#Network/OS choice
26 messages in this thread
I am setting up a small network (6 nodes) that will be dedicated to 3DS
rendering and I am trying to determine what will be the best choice for network
software/configuration on a price/performance basis.
My alternatives are:
1. A dedicated server running Netware with each workstation running 3DS
under DOS clients.
2. A dedicated server running Windows NT Server with each workstation
running 3DS under DOS clients.
3. All machines running WIN95 with only one machine having shared drives and
acting as a dedicates server, then running 3DS in a DOS session under
WIN95.
4. What about running WIN NT WS on all of the workstations (Does NT have
built in peer-to-peer services or is NT Server nec.?)
Option 3 would be the most economical interms of network software (my new
computers will come with WIN95 installed), but is there a performance hit when
running 3DS in a DOS session under WIN95? And will I still have
access to the shared drives when I'm in DOS? (I have not tried it yet.)
One machine will probably also have a DPS PVR board…what are the OS
considerations/complications when using that guy (WIN3 v. WIN95 v. NT v. DOS)?
I know some/all of this stuff has been discussed before, but any advice
(or summary of past discussion) would be appreciated.
Alan:
Concerning your new network questions, I would strongly recommend starting out
with an NT server, and you can place the PVR on that. If you will stay below
10 stations, NT Workstation will be fine, if over 10, you will need NT Server.
This will not only work well for you now, but when MAX comes out next year, you
won't have to change anything on the server, and you're ready to go!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
PMJI, but lemme see if I got this right…
You're saying that with fewer than 10 nodes, you can set up a server running NT
Workstation; it's just if you get bigger that you need to go to Advanced Server
(?)
Thanx,
SCL
Steve:
>> You're saying that with fewer than 10 nodes, you can set up a
>> server running NT Workstation; it's just if you get bigger that
>> you need to go to Advanced Server?
Yup, NT Workstation will allow a maximum of 10 connections. (They've got to do
something to sell their server edition!)
Greg Pyros
Greg,
Thanx; I'm surprised to learn that you can get even THAT big with Workstation
alone. (Guess they're not QUITE as greedy as I thought! <BG>)
SCL
In a small (less than 10 nodes with no security req.) network environment,
what's the benefit of using NT Workstation as the "server" vs. a WIN95
"server"? Also…I know that a there has been some discussion about running
3DS under WIN95…but is there a performance hit? What about running 3DS in a
DOS session under NT while we wait for MAX?
Oops…I just read some more messages further down the forum…and it seems
that running 3DS under NT is NG and that there is a performance hit when
running under 95. Is there a way to get DOS clients to connect to an NT
workstation acting as a "server", or will NT Server be the answer?
Alan,
We are just putting a system together and what we are going to try is running
3ds4 on dos machines with "MS-Dos add on for workgroups" by Microsoft to
hook-up to a WFW server. Claus Diekmann is running like that and my dealer says
that the the MS dos extensions work with NT as well. So all the 3ds stations
run in dos and network through 1 machine in WFW or NT as a server. I hope it's
as simple as that. Should be trying it out by the weekend.
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
Bob:
>> Should be trying it out by the weekend.
Let us know how it works out for you!
Greg Pyros
I'm hoping all I'll have to say is "GGRREEAATT".
Then you'll know!!
Other wise I'll be @#$&***?!@#!!!!.<G>
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
!^NavFont01F0004HG6DE301
<< Should be trying it out by the weekend.
Let us know how it works out for you!
Greg Pyros>>
This has been a long and thrilling weekend. I installed the WFW network on my
486-100 and the Dos extensions on both P-100 and it worked. The dos extensions
are simple but you just have to try different assignment sequence and re-boots
before you find the right way to log-on automatically. Slave rendering went
without a hitch on one P-100 and the other kept hanging up at various places.
So we changed one thing at a time and tried a new slave render.
Well it took 1 mobo, 1 netcard, swapped 1 Ram chip, found something there,
then a new HDD, swapped the chip, and change the mobo again! Well glad we were
setup at the dealers lots of spare parts handy.
If I can recommend something it would be just that. Setup your system at your
dealers and try, try and try again until all the hardware bug are worked out.
WFWgroups works very well as a host and running 3dstudio inside is good,
except for jumping back into 3dStudio from windows, the screen doesn't redraw
completely. I'm sure there's a trick, just haven't found it yet.
Then I tried the PVR.
Good news is: It works great!
1 hitch, it does not want to take more than 156 TGA frames at a time. Is that
normal?
Bad news: well the manual!
I guess if I knew what I was talking about I wouldn't need more, but I
couldn't tell you what a field is or an Alpha channel if it bit me!
Any good books on Video ?
I've read some threads that suggest to do this and that in video post
production instead of in 3dstudio, but again I'm illiterate on the matter and I
need to get knowledgeable fast!
The real unfortunate part is that once I got everything running I started
changing the name of the server and each machine as to identify them better and
my two associates walked in. Well they were not pleased, because I'm not
supposed to be doing that!
The network is the HEART of the system and is supposed to be installed by some
guy with a BIG "EXPERT" hat on.
