#Alternative 3D apps
42 messages in this thread
I am looking for some input from anyone who cares to offer their
opinion. I am very eager to experiment with 3D drawings and
animation. However, the price tag of 3D Studio prevents me from
doing this. I have seen a few other applications that seem to offer
similar features, at prices substantially less than 3D. Now I'm sure
3D is worth every penny it costs, but for someone just interested in
dabbling it is prohibitive. Two of the more interesting programs I
have seen are Playmation from Will Vinton, and Imagine from Impulse.
Does anyone have any experience with these products? Are they worth
the time and money? Are there any other programs anyone would care
to recommend. Just to give you an idea of the type of money I would
be willing to spend, I have seen Playmation for $350, and the list
price for Imagine is $495! Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
there is a very good magazine called 3D Artist, that monthly reviews a
wide range of 3D programs and does great compare and contrast..the
magazine only costs about $22.00 or $25.00 a year.
Editor is Bill Allen and a thesaurus of 3D programs:505-982-3532 OR
po box 4787, Santa Fe NM 87502
you might like it…Alan Inglesias previews 3DS this month..Bill
reviews Macro Model which alot of people are raving about….
Thanks, I'll definetly get a copy, if not a subscription to 3D Artist.
As I said, this is something I am very intrigued by. I'm not much of
a game player, but I do have a fairly hefty system that can handle
anything I want to throw at it. Since I build custom systems I am
somewhat of a hardware junky, and have put together a pretty high end
machine. I am very interested in seeing what is fact, and what is
fluff, as far as 3D goes. Thanks again.
I agree. For dabbling, 3ds is a little high, unless you are a wealthy
dabbler <g>. I make my living from 3ds, and so I find the
price/performance fantastic, especially compared to the alternative
production orientated packages (Electric Image, Topaz, Wavefront,
Softimage etc).
I don't have Playmation, but it looks pretty good for "toon" type
stuff. For architecture and engineering look elsewhere. Stratavision
3d PC version might be worth a look, and also Renderize. Vistapro is
an affordable fly-by program with fractal landscapes (trees,
mountains, lakes etc) with nice output. I suggest you buy one from
someone who will allow you a 30-day trial. This will allow you long
enough to do the tutorials (if supplied) and see if it does what you
want.
I think I've heard/read that Playmation will reappear as Promation.
You've probably also heard that Microsoft bought this product. You
might want to GO GRAPHDEV and see what's going on there — look for
the POV ray-tracing forum.
I had heard about the Microsoft/Playmation acquisition. Don't know
what it means though…
Me neither! I'm not sure what MSoft actually bought – and I _think_
Will Vinton has his own enterprise, too. The reference to
'Promation' was recent so maybe there'll be an announcement soon.
If Microsoft decides to do something with Playmation I may be in luck.
Since I am a computer reseller, I build custom systems, I am eligible
for Microsofts promotional offerings. They have a "Not For Resale"
deal were you can get just about everything they publish at
ridiculous prices. I have stocked my CD collection with everything
Microsoft has. An example of the cost, I paid $30 for Encarta! Not
bad. Once they start selling Playmation I should be able to pick it
up for around $20 or $30. A real no-brainer there.
Thanks for the advice. Just to show you what a neophyte I am when it
comes to 3D, what exactly is Animatrix? I am very impressed by the
response I received here. Once I finally make the move and start
doing some animation work I can tell I won't be at a lost for a good
source of information.
Animatrix is my company name. Whenever somebody puts [] around
something, it tends to be the company they work for. Animatrix is
just the name I gave my little enterprise. Basically, I'm a freelance
animator and graphic artist based in South Orange County, CA.
Not to sound crase, but I knew it was the name of a company, if you
notice my name is also followed by [] with MIND Compute Consultants
contained within, or at least a abbreviated version of it. MIND is
also my own company. I build custom computers systems and sell
peripherals. Looking forward to joining the 3D threads.
I'm sure you'll learn a lot from following threads on this forum. I
came on this forum 2.5 years ago as a neophyte and learned a great
deal here. Now I answer a lot of questions, but I'm still learning.
Mark – The old addage "you get what you pay for" still applies. In
terms of price/performance IMHO you get more than you pay for with
3DS. For the features of say Imagine, and you wanted to price 3DS, in
relative terms you would pay approximately $10,000. I realise prices
have come down on Animation software but realistically it could have
been priced in that range, and the professionals in the group would
have bought it because there is nothing else that even comes close.
