#Best Video Solution
18 messages in this thread
Here I am again,
1. First some questions about the DPS,
Does rendering go straight to that drive in JPEG format, from 3DS R3 or do you
have to create TGA's first on your normal hardrive (hope not mine is only
500MB) and use a different program to compile the JPEG movie on the included
hard disk. What about 3DS r2.01, as release 3 is not yet available overhere.
Would it be possible to get a higher capacity harddrive with (SCSI).
Is the included harddisk external or internal or are both available, and is
only usable for the DPS PAR or can you use as any other hard disk you've got on
board.
I would be able to use a high end consumer JVC SVHS recorder I have at home
with it, I can even add sound seperatly. But If I could make the recording from
within windows I would be able to put sound and images at once together on my
recorder through connection between my CD-ROM through my PC sound card and from
there to the SVHS recorder. Would this be possible.
When you speak about getting final output going to BetaSP do you deliver a
BetaSP tape to your clients, or do you do it to get better quality in then
going back to SVHS then when you would go through the card directly to SVHS. I
ask this because most of my clients are and will be other architects who want
to give a video tape mostly VHS to there clients. So I will have to be able
mostly to go only SVHS or VHS, Beta would not really be necessary at first I
think although if quality is better I could ask an extra charge for going
through Beta.
Sorry if I'm getting lenghty but I want to ask everything at once.
Is the DPS card also a display card or does it stand completly seperate from my
display cards?? Could it conflict say with my SPEA graphics board??
In one of the messages I read on the forum the following is mentioned "it is
recorded in 4:2:2 component" what does that mean??
The video capture TBC IV available with the DPS PAR, in what format is it
captured, could this capturing be used as a background
Jesus I did not know I could ask so many questions at once.
2.The exabyte option
I believe this is a tape streamer, right or not. This means you put your TGA's
on the tape, get them to a service bureau and they process them through another
program (Abekas as I think I read) that puts them as a movie on Video Tape, is
this so.
I'm planning to buy a Sony MO drive 128MB disks, instead of Tapestreamers
because I can use just as another harddisk through an SCSI connection. I could
do the same as with tape and get to a bureau.
2. Framebuffer solution
Does frame buffer solution rendering go directly to the vtr or are the TGA
first saved on disk??
Are the VTR controllers on a separate board next to the framebuffer.
Does the framebuffer only do what it says, keep the picture in buffer memory
until it is ready to give through to the VTR, or does it also function as
display device for your PC monitor??
What is Quickpass or Fastpass??
Is anyone from Sony on the forum, if so could they tell me what the European
equivalents are for the SVO-9600 (also price).
That is about ALL I WANT TO KNOW.
BTW we should give a price every month to the best provided support on 3DS in
this forum, from a non-commercial person.
I'll vote for you for this month Martin!!!
So start typing your replies everyone
Christophe,
Christophe,
wow, you'll have to give me some time to answer that enormous list of
questions. I should have compiled the answers (off-line) by the end of the
week-end.
You want me to compile all you typed and said and upload as file in
the What's New Library, Christophe,
Christophe,
1. You can render directly to the DPS hard drive OR you could render
to your normal hardrive and copy the .tga files to the DPS hardrive
later. You might want to do it later because of video post operations
(post processing etc). The DPS will work with any version of 3ds. You
can only use the drives which DPS approves (for speed reasons). At
the moment that is one 500mb IDE and one 1.3gb IDE, I believe. The
drive is mounted internaly only, and is connected direct to the DPS
card. The DPS is video only and uses its own file format which is
proprietary and a highly modified version of motion JPEG. I don't
think it is possible to interleave or include sound while you are
recording. It would probably have to be added later. Audio dubbing?
I usually record to betaSP because my animation is often only a small
part of the total presentation. A complete presentation often
includes animation, live video, music, voice etc. so it needs to be
edited. The editing is done at betaSP (or D2) to preserve the quality
throughout the editing process and through several generations. If no
editing was necessary then it would be OK to make a first generation
VHS or SVHS tape.
>> Is the DPS card also a display card or does it stand completly
seperate from my display cards?? >>
It is completely seperate and only outputs a TV (NTSC or PAL) signal.
>>>> Is the DPS card also a display card or does it stand completly seperate
>>>> from my display cards??
>> It is completely seperate and only outputs a TV (NTSC or PAL) signal.
