#AAP vs Newtek Toaster
27 messages in this thread
I've gotta tellya…..I've been holding off for about a year, spending the
money for a DOS based animation/S-video set up because of the Newtek
Toaster that's strictly on the Amiga platform, but figured I could
accomplish *almost* the same things with AAP and a good A/V mixer like the
MX-50, so I just layed out the moola for all of the gear last week. (you
don't want my Visa bill!) Must be all those free airline miles that did
it.<g>
Is Autodesk exploring or ever going to explore doing the Toaster thing but
for the IBM platform? Seems like you have most of the tools needed
already.
Here's the big question…..
How would you compare AAP's features to those of the Toaster?
sorry to but in here Gary , but the toaster is good for one thing only a
switcher, and only a switcher. i got one and thats all i use it for. 3ds2
blows the lid off one of those tin toasters. don't be fooled into buying
one for animation, its good for transitions and other effects but not as an
animation platform at all.
let me relate a little story i was just told by the head of one of sgi's
software/hardware developers. he had a client that landed a big animation
job and wanted to buy 20 toasters so he could finish the job in the time he
wanted. needless to say he responded by saying even 20 of them couldn't do
the job in time. so he sold them a sgi crimson xgat and 4 indingo's for
less than what he was going to spend on the toasters and at 84 mips or so
he's flying pretty fast now.
so if i were you i would buy a 486/66 or 50 with 3ds2 and all the extra's
and you will still be under the price it costs to fully equip a toaster so
its speed is even tolerable.
didn't mean to be so long winded but when anyone mentions a toaster for
animation i just have to shake my head and say why?.
sherwood …. sherwood animations
Gee, did you expect the "head of one of SGI's software/hardware developers
to tell you anything else? If someone's ready to plunk down $100K to solve
an animation problem, it's not low-end no matter how you look at it. In
that case, it would have been just as ridiculous to suggest for them to buy
20 PCs or 20 Macs.
I'd be willing to argue that a Toaster is more useful for animation than as
a switcher or transition generator. Its animated transitions are fairly
low resolution, on the order of about 320 x 400 pixels; but they're moving,
so it looks OK. But of course "OK" is a subjective thing, usually subject
to how much cash is available in your wallet. 🙂 That's true for
rendering, too. Adding a single-framing setup to any system might cost
more than the computer and software, no?
If we remove ourselves from the rarefied atmosphere of $100K animation
solutions, then the price, performance and feature differences between PC,
Mac and Amiga solutions could be significant to some buyers. That's what
makes it a horse race – there's a low-, a middle-, and a high-end. SGI is
debating with buyers who demand comparisons against the mid- and low-end.
3D Studio no doubt gets compared against the Toaster. I'm open-minded
enough to see why people buy different systems, and to recognize that the
needs of one buyer might not be the same as another.
ok ok … i will open my mind a little more. but i conceder sgi top end
3ds2 as middle end but approching the high end with these new ipas stuff.
and the toaster as low end. i have played on all three levels and thats
just how it seems to me.
sherwood
In the computer business, arguing that the low-end can't do "x" is often a
losing proposition… sooner than later, it will. And especially in the
graphics business, the high- and middleand low-ends will freely borrow from
each other's features whenever possible, and none of them have a corner on
the market for creative, useful ideas. What do you think Siggraph is for?
🙂
i agree in concept with you, that there are usefull applications for all
platforms but for animation on the broadcast side of things i see only
3ds2/ipas as the only cost effective way for under 20,000 that someone can
have the broadness in capabilities that 3ds2 offers at that price range for
a very wide range of animation capabilties. i cound never compete with the
larger animation houses using an amiga , i could and am giving them a
headake with 3ds2/ipas. its expecially gratafing when a client see's an
animation that cost him 2500 and the post group wanted 15000 and he's as
happy as a clam, i now fell that (thats feel , i can't spell worth sh*t)
autodesk/yost group have a real good feeling of what animators like my self
need in the way of tools(software) to be able to compete and win contracts
away from the over priced animation houses like the post group. its a very
healthy atmosphere to be involved with. i just don't like other people just
getting into this line work to be side tracked like i was with software
like dgs33 thats powerfull but very hard to use and is not supported very
well and costs to dam much for what it does. i'm going to stop now i sound
like i work for autodesk <g>
sherwood
There will always be cheapskates using low-end hardware and software.
They're the people who make the cheesy used car dealership commercials, the
industrial videos, the promotional tape intros… they might charge $500
where you charge $5000. You get what you pay for. 🙂 Other than that,
they say the same things you do – that, for the money, they're getting the
most bang for their buck.