With that caveat, I would suggest Will Vinton's Playmation for your
consideration. If you want to know the agony of animation, and
complete your rights of passage as an animator, I would recommend
Imagine. Then when you get tired, bored, or addicted, you will find
the $3000 price tag of 3DS a steal, and to keep your sanity you will
mortgage you house (if you have one). Caution: Animation may be
hazardous to your sanity and financial well being. If you don't have
an addictive personality, you probably won't be a good animator. If
this hasn't scared you away, chances are you'll end up crazy like the
rest of us but happy 🙂 -JE
how true! My house is up for sale now. I'm downsizing my residence so
I can upsize my animation (3ds) fetish. I just need more
paraphanalia…..<dribble>,<gurgle> "Hey, Mister! Can you spare some
change? I need a new harddrive. No? OK, how about enough for an IPAS
routine then?"
"Animator. Will work for Chips. – Three hungry computers to support."
Think it'll work? -JE
probably won't work – the public needs to be educated to our plight
<g>.
Yeah, you're probably right, there more likely to set up clinics for
our rehabilitation back into main stream society. <G> (Now isn't that
a frightening thought!)
mainstream society?! No way, too boring <g>.
But, hey! Poor people who need livers and hearts and things can get
press coverage and then all the moms and pops across the country take
pity and send cash to buy body parts. Maybe we could do the same kind
of thing!?!?! Think of it! "Just into our newsroom. An animator on
the west coast has been forced to sell his home to maintain parity
with the newest and best workstation renderers. Call the following
number to make donations of money or DRAM. All assistance that can be
mustered will go to a worthy cause. And next: Bill and Hillary create
a virtual Senate for quick passage of reform packages… Right after
this message."
I like your press release 🙂 Please feel free to broadcast it on all
media channels <g>.
MF: ….<dribble>,<gurgle> "Hey, Mister! Can you spare some change? I
need a new harddrive. No? OK, how about enough for an IPAS routine
then?"
DM: I heard someone at Autodesk U say "I used to be a user, but I
became a dealer to support my habits…"
David,
your quote was probably Greg Pyros <g,d&r>.
>> your quote was probably Greg Pyros <g,d& r>.
My style, but I didn't make it to AU, we did the Sony show that week. Next!
Greg
"I used to be a user, but I became a dealer to support my habits …"
was from the one and only Phil Kreiker. Whatta cool guy … <g>
Unfortunately, or fortunately it all depends on your point of view, I
have a very severe problem. I am hopelessly addicted to bleeding edge
technology. I started my own custom computer business just so I
would have an excuse to feed my habit. After all, I can't sell what
I haven't tried! So once I start on 3D I guess my next stop will be
the poor house!
Since an upgrade to 3D has just been released, for a great price of
$495, is ther anyone out here who would like to have their upgrade
bought for them? If this is not illegal I would be happy to purchase
the upgrade for them, in exchange for their old copy of 3D. What od
you think? Is this possible.
Thanks for your advice. I am looking forward to joining the ranks of
the demented animator!
Mark – For the upgrade it doesn't quite work that way. First you have
to become a registered Autodesk Dealer, which has a few strings
attached and for good reason. Its not really like any other kind of
dealership that I know of in the software world. There are people on
the forum who are better qualified to let you know what this entails.
Second, 3DS has a hardware protection block. The upgrade is a
software only upgrade, (you don't get a new block) so the previous
release would be useless to you. There are several people who have
gone the dealership route for just the reasons you have mentioned.
Its a crowded market. There are a select few who are very successful
at it because they have that rare combination of being good
businessmen as well as visionary. Being visionary is important
because it is such a rapidly changing environment, you have to be
able to change just like in the stock market.
My recommendation – Buy Playmation with the caveat that the money you
spend on it could have gone to saving for 3DS. As you learn more
about 3DS's capabilities, you're going to want it. But maybe from
Playmation you'll learn wether it is something you really want to get
into. Animation requires a tremendous amount of work, (although it
doesn't seem like work), knowledge, experience and practice, and for
some of us becomes a lifelong pursuit. Hope this has been of some
help. -JE P.S. I don't think we're demented exactly, just a little
crazy 🙂
Thanks for the insight. I meant demented in the nicest way.
>Two of the more interesting programs I have seen are Playmation from Will
>Vinton, and Imagine from Impulse.
Both of these programs originated on the Amiga but I can only
recommend one, Imagine. They are about to release version 3.0 at the
end of the month and it will have LOTS of features. Impulse's phone
# 1-800-328-0184 I am not a IBM user so I couldn't suggest any other
3D package.
Thanks a lot for your input. I saw an ad for Imagine in Desktop
Video, along with severalexamples of what can be done with it in the
"Digital Gallery". If you haven't seen this magazine it is pretty
decent. Lots of reviews, not much fluff. The "Digital Gallery" is a
section where they showcase works done by various 3D artists.
Thanks again, look forward to getting started.
I'd like to add this — I bought Playmation, and that was how I ended
up with 3DStudio. Once I tried Playmation I was hooked on 3D
animations, but realized I needed something that wouldn't take the
rest of my life (for example — a typical frame in Playmation that
took 60 minutes to render takes less than 45 seconds in 3DStudio, and
with MUCH better quality — not even a comparison). I consider the
money I spent for anything less than 3DStudio to be a total waste, so
I guess it just depends on how much money you want to waste.