Which makes it a display card in my book! <g>
Greg Pyros
Christophe <continued>
>> Are the VTR controllers on a separate board next to the framebuffer>>
a vtr controller can be a seperate board, like the Diaquest DQ422+ or
Videomedia's Animax, or it can just be a software program and a serial
cable, like SoftVTR. I, personally, like the Diaquest but it is very
expensive and I have always used _other_ people's Diaquests – I
haven't bought one <g>.
>> Does the framebuffer only do what it says, keep the picture in
buffer memory until it is ready to give through to the VTR, or does
it also function as display device for your PC monitor?? >>
The framebuffer just holds the image in VRAM, ready for you to record.
It is a seperate display from your main (vga or computer) display.
Sometimes it is possible to overlay vga graphics on the framebuffer
using the vga pass-through connector. Usually, you would have a 2
monitor setup. 1 monitor for your vga display and 1 monitor or TV for
your frambuffer display. The framebuffer is usually, but not always,
at a frequency for NTSC or PAL for recording.
>> What is Quickpass or Fastpass?? >>
This is a method that the vtr controller companies have developed to
speed up frame-by-frame output to tape. Normally, each frame would
need a 5 second preroll of the tape, a postroll, and a rewind of the
vtr – very slow. Quickpass/fastpass just allows more than one frame
(up to 10 frames per pass) to be output in each pass, or preroll
sequence. For example, the first pass of a 300 frame sequence might
be frames 0, 60, 120, 180, 240, 300. The second pass would be 1, 61,
121, 181, 241 etc. This just makes it a lot faster and causes less
wear and tear on the vtr.
I know nothing about model numbers of European (PAL) versions of
vtr's. Sorry 🙁
>> BTW we should give a price every month to the best provided support
on 3DS in this forum, from a non-commercial person. I'll vote for you
for this month Martin!!! >>
That's very nice, but just send me a 6-pack of Stella Artois and I'll
be a happy man <g>. I had a lot of fun in Belguim. I went through
Belguim many times going to Germany – from Oostende to Koln, Germany
through Bruges and Bruxelles in the early 80's (what fun). Everybody
was always on strike (industrial disputes), but the trains and the
beer were great. Are you a French speaker or the other language
(forgot what it's called).
I need some sleep now after answering your questions – it's 2:40am
here in Southern California <g>.
Thanks for the answers so far, I still have a couple of questions but
I'll keep them for next week. Have No time now.
thanks for the break <G>. I need a rest from answering questions on
the DPS PAR. I saw another yesterday in an Amiga, and I wanted it so
bad, I could almost taste it….
Take your break, you've earned it. BTW I speak the language you
forgot: dutch not french. I live Bruges the Flanders region where
dutch is spoken. The biggest joke on what you said about Belgium and
the strikes, is that a railway strike is going on at the moment even
international trains are not driving, and we get no post at the
moment to, another strike??? Sometimes one gets so angry at the trade
Unions overhere, they have to much influence. If you want Stella
Artois, I'll be glad to send one pack, give your address over E-mail.
Christophe,
I thought the 2 major languages in Belguim were French and Flemish(?).
I guess there's Dutch, too. I speak French, German and a little
Spanish. Your command of written English language is remarkably good
– are you using a word processor to check your spelling and grammar
with <g>. In fact it is better than some of the native English
speakers on here <g,d&r>.
Trade unions do have too much power in Belguim and England, although
less than they used to in England. However, in America it has gone
too far the opposite way and employees have very little actual
protection from abusive employers in small companies – particularly
unfair dismissal, unpaid overtime and very poor vacation (1 to 2
weeks typical, instead of 4-5 in most of Europe) etc. You have to go
to court and sue to do anything here and most people can't afford
that. I work for myself because I am too rebellious to work in most
American corporations.
I'd love a pack of Stella Artois. My last Stella, in Belguim at least,
was on the night train from Oostende to Bruxelles (Ostend to
Brussels). Ah, good memories… I've covered most of Western Europe
and some of North Africa by train as a student with an "Interail"
ticket.
>> in America it has gone too far the opposite way and employees have very
>> little actual protection from abusive employers in small companies –
>> particularly unfair dismissal, unpaid overtime…
Actually, Martin, the way America works is that any employee can take
an employer before the Labor Board for anything they want with no
expense whatsoever. Those two cases you commented on especially! It
is the employers who are on the short side of the stick here for
anyone who knows their 'rights'.
As an employer, I am constantly made aware of these things and must
keep up with the way the laws are structured here. The employers are
always guilty until proven innocent, a structure that does not make
having your own business fun at all.
If you want to see how it works, just hire a few people, you'll be
amazed at how soon you learn to hate both the government intervention
and the unions!
