#CD-Audio making machine?
21 messages in this thread
David,
With the correct software the any of the CD-ROM write once machines
will make CD-DA (digital audio) disks. I've seen it advertised as an extra
cost option with TOPIX (works with the Philips cutter).
Of course you're still a long way from having a recording studio…
also be aware that the blank recordable disks cost about $25 in hundreds,
so the breakeven point vs. having a regular CD mastered is pretty low.
Frank
Frank,
Thanks for the reply. I am glad you pointed out the costs of blank disks.
Seems a little steep but who knows. My application could potentially go
through thousands a day so hopefully cost of disks will be less of a
factor.
Any idea how long it takes to make a CD-DA disk in one of these machines?
10 seconds, 10 minutes, or 10 hours?
Thanks again for the information.
David
David,
The machines cut at twice the real-time rate, so a one-hour disc
would take 30 minutes, plus whatever time it took to mount the tape and
start the process (another minute or two).
If your application really could use thousands per day you
porobasblly should consider getting disks conventionally mastered and
pressed. You're looking at about $1200 plus $2.00/disk, and that includes
silk screening and such like, which you wouldn't get with a one-off.
Alternatively, for strictly audio, consider a DAT.
Frank
Frank,
Thanks again for the input.
Frankly, (I couldn't resist <g>) the whole objective of the project is to
avoid making a bunch at a time. I need to produce the disks on demand and
as fast as possible when needed. Twice real time is pretty good and better
than I expected but as with anything in the info biz faster is better.
DAT would simplify my life quite a bit but the players do not have the
market that CD-Audio does. I don't know a single individual who has one vs
not knowing a single person who does not have a CD player. I don't care
which format personally but lots of other people do.
David
David,
May I point out that Frank's figures for manufactured CD-ROMs are based on
discs all using the same data, not 1000 different one-off CDs? We're
discussing custom work vs mass production, and that will always have to be
higher priced because of the economy of scale.
Kathy <<– The One-Off CD Shop MidSouth, Inc.
Kathy,
Thanks for the reply.
What does the One-Off CD Shop Do? Sounds like you make CD's one at a time.
David
David,
I'm intrigued by a market you see for thousands of different disks
_per_ day. I can see a "backlist" department in large record stores where
people who really wanted something that had too little volume to be stocked
could go and order it cut for next day pickup, but I would expect that even
the largest stores would have a volume in hundreds not thousands.
You would also have to negotiate royalty deals with some of the
most fossilized minds that have anything to do with electronics. Those
studio lawyers _hate_ new technology.
If you can share your idea I'd really be interested in hearing it.
Frank
Frank,
Why stock CD's at all? Why not do everything on demand?
My stepfather produces records and always complains that the biggest cost
in getting a band going is initial distribution. His eyes lit right up
when I said it might be possible to produce the disks as needed at the
point of sale. Easy to do demos too (who wants to buy a group they have
never heard?). He said if the technology is there he could introduce me to
the record bigwigs.
So far everyone says it is a good idea but I'm still tracking down the
pieces. Putting it all together would be a little piecemeal now. My
feeling is that the technology makes it possible but not cost effective
now. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.
David
I see lawyers for music companies running everywhere to control the music
on demmand. <grin>
Albert,
Interesting point about the lawyers. Not my favorite group of people.
Several people have made the comment that on demand might actually be
better for the industry since it can be monitored and controlled (in
theory) very easily. Just provide an electronic record of all discs that
were produced and calculate your royalities.
There are a million ways to beat the system but the current system also is
not immune to copying, etc. What the recording people tell me is that if
it can sell music cheaper (or more of it due to greater variety in any one
location) then the lawyers will work it out. Like any business if you can
sell it you call the shots.
Not a perfect answer and it will be a long hard (expensive) battle.
David
David:
You may be right about "on-demand" for the new group just getting off the
groud. But there are (at least) two issues you will have to address: 1)
the cost (as noted in other messages, the media alone will cost you $25-35
in large quantities, not to mention your recording workstation and
personnel costs), and 2) the time required to record the disc may hamper
the impulse buy over-the-counter.
Rich Bowers
Rich,
Yeah, you're right on both points (cost, time of production). I figured
TOP would be an issue but I didn't think costs would still be so high. The
information I have received from this forum has been invaluable. If
nothing else it has pinpointed the major issues.
I liked Frank's idea about a specialty dealer. For now that seems
feasiable based on current limitations. The good news is that (if the past
is any predictor of the future in this business) costs and production times
will certainly drop as the technology improves.
David
David:
Stay tuned here on the Forum for changes, and keep us posted as to your
progress.
Best of Luck!
Rich Bowers
David,
I got into this whole area by having the same idea about books, and
I have the same feeling that you do. It's technically feasible, but not yet
cost-effective, although, for both of us, I think a mail-order operation
for specialty items, in competition with the "Used & Rare" trade might fly.
I have also heard that there is one such operation (books, not
music) operating in British Columbia, though I got a disconnected number
notice when I tried to call their BBS.
Frank
Frank,
I never thought about a used and rare mail order. Might be a good way to
get around the cost/time of production issue. At this point it would be a
speciality market anyway.
BTW, did you want to distribute general titles on CD, technical info.,
etc.? I have always thought optical media is great until you have to read
lots of something. What someone really needs to do is design a reading
system (monitor) that looks like a book. Sony's data discman is a step in
the right direction but has a ways to go.
How did you get around the reader limitation?
David
David,
Actually, 5 