in several forums. For further information on this topic, you can read the messages in the following forums: Dinosaur+ Forum Astronomy+ Forum Living History+ Forum Thank you Jens & Daniel
#162075From: Doug MitchellJan 7, 1995 8:03 PM
Hi, Jens– Welcome to the forum/section! An iron meteorite was found at Odessa, not quite what I would expect from a comet, though not impossible as far as I know. I do not know enough about the other sites to remark. Do you know what sort of meteorites were found there? Do they "fit together", so to speak? The commonness of flood myths is intriguing, but before any theory claims them as evidence, there must be something that links them to rule out obvious contenders. Any given location will have a "normal" major disaster sooner or later – perhaps the myths come from multiple "normal" disasters not all at the same time. The stories may be signposts leading to real evidence, but seem not to be evidence themselves. –Doug
#162153From: Greg LadenJan 8, 1995 10:31 AM
>> The commonness of flood myths is intriguing, but before any theory claims them as evidence, there must be something that links them to rule out obvious contenders. Any given location will have a "normal" major disaster sooner or later – perhaps the myths come from multiple "normal" disasters not all at the same time. The stories may be signposts leading to real evidence, but seem not to be evidence themselves. << I think you are right. Floods are very common, it is not surprising that they occur in many myths. Also, since 10,000 years age, many many (the majority?) of people have moved (as cultural lineages, if you will) from one place to another. So a flood myth found in one region may have been generated in another by the ancestors, more or less, of the same people. The key here is to demonstrate that all of these impacts have the same date, which is highly doubtful. Also, linguistic evidence should be able to tell something about when some of these myths started and how they spread. For example, all known language families probably diverged into their current diversity less than 10,000 years ago (there are probably exceptions). If the flood is "primordial" to these languages, then the word for flood should be similar in all languages. On the other hand, if flooding is primordial (and we can guess that it is) then one might get similar results! GTL Greg Laden Dept. of Anthropology Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138
#162353From: Jon WoolfJan 9, 1995 7:11 PM
Greg, >> I think you are right. Floods are very common, it is not surprising that they occur in many myths. Also, since 10,000 years age, many many (the majority?) of people have moved (as cultural lineages, if you will) from one place to another. So a flood myth found in one region may have been generated in another by the ancestors, more or less, of the same people. << Good point. In fact, some archaeologists seem to think this is exactly what happened in the region of ancient Sumeria circa about six thousand years ago. There's geological evidence of a massive flood in that area at that time. We also have a copy of a Sumerian flood legend that dates back at least four thousand years, and seems to be the ancestor of the Genesis flood account. Jon W.
#162358From: Greg LadenJan 9, 1995 8:06 PM
>> Good point. In fact, some archaeologists seem to think this is exactly what happened in the region of ancient Sumeria circa about six thousand years ago. There's geological evidence of a massive flood in that area at that time. We also have a copy of a Sumerian flood legend that dates back at least four thousand years, and seems to be the ancestor of the Genesis flood account. << Right! It seems very likely that a lot of the material in Genesis was, shall we say, borrowed (I'm sure they had the rights, but I don't know how much they paid<g>) from the Sumerians! Cheers, GTL
#162414From: Tom LeCompte-SysopJan 9, 1995 11:42 PM
Much of Genesis matches the mythology of the neighbors of the ancient Hebrews, with differences. One could argue (and many theologians do, although not fundamentalists) that Genesis is the Hebrew's *response* to the religous world views of their neighbors: i.e. while THEY believe THIS, we believe THAT. You can make a nice table: Neighbors Ancient Hebrews ————————————————————————— Polytheism Montheism Creation by Accident/Battle Creation by Choice Good and Evil elements Creation entirely good in creation …and so on… So it wouldn't at all surprise me if the writers of Genesis took a local flood myth, and used it to illustrate a point about their religon. (Which brings up the possible interpretation that Genesis can be _true_, without being _factual_, and the arguement that what's important about Genesis is not its accuracy as a history book, but the meaning behind the "history". But that probably is better discussed on the RELIGON forum) And, if you go with that interpretation, it's an interesting reflection on the cultures around the Hebrews, like the Sumerians: you get to see the Sumerians through the eyes on another culture as well.
#162432From: Greg LadenJan 10, 1995 7:56 AM
Very interesting points! There was a trend in sumerian religion from polytheism to monotheism, in the sense that they went from a bunch of roughly equivilant gods to having a pair of god-like folk (one male and one female) to just the male god. This corresponded with the increased emphasis on the king as being the personification of god, and thus a diety himself. Such a trend would be one possible result from the dichotomization you are talking about, if the hebrew (or proto-hebrew) version was picking up interest and momentum! Cheer, GTL Greg Laden Dept. of Anthropology Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138