So they called the local Autodesk rep and got his opinion. We are meeting with
him tomorrow. He claims that he does not have Autodesk's backing to put any
guaranty on anything but a Novell network.
Is that true ?
My associates also claim that I cannot guaranty my setup and that "us users"
are not to know anything about the network. "An expert gets paid to come and
install this for us and configure etc…"."That's how it's done in acounting
and lawyer firms"
How come you know what you're talking about?
( I know the answer to that one: Because you NEED to know, simple isn't it? ).
The situation is: there's only 3 of us! So ?
I've been asked to get the best most flexible ( and powerfull ) setup for the
lowest price. In one of your answers you told me <<NT, SchmenTee, it doesn't
matter what is running on your file server! :^)>> so the solution I found was
WFWgroups.
I'm sorry if this is a little long, but the whole situation is a bit much for
me.
I unfortunately do not trust the only Adesk dealer in our region for 3
reasons:
1) He failed to realize that we could not afford the budget he quoted. With
his quote on 2x P-75 HP and 1x P-90, 1 Sony monitor and novell 5 users, we
managed to get 2-P100, 2x 17" screens, a PVR w/2.1Gb Barracuda, network, a
flatbed scanner a Fargo, and we've got money left for another P100 if we need
it!
2) He had no idea what a PVR was and tried to sell us his output to tape via
framebuffer services at outrageous costs.
3) When I called 2 weeks ago, the sales people there had no clue that MAX
existed in fact I send them the promotional letter that Autodesk Canada sent to
their dealers to anounce the package deal with the upgrade migration fee.
Well Thank God for Compuserve and specially everyone in this forum, because we
would be bankrupt in our 3rd month of operation. This forum is the best course
I've ever taken ( a little unstructured mind you <g> !).
The dealer's ignorance is not Autodesk's fault at all.
I know you are tied in somehow with Autodesk and to me your opinion has as
much weight as Jonas etc…
I just want to know if I'm doing O.K. or if I've gone completely "GAGA" and I
should check my screen for harmful emissions?
Thanks,
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
Bob:
Wow, what a message! I'll try to answer most of your questions:
>> Then I tried the PVR.
>> 1 hitch, it does not want to take more than 156 TGA frames at a time.
>> Is that normal?
I doubt it! Anyone have one of these beasts working properly yet?
>> I guess if I knew what I was talking about I wouldn't need more, but
>> I couldn't tell you what a field is or an Alpha channel if it bit me!
Just hang around here, much better than a manual, and lots more fun!
>> So they called the local Autodesk rep and got his opinion. We are
>> meeting with him tomorrow. He claims that he does not have Autodesk's
>> backing to put any guaranty on anything but a Novell network.
>> Is that true ?
Totally false. 3D Studio has been extensively tested on many different
networks, and works fine on them. Some smaller/peer-to-peer networks have some
problems when running many stations, but as long as you know your limitations
(Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry, I believe) you'll be OK.
>> In one of your answers you told me <<NT, SchmenTee, it doesn't matter
>> what is running on your file server! :^)
Be careful of what and who you quote out of context! :^) My comment came
directly out of your question on what you could do, not necessarily what I
would recommend! As I recall, I was talking about UNIX at the time!
>> I know you are tied in somehow with Autodesk and to me your opinion
>> has as much weight as Jonas etc…
That sure puts me in with good company! <bg> My only affiliation with
Autodesk is that I am a very happy user of their software, and have built an
animation business around it. Well, and we write programs and drivers under
contract for them. Oh, yes, I do write some books and magazine articles about
their software. Yea, our top programmer is on loan to the Yost Group for the
duration of the MAX programming. Um, I guess we are also Authorized Autodesk
Developers. I'm also an official support person (FA) here on the forum. Come
to think of it, I think I am pretty well tied into Autodesk! :^)
Greg Pyros
Greg
Thanks for the answers and confirmations. To follow up, we met the dealer, and
everybody talked bla bla bla. Finally I told him that I had everything working
with WFWGroups and he became all suprised! Then we talked PVR ( What's that
some sort of creative lab's game toy?)
gave him the specs the tests I did on the weekend etc…
So he took note of the system and he called Adesk. They answered they did not
hear of any "bad stories using WFWgroups" or any known bugs. So he offered to
install it "officially for us" with a guaranty plan etc…
The Irony of it is, All I know comes from you guys and now I'm feeding an
Adesk rep. in on what's up!
Never thaught I could return the favor this way.
Thanks again.
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
Bob:
>> The Irony of it is, All I know comes from you guys and now I'm
>> feeding an Adesk rep. in on what's up!
Just proves what most of us have said all along – this is THE best place to
learn and get 3DS support! But please don't confuse the "Adesk dealers" with
official "Adesk reps" – I have found that the Adesk reps are extremely
knowledgeable and helpful, the only dealers I personally know that know a lot
about 3DS hang out here!
Greg Pyros
Autodesk, a wholly owned subsidiary of Pyros Pictures. News at 11.
LAM
Larry:
>> News at 11.