You said your 3D Studio system includes about $20K in hardware and
software. Is that typical? What does it include?
first the computer 486/50dx approx 2200.00 today. second 3ds2 – 3000.00
aprox. third – framebuffer atvista 4meg 3500 approx. 32megs memory (really
you should have more) 1600.00 at 50 a meg. large harddisk 1 gig 2200.00.
diaquest controller series 11sp 3500.00 sync generator/encoder/decoder
3000.00. cables and video software like tips or highres qfx and color
scanner. 3000.00. so about 20,000.00 to 22,000.00 for your main system.
each addition system to just render to targa files would run probably about
3500 to 4500 for one's with 32 megs of ram and fairly large harddisk. i
personally run 4 486/50's and one 486/66dx2 and one 486/40 all with 32 megs
and two with atvistas and two with targa 64's going to betacam ,3/4 inch
sp, ag7750 s-vhs. this setup will typically handle just about all the jobs
i get in withon a resonalable to a fast output.
i meant a 386/40 above.
sherwood sherwood animations
That's quite a system you have there. Thanks for the detailed list; it
helps me gain a perspective on 3D Studio users. I'd say you're at the high
end of 3D Studio users. Do you think that's an accurate assessment?
well the stuff i do is mostly for cable tv. i don't think thats high end
for 3ds2. if i do get some work for nbc,abc then i would be doing high end
in 3ds2. but i don't think this setup is high end i think Gary Yosts system
is definatly high end with the lvr5000 laser disk recorder and a network of
i think 12 systems linked together,now thats a system i could live with.
sherwood
Just a _minor_ correction, Sherwood… that LVR system isn't mine… it's
managed by Jamie Clay up at Autodesk. I just have access to it! <g>
Jamie's getting another 4 machines this month… rendering power isn't even
an issue with that many cpu's on the job. It's pretty incredible.
– G
Sherwood,
Any animation specific type Mags you would suggest to a "newbie light
animation user" ?
Is there such an animal?
Thanks,
DN
high color mag. used to be resolution i think. cadyalist mag is a good one
too. those are the two i read in the mourning when i do my dudie.
sherwood
high color mag. used to be resolution i think. cadyalist mag is a good one
too. those are the two i read in the mourning when i do my dudie.
—————
Thanks Sherwood. If ya happen to find any phone number with subscription
info, I'd appreciate it!
DN
>ok ok … i will open my mind a little more. but i conceder sgi top end
3ds2 >was middle end but approching the high end with these new ipas stuff.
^^^^^^^^^^ Wait for the P5…+100 MIPS (and new OSs)
will bring the PC to the real HIGH end. I've heared that Microsoft are
going to integrate the SGI GL into NT. What about a version of 3DS for NT?
Rendering in the background? Symetric multiprocessing? Multiple render
devices? I could imagine hundreds of posibilities. Opinions? Plans? Gary?
Ana
Ana,
Me again 🙂
Autodesk will not comment on future versions, BUT, from what I have read,
they are committed to moving over to Windows. What happened to Autocad will
happen to 3ds eventually, IMHO, especially with 32-bit Windows (which will
still probably be slower than the DOS version). DOS and Pharlap are
actually the reasons why Autocad and 3ds are so fast compared to UNIX based
programs. I just read BYTE magazine and Autocad was faster on a Compaq
486/50 than almost all the Unix workstations except the IBM 6000 which was
about 3 times more money.
I like the idea of the P5 and the idea of Windows NT (multi-tasking) but if
I have to lose speed because NT is less efficient than DOS then forget it.
I think we have a great thing going right now with cheap, fast hardware and
fast, efficient software/operating system so I'm just looking forward
mostly to the much faster, but still relatively cheap P5. BTW, it's now
officially called the "Pentium". (don't look in the dictionary <g>).
Martin
We recieved a fax from Intel yesterday about the definitive name. I think
that the translation from Latin is…"The 5th"? (My latin is limited to
Cogito ergo sum and Alea jacta est <g>).
Despite the better perfomance, compared to the 486, you must rewrite your
aplications to take advantage of the full Pentium features and power. I
already have a Windows NT SDK beta copy installed in a DELL66 and the
improvement in the performance between DOS and NT is incredible. Jesus has
wrote a long article about NT capabilities for the November issue of PC
Actual. He (and me) thinks that NT could be the definitive OS to create
graphics. I've a lot of ideas about graphics programs in NT but I'm not a
programer, I'm just playing with the toys. The Yost Group could give us
some opinions about this topic. We, simple mortals, have to wait, and wait,
and wait <g> However, I'm happy with my computer…until I have to render
2130 frames <G>.
Ana
ps. DEC invited Jesus to the spanish presentation of the Alpha AXP chip and
a Jensen workstation based on that chip set (he critics the Alpha program
in the last press conference, but they have good relations with him). More
on this in November 11th.
