The Flood
11 messages in this thread
The Flood: A Historical Reality?
Whether there was something like the Flood or not, this topic has been
discussed for centuries.
The result has been that serious scientists reject a global flood as historical
reality.
Two Austrian geologists have taken up an older hypothesis to explain a global
flood. Their names are Prof. DSc Alexander Tollmann, geologist, professor in
ordinary and President of the University Institute of Vienna on the chair of
Eduard Suess, and his wife, DSc Edith Kristan-Tollmann, geologist and
university lecturer of micro-paleontology.
Their hypothesis says that a comet hit on earth about 10 000 years ago and
caused a catastrophe well known as the Flood.
The basis of their hypothesis is the large number of floodstories all over the
world and some few (circumstantial) evidences.
Their starting point is the large number of parallels between the results of
research impacts in earthhistory (especially of the impact at the end of the
Cretaceous period 65 million years ago) and the flood records of many peoples
world-wide. Particularly the native Amercians report on stars fallen down from
the sky, but also in Northern Europe, in the Near East, Persia, India,
Australia, and on the Pacific islands, myths about such an event exist.
Most records contain descriptions of earthquakes, fire disasters, volcanism,
tidal waves or tsunamis of incredible height, darkness, winter or s sudden drop
in temperature after a while, heavy downpours or above-average snowfalls and
the extinction of most human beings and animals. All these are significant
details of an impact. Because some records say that three, seven or nine
"stars" (or "dragons" or "snakes") fell down and hit the earth, and because of
the world-wide spreading of flood traditions, the authors assume seven big or
major impacts of seven major fragments of one comet in the Oceans and some
smaller impacts world-wide. They suppose that the comet broke apart passing the
Jupiter because of its gravitation (compare to Shoemaker – Levy 9) or the
perihel (compare to comet "West"). On account of their interpretation of the
floodstories they assume impacts southeastern of Australia in the Tasmanian Sea
(or i the southwestern Pacific Ocean), in the southern Chinese Sea, in the
Indian Ocean, in the North Atlantic Ocean, in the Middle Atlantic Ocean
southern of the Azores, in the eastern Pacific Ocean before the west coast of
Middle America and in the southeastern Pacific Ocean west of Fireland. They
consider the Marasko Crater (Poland), the Koefels impact (Tyrol, Austria), the
Odessa Crater (Texas) and maybe the Merewether Crater (Labrador) as impacts of
smaller fragments; all these impacts dated back to about 10 000 years before
present.
Evidence of such a catastrophe 10 000 years ago are fields of tektites in South
Australia from Port Campbell (near to Melbourne) to Charlotte Waters and in
Vietnam. There is no evidence of the impacts in the Oceans yet. But the
knowledge of impacts in the Oceans isn't very large so far.
Another evidence of one or more big impacts 10 000 years ago is a high acidity
in ice core series. Should the acid be nitric acid, this would be an evidence
of an impact in that time.
Results of dendrochronological researchs supply evidence for a sudden rise of
carbon – 14 about 10 000 years ago, which may be reduced to an impact in that
time. (The exact date of the Flood is fixed by the authors with 7553 BC +/- a
few years.)
– Jens Grabenstein –
References:
Baker, G: Tektites. – Mem. nat. Mus. Victoria, 23 (p.1-313), Melbourne, 1959.
Becker, B., Kromer, B. et al.: A stable-isotope tree-ring timescale of the Late
Glacial/Holocene boundary. – Nature, 353 (p.647-649), London, 1991.
Gill, E.D.: Age of Australite Fall. – J. geophys. Res., 75 (p.996-1002), New
Haven/Conn., 1970.
Hammer, C.U., Clausen, H.B. et al.: Greenland ice sheet evidence of
post-glacial volcanism and its climatic impact. – Nature, 288 (p.230-235),
London 1980.
Izokh, E.P.: Relationship between Austral-Asian Tektic Strew-Field and
Zhamanshin Crater. – [in:] Ch. Koeberl et al. [ed.]: Abstr. 52nd. Ann. Meet.
Meteorit. Soc. Vienna (p.96), Vienna (Geochem. Inst. Univ. Vienna), 1989.
Izokh, E.P.: Age-Paradox and the Origin of Tektites. – [in:] J. Konta [ed.]:
Sec. int. Conf. natural Glasses (p.379-384), Prague (Charles Univ.), 1987
Johnson, J.E.: Geological Factors in Tektite Distribution, Northwestern South
Australia – Quart. geol. Notes geol. Survey South Australia, 14 (p.5-6),
Eastwood, S. A., 1965.
Prasad, M. Sh. and Rao, P.S.: Tektides far and wide. – Natur, 347 (p.340),
London, 1990.
Surenian, R.: Scanning electron microscope study of shock features in pumice
and gneis from Koefels (Tyrol, Austria). – Geol. Palaont. Mitt. Innsbruck,
1988.
Tien, Ph. Cn. [ed.]: Geology of Camodia, Laos and Vietnam, 2 (p.103), Hanoi
(Geol. Surv. Vietnam), 1990.
Tollmann, E. and A.: The Flood came at 3 o'clock in the morning… – Austria
Today, 1992 (4), p.40-47, Vienna 1992.