I've had some personal experience with those 2 issues, and I
completely disagree about who has the advantage, at least when
compared to other major industrialized nations.
Here's a prime example. My wife was clearly (in our opinion) fired
unfairly a couple of years ago, and we had no reasonable recourse.
After 10 years of loyal service to a company and the receipt of a
glowing review, it was necessary to shut down her department. Fine,
no problem. They gave her an OK, but lesser job in another department
(also fine) but it soon became clear she was superfluous to
requirements (department losing money), and they fabricated a case
against her to support her firing. They gave her a bad performance
review, and 30 days to improve. She became sick during the 30 days
and was at home intending to return to work, but they sent her a
letter saying she'd been fired anyway. This is actually illegal, but
employers do it anyway because you'd have to file a civil action to
enforce it. What they should have done is layed her off and given her
a fair severance pay deal (say 1 weeks pay per year of service). I
guess they decided it would be cheaper to trump up a case against her
and dump her unceremoniously. I think this is unfair but the labour
board doesn't handle cases like that, they handle simple pay disputes
(we asked). We would have had to hire a lawyer to pursue the case and
it would have been years. What's the point of ever feeling loyal to a
company if you are treated like that? She loved that company and
performed above and beyond what would have been expected of anybody.
Also the labour board has very little power and its decisions are far
from binding, they can be appealed ad infinitum, in higher courts. In
England there are industrial tribunes which arbitrate the disputes
and their decision is binding. Unions are practically non-existent in
small corporations here, so nothing for you to worry about there.
Finally, severance pay for layed-off workers not required here, but
mandatory in most EEC countries.
The big issue for employers which I do think is bad and where
employers have a valid gripe, is the out of control workers
compensation insurance situation.
I understand your perspective as an employer, but you'd have a lot
more rules, regulations and responsibilities than you do now if you
had the same operation in Western Europe <g>. I would go as far as
saying that, although you may not like the way things are, you are
probably under less regulation than any employer of any other major,
industrialized nation.
I like being a contractor because nobody expects anything other than
the contract work to be performed in the agreed manner. No loyalty is
expected, no brown-nosing to the boss, no resentment if you are
passed-over for a promotion, etc, etc. I would feel and have felt
totally stifled in that kind of environment, in any country.
I am surprised to hear that the Labor Board wouldn't take your wife's
case. We have an employee who was treated unfairly by a previous
employer, and I have been absolutely amazed at how far the Labor
Board is going to help him out. Providing him with counsel, helping
him prepare his case, etc.
I totally agree with the reasons you have for being an independant
contractor, I went through the exact same reasoning process 12 years
ago when I started my own business.
But now that I've seen it from both sides, both have some valid
arguements.
A good employer (as differentiated from the ones who don't care, which
is where the problems are) goes through a lot to keep his employees
working. All employees get paid first, then the government, then the
rent, then suppliers and bank loans, then new equipment and upgrades,
then the employer himself if there is anything left. And if there's
ever a shortfall, it comes out of the employer's pocket, or house, or
whatever.
So if the company has a bad year, what can you do? You keep employees
as long as you can, by then there is no money for severance pay, etc.
when you finally have to let them go. By then the employer is way in
the hole and the employee wants more! Meanwhile you've paid him for
the last four or five months with nothing coming in, and his
benefits, and taxes, etc. You could blame the employer for not
planning far enough ahead, and if he did, he would lay-off the people
sooner. But the same spirit that made someone start the company in
the first place usually sees the 'saving big project' just around the
corner, and he waits too long.
My first 4 or 5 years we went through this cycle a few times, and it
wasn't pretty. Thankfully the last 6 or 7 years have been pretty
good to us, but I remember those days all too well.
PS – If a sysop wants to move this thread to 'take 5', since it has
gone so far from video solutions, I don't think anyone will mind! <g>
I normally agree with you but as far as the union thing goes in this
country, it's quite the other way around. Check the school system
under the umbrella of the NEA (Neanderthal Education Association) for
instance. How about the postal system? Or many other agencies up to
their necks with unproductive people they just can't fire. Talk about
national debt? Whenever someone raises an issue of a agency or some
service that just isn't worth anything take a look who jumps 20 feet
of the ground and start yelling…
I had a corporation in California (full blown C corp) and closed it
down 3 years ago (transferred the assets to another corp). I still
get all sorts of stupid letters from the EDD all "concerned" about
employees as if I had done that just to get rid of them. Note that
_I_ was the "only" employee! I can see the day I will show up in
court and I'm both the poor employee who got fired and the nasty CEO
who fired him. The way these laws work, I wouldn't doubt it.