Ana,
Yeah, "the 5th" sounds right for Pentium. Sounds like you know more about
all this new stuff than me! I should try to become a writer for the
graphics magazines like some of the people on this forum – you don't get
paid much for it but you get to play with the new toys and some you can
keep! Forever! Right now, I just read Byte, Computer Graphics world etc.
|:-(
>magazines like some of the people on this forum – you don't get paid much
for >it but you get to play with the new toys and some you can keep!
Yes! That's the main reason to work in a mag: play with toys and get the
experience! I love it! Pournelle's columns is the best example for that.
Ana
Pentium…Is that like "The Pit And The Pentium"? <G>roan.
Ha ha ha! choak…
Good one,
Martin
>didn't mean to be so long winded but when anyone mentions a toaster for
>animation i just have to shake my head and say why?.
Hey, on the contrary, I'm really glad you DID jump in on this one. I've
been scratching my head wondering if I did in fact make the right equipment
decisions, and you're helping to convince me that I did.
I think I'm covered on the hardware video editors and A/V mixer that will
give me most everyting that the hardware features of the Toaster offer, I
just wasn't sure that AAP would come close to what it does animation wise.
Guess I'm gonna have to look into 3ds2 someday for the 3d stuff that AAP
can't do, but I'll tellya, for what I'm doing AAP does a great job so far
and looks good on tape. Of course I'm still in the crawling stage as far as
learning AAP, but I put a lot of time into new things, so it shouldn't take
that long to get a decent idea of what I'm doing.
-switch-
What can ya tell me about these TARGA+ boards that I've been hearing about?
What can I use one for and what's street price? Thanks Sherwood, I figured
I'd pick yer brain a bit, hope ya don't mind.
Dave
i would ask kevin krell here on the form for prices he is very reasonable.
i run 2 targa 64 + and 2 atvista 4 meg framebuffers. they allow you to see
and render at a max of 16 million colors or true color at 8 16 24 and 32
bits color depth. the atvista will do a higher ntsc res 756x486x32 bit
depth compared to the targa 16/32 or 64 that does 512x486x32 color depth. i
would recommend both cards but prefer the atvista 4 meg's. although if you
render in field mode on the targa the output is fantastic. bite the bullet
and get 3ds2 and a framebuffer and the appropriate monitors. then lock your
self in your office and come out in spring an expert.
sherwood
> field mode on the targa the output is fantastic. bite the bullet and get
3ds2 and a framebuffer and the appropriate monitors. then lock your self in
your office and come out in spring an expert. <
Hehehehe, now what you're saying. I'm runnin outta moola though! This
stuff is just a hobby for me, but even though I've got about $100K in music
studio recording gear, the measly 10K or so I've layed out in the past
couple weeks for SVHS gear and the related stuff to lock SMPTE to do simple
beginners video work and slap in a couple AAP animations with ChromaKeying,
is KILLING ME.
Dave's simple remaining shopping list:
S-camcorder and wireless mic system Targa boards and monitors 3DS
Once I finish the list I'll be pretty dangerous. 🙂
Hmmm…..lesseeeee….if I refinance and pull out $100k I
can…….HELP!!<g>
I'll defer to Sherwood on this one, since he's got a lot more experience
with the Toaster than I do. In general, however, comparing the Toaster to
Ani Pro is like comparing Apples and Oranges (or Toasters and Blenders).
Ani Pro is a 2D animation system, and the Toaster is a switcher with
various software to do 3D animation, titling, and special effects (but not
really any serious 2D animation). You have to use additional 2D animation
software on the Amiga for that kind of thing (like Dpaint, for example).
3D Studio, on the other hand, directly competes with the Toaster in every
way EXCEPT it's video-switcher capabilities — because of it's Video Post
module in 3DSr2. (this is assuming that you've got all of your frames
digitized) However, since the Toaster runs on the Amiga, I wouldn't really
consider it a robust production solution. It's got a great industrial
quality switcher, and is very useful in a low-budget studio.
– G
>3D Studio, on the other hand, directly competes with the Toaster in every
way >EXCEPT it's video-switcher capabilities — because of it's Video Post
module >in 3DSr2. (this is assuming that you've got all of your frames
digitized)
Is the 3ds user interface very similar to that of AAP?
Is list still about $3k?
Excuse my ignorance on this one guys, but "all of your frames digitized"..
meaning?
The 3DS user interface is much more similar to AutoCAD's than to AAP's. The
process of doing 3D animation is much more structured than 2D animation —
hence a different interface. List price is still $3K.
By "all of your frames digitized", I mean that 3DS can't deal with live
analog video. You must digitize the video frames first if you want to work
with them in the post-production environment.
– G