But once again, I warn you — this stuff is addictive. If you like
3D animations, you won't be able to rest until you have 3DStudio, and
you'll figure out ways you can hock your car, house, and charge up
your VISA to the max until you can get it. If you don't think you're
going to like 3D animations, then I guess any of the lower end
packages will satisfy you (oh, I guess if all you want to do are 3D
stills then you'd be okay — I can't imagine waiting weeks for a
animation to finish, though, as I know some people with lower end
products do).
I own Playmation and have (temporarily, I think) abandoned it due to
the very unintuitive method it *must* use to save its files. Every
kind of piece goes into a different directory for reasons which
probably made sense to someone when they thought of it, but which
makes no sense to me. Negotiating back and forth thru all those
directory trees is a pain in the keester. Also, the documentation is
not very good. It introduces all the functions, OK, but always uses
supplied base files. There's no place where you are led from zero to
animation in a sequential manner. I'm not stupid and my reading skills
are pretty good, but I found it difficult, at best, to figure out how
to make and render something with a surface of my choice. (Actually I
gave up before I got to that point.) FWIW. I have no experience with
Imagine…
Thanks for the input. Are you interested in umloading Playmation?
Perhaps I can help you recoup some of your expenses.
Playmation's method of saving files makes sense for character-based,
re-usable characters and choreography. Methods of separable
complexity mixed with very stupid file systems leads to fixed
directory structures, not unlike what's in 3DS for that matter.
Playmation's method reflects something from the Amiga world known as
the "logical assignment." You see this in the PROJECTS.HSH file. In
AmigaDOS, you say "assign FONTS: dh1:fonts" and every program can
open a file called "fonts:foo" and it's redirected to the place
defined earlier. Their scheme makes it easy to use the same bipedal
walking motion in several different characters, for example.
I do realize that the reason behind segregating everything was to
make movements, etc. available to more than one model/animation. I
simply find the method used in Playmation *highly* unwieldly. In DOS
land, changing file extensions usually suffices, and I think would
have been much more comprehensible than stuffing everything into
seperate areas. OR, if Playmation was smart enough to go out and find
all the pieces without being told every time the software is opened.
OTOH, if I just worked with it more, I might find it easier to deal
with. I did *not* find 3DS's method of organization confusing at any
point. I can't really explain why…
I certainly hope the world moves beyond lame methods like filename
extensions. WinNT's HPFS at least has longer filenames, and the Mac
has long names plus a database of file "types", helping applications
track the files they've actually created.
I guess I agree that things ought to move beyond file extensions. They're quite
primitive. The Mac Desktop file, though, while a good concept, is not the
direction I want to see things go. The whole desktop database system, including
the Volume Bit Map and Volume Information Block get corrupted WAY too easily.
80% of the fixes I have to make to Macs include unscrambling those files.
Comperable problems in DOS are *very* infrequent, like once every 18 months or
so, if that.
Most PC users want to torture the inventor of DOS. We just want to
ask him a few questions.
Aren't computers supposed to make life simpler?
Do you get royalties from all those how to use DOS books?
Why backslashes?
Why, after six revisions, hasn't DOS been simplified?
Do all your sentences start with C:?
Did it ever occur to you that normal people might use DOS?
Was your father a dentist, or do you…?
How many times have you seen the words "Bad command"?
Is your entire vocabulary limited to words of eight characters or less?
How much money do you think corporate America has wasted on DOS training?
Did DOS actually make sense to you, or did you just run out of time?
(From a 1990 ad for DOS Partner from EasySoft.)
John – Very hysterical list of questions!
Awsome questions. I guess advertising types aren't all bad after all…
add to that list:
"Do you guys still use 8086's or do you just like the number '640'?!"
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
I purchased Imagine for IBM from a friend and found it completly
frustating! $250. bucks down the drain! Unless you are familar with
Amiga OS I wouldn't suggest it. The manual for 2.0 is the Amiga
manual and reads like a cheap detective novel. I understand the
manual and the program are due for a upgrade which should help…
BTW Check around If you are lucky you might be able to get a used
copy. I got mine for $700. and would have eventually paid top dollar
anyway. Very Lucky!
Steven,
Thanks for the info.
<<BTW Check around If you are lucky you might be able to get a used
copy. I got mine for $700. and would have eventually paid top dollar
anyway. Very Lucky!>>
I assume you are referring to 3DS? Let it be known to all who read
this message. If you want to get rid of a used copy of 3DS I would
be very interested. Dongle and all.
The latest issue of 3D Artist has a classified add for a "used" copy
of 3DSr2.01a for sale for only 1000$, Mark. I'm assuming it is
upgradable. The phone number is 319.388.0662, if it's not already
snapped up yet…
-Alan Iglesias