please see my lengthy reply to Greg. Yet again, we are probably in the
wrong forum to be discussing labour relations <groan>, so hopefully
the sysop will move the thread to the Take 5/General forum. Then we
can go at with aplomb <g>
Flemish is Dutch, just a little difference in accent like the
difference between an Australian and an American speaking English. I
do not use a spelling checker, I just write and speak quite good
English, mainly because as a small country we have so many different
language TV channels available: BBC, ITV, CNN English and also the
French, Spanish, Italian and German major channels next to the
Belgian and Holland channels (in dutch). I really learned it as a
kid watching childrens programs on English channels. I won't go in
further on the trade union matters, but I think somewhere in between
US and Europs ways would be the best solution for all, the trouble is
with trade unions that smaller groups are sometimes left in the cold.
(one example I know is that in Psychiatrical Hospitals overhere some
employees get paid more then a director, that is impossible I think
just because of there responsabilities, but if the directors would
protest they will only be say 40 to protest?? so they got no say and
no force in decision making). I'll stop right now.
Back to 3DS, how long would it take to put say 600 frames prepared as
targas on a hardrive through a framebuffer to an SVHS vtr. Or do you
not have to render them before you put them to tape and render
directly to the tape. What are average hiring costs at a studio for
recording on say Beta or SVHS?? I found out Exabyte is about a 5GB
tape to put your targas on, so the place you go to put this to tape
has to have such a tapestreamer to, right.
this is the wrong place to talk about labour relations, but I agree
with you. Neither Europe's system, nor USA's system is perfect, and
probably NO system would be. That's why I'd prefer to work for myself
wherever I go.
You can render directly to tape, but there are 2 disadvantages.
1) you keep your vtr's heads spinning in the same spot for several minutes (not
good for the tape or heads).
2) if you don't save the frames and there is a mistake on 1 frame or a bad spot
on the tape, you would have to render that frame, or the whole sequence, again.
You can render direct AND save to disk if you want but it's not a good idea
because of problem number 1.
5) Ooops, there is no 5, sorry.
600 frames layed frame-by-frame to SVHS would take approx 15 seconds per frame
– includes preroll, edit, postroll, rewind, sync. So about 2.5 hours for 600.
Typical frame-by-frame rates in my area are quoted per frame and range from
25cents to $1, depending on equipment and how much the service bureau wants to
charge. If you can get them to charge by the hour, say $100 per hour then you'd
probably get a better deal if they were efficient and fast, and no problems
occurred.
Fastpass/Quickpass technology would probably do it in 40 minutes and
that's just an educated guess. It depends on the number of frames,
speed of your hardrive and controller. I think they can do a maximum
of 10 frames per pass, therefore it would take 60 passes of 10 frames
each, and each pass would take about 40 seconds (5 seconds preroll,
20 seconds realtime play and editing at the appropriate points, 15
seconds for postroll, rewind etc). I'm sure there is a lot of
variables for the efficiency of quickpass/fastpass, but 1/4 of the
time of traditional frame-by-frame would be a reasonable estimate.
Remember that all vtr's especially the new, inexpensive svhs vtr's,
may not support Quickpass/Fastpass – ask your dealer. I don't know
how much a service bureau with Quickpass/Fastpass features would
charge for putting .tga files to tape – it's so new.
The DPS PAR would do it all in 20 seconds, and I'd say the quality
would be similar to svhs frame-by-frame output, especially if you
recorded to betaSP.
For the very high-end and the best quality, you would record your .tga
files to an Exabyte tape backup using a utility like ASDG's
converter. You then take or send the tape to a video house with an
Abekas A60(?) which has an Exabyte tape backup attached. They restore
the files to the Abekas (Digital Disk Recorder) which is a realtime
device and record in realtime to D1/D2/BetaSP etc. This is usually
charged by the hour and John Tivissary (a forum regular) has reported
paying US$200 per hour and getting about 1400 frames, or about US$0.14
per frame. This is a very good price and very cost effective for the
best possible quality. Exabyte 8505 (5gb or 10gb with hardware
compression) costs about US$2350 and the ASDG software about US$395
for 3ds users.
SVO-9620 is the European (PAL) model of SVO-9600 (NTSC). The price
should be similar to the US price. Please ask your local dealer. We
don't have the price here in US.
Thanks,
Koy Sampei
Product Manager / CRVdisc
Sony Electronics, Inc.