Hey, it's almost 11 here, what channel? :^)
Greg Pyros
Bob,
>> 1 hitch, it does not want to take more than 156 TGA frames at a time. Is
that normal? <<
that's a known problem with Win 3.1 when you highlight a bunch of frames –
apparently the selected files have that 156 limit.
the workaround when you have more than 156 frames to send to the PVR is to only
highlight the frame you want the sequence to start on and the PVR will happily
keep importing frames until the sequence is ended (or broken). For example, if
you have files fram0000.tga to fram0999.tga just highlight fram0000.tga and the
PVR will stop after fram0999.tga. If you want it to stop sooner you'll have to
wait around and hit <esc>.
I believe this limitation will be gone in NT, but I'm not running it with NT
yet so I can't be sure.
Thanks Martin I'll give it a try.
By the way I can confirm that the new Vibrant drivers 1.08c someting work for
the Diamond Stealth 64 Vram 4Mb. 1024 x 768 16 million color !!! Just tried
them today.
So now I just have to find a way to increase the refresh rate on the screen
from 44 to 75 and the it will stop flickering. Any clues ?
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
Bob,
>> So now I just have to find a way to increase the refresh rate on the screen
from 44 to 75 and the it will stop flickering. Any clues ? <<
you need to install and run s64mode.exe – this will allow you to specify
refresh rates for all your resolutions. It will then add this to your
autoexec.bat.
Bob,
PMJI, but that un-trustworthy dealer of yours sounds a lot like one I ran into
here in SoCal…
I started to get suspicious when he was telling me how 3DS will only run
properly on one of three (expensive) machines, and of course, he was also an
authorized reseller of two of 'em!
Needless to say, I took my business elsewhere and I've been happy ever since!
Good luck with your new Expert hat!
SCL
That should work. BTW, don't use ethernet, use 10-BT. It costs a little more,
but you'll be glad you did. The extra bandwidth will speed up the network ,
and ethernet network cards sometime choke on big packets.
Also, I highly recommend an NT server. It'll handle the files and servering
_much_ better than a WFW server, and it won't GPF on you. Be sure and put a
high speed network card in the server. It's been my experience when
net-rendering on a Micro$oft network with more that 4 or 5 slaves, you'll see a
decrease in server performance. Long save times can really ad up. NTAS will
allow you all kinds of options to speed up your lan.
Best-o-Luck!
Chris
Chris
Thanks for your input, and I'll take the opportunity to tap some more
knowledge, if you don't mind.
The cards I want to start with were generic 10Mb/s (like GVC or something like
that). My dealer was suggesting to go with some 3com dual ports with 100Mb/s
and 10Mb/s. I couldn't answer because I have no idea of what the data flow is
on a network while rendering.
The other option was 3Com 10Mb/s cards. Of course everything has got it's
price but I don't know what need really. Any insights are welcome.
<<BTW, don't use ethernet, use 10-BT>>
Is that a brand name?
<<I highly recommend an NT server. It'll handle the files and servering _much_
better than a WFW server>>
I will have 3 pentium 100 on the network and a 486-80 as a server, at least
until MAX comes out. Then I'll switch to NT. Do you think WFW will hold 'till
then?
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
As I see it, the best rull of thumb for network bandwidth in a graphical
development LAN is "the higher the better". Your consultant was right in
trying to point you at the 100Mb/s cards. They exceed what you will need in the
short term, but provide a longterm solution. You can buy them now or upgrade
later. 3Com is a nice brand, but pricey. Ask him what his return rate is on
the generic network cards. The Generics usually work fine, but if there is one
thing that holds true in this industry, you get what you pay for.
10-BT is a type of network cableing. Ethernet looks like cable TV cable, while
10-bT looks like phone wire. More commonly know as "Twisted-Pair". Also, If
you use 10bt, you'll need a "concentrator" or hub. This device handles network
collisions and packet routing.
If your WFW server is dedicated, yes. It will work even if it's not, but I
would use a P100 instead. Also, give him a PCI based network server card.
Remember all that stuff about the "Render Jungle" and "Render Farm" and "Render
Garden"? When I built the prototype, I used WFW for the server. It worked for
4 to 8 slaves, but when you crank up the network traffic, keep an eye on it.
You might want to use '95 as a server.
It's got better network support.
Thanks….but what is "MS-Dos add on for workgroups"? I have never heard of of
it! I assume that its DOS client software for a WFW network…is it available
in the retail channels or do you get it from a dealer? If I use WIN95 for the
server is there an "MS-DOS add-on for WIN95"?
Good luck with your set up…
Alan,
<< "MS-Dos add on for workgroups"?… I assume that its DOS client software
for a WFW network.>>
Right.
<<.is it available in the retail channels>>
Right again. Any little store that can get windows can get the DOS add-ons.
<< "MS-DOS add-on for WIN95"? >>
Not sure, all I know is that we get the same MS-DOS add-on if we have an NT
server or a WFWG server, so maybe it also works for '95.
Keep asking and someone will answer for sure.
Bob Kohl
Cedille inc.
-Bob Kohl
Thanks. I'll check it out.