Tollmann, E. and A.: The Flood impact. – Mitt. osterr. geol. Ges., 84 / 1991,
p.1-63, Wien 1992.
Tollmann, E. und A.: Und die Sintflut gab es doch. – Droemersche Verlagsanstalt
Th. Knaur Nachf. Munchen, 1993.
What's the difference between "The Flood" and "a flood" or any "floods"?
"The Flood" refers to the Genesis Flood.
"floods" is the plural of "a flood".
If you want to get further information, you can request these via E-Mail!
We hope we could help you.
Bye
Jens
Jens, what kind of further info do you have available on e-mail? Info on the
findings of the scientists? If so, I'd be interested too.
Best regards, Howard Davis
Hi, Jens–
Welcome to the forum/section!
An iron meteorite was found at Odessa, not quite what I would expect from a
comet, though not impossible as far as I know. I do not know enough about the
other sites to remark. Do you know what sort of meteorites were found there?
Do they "fit together", so to speak?
The commonness of flood myths is intriguing, but before any theory claims them
as evidence, there must be something that links them to rule out obvious
contenders. Any given location will have a "normal" major disaster sooner or
later – perhaps the myths come from multiple "normal" disasters not all at the
same time. The stories may be signposts leading to real evidence, but seem not
to be evidence themselves.
–Doug
>> The commonness of flood myths is intriguing, but before any theory claims
them as evidence, there must be something that links them to rule out obvious
contenders. Any given location will have a "normal" major disaster sooner or
later – perhaps the myths come from multiple "normal" disasters not all at the
same time. The stories may be signposts leading to real evidence, but seem not
to be evidence themselves. <<
I think you are right. Floods are very common, it is not surprising that they
occur in many myths. Also, since 10,000 years age, many many (the majority?)
of people have moved (as cultural lineages, if you will) from one place to
another. So a flood myth found in one region may have been generated in
another by the ancestors, more or less, of the same people.
The key here is to demonstrate that all of these impacts have the same date,
which is highly doubtful. Also, linguistic evidence should be able to tell
something about when some of these myths started and how they spread. For
example, all known language families probably diverged into their current
diversity less than 10,000 years ago (there are probably exceptions). If the
flood is "primordial" to these languages, then the word for flood should be
similar in all languages. On the other hand, if flooding is primordial (and
we can guess that it is) then one might get similar results!
GTL
Greg Laden
Dept. of Anthropology
Harvard University
Cambridge MA 02138
Greg,
>> I think you are right. Floods are very common, it is not surprising that
they occur in many myths. Also, since 10,000 years age, many many (the
majority?) of people have moved (as cultural lineages, if you will) from one
place to another. So a flood myth found in one region may have been generated
in another by the ancestors, more or less, of the same people. <<
Good point. In fact, some archaeologists seem to think this is exactly what
happened in the region of ancient Sumeria circa about six thousand years ago.
There's geological evidence of a massive flood in that area at that time. We
also have a copy of a Sumerian flood legend that dates back at least four
thousand years, and seems to be the ancestor of the Genesis flood account.
Jon W.
>> Good point. In fact, some archaeologists seem to think this is exactly
what happened in the region of ancient Sumeria circa about six thousand years
ago. There's geological evidence of a massive flood in that area at that time.
We also have a copy of a Sumerian flood legend that dates back at least four
thousand years, and seems to be the ancestor of the Genesis flood account. <<
Right! It seems very likely that a lot of the material in Genesis was, shall
we say, borrowed (I'm sure they had the rights, but I don't know how much they
paid<g>) from the Sumerians!
Cheers,
GTL
Much of Genesis matches the mythology of the neighbors of the ancient Hebrews,
with differences. One could argue (and many theologians do, although not
fundamentalists) that Genesis is the Hebrew's *response* to the religous world
views of their neighbors: i.e. while THEY believe THIS, we believe THAT. You
can make a nice table:
Neighbors Ancient Hebrews
—————————————————————————
Polytheism Montheism
Creation by Accident/Battle Creation by Choice
Good and Evil elements Creation entirely good
in creation
…and so on…
So it wouldn't at all surprise me if the writers of Genesis took a local flood
myth, and used it to illustrate a point about their religon. (Which brings up
the possible interpretation that Genesis can be _true_, without being
_factual_, and the arguement that what's important about Genesis is not its
accuracy as a history book, but the meaning behind the "history". But that
probably is better discussed on the RELIGON forum) And, if you go with that
interpretation, it's an interesting reflection on the cultures around the
Hebrews, like the Sumerians: you get to see the Sumerians through the eyes on
another culture as well.
Very interesting points!
There was a trend in sumerian religion from polytheism to monotheism, in the
sense that they went from a bunch of roughly equivilant gods to having a pair
of god-like folk (one male and one female) to just the male god. This
corresponded with the increased emphasis on the king as being the
personification of god, and thus a diety himself.
Such a trend would be one possible result from the dichotomization you are
talking about, if the hebrew (or proto-hebrew) version was picking up interest
and momentum!
Cheer,
GTL
Greg Laden
Dept. of Anthropology
Harvard University
Cambridge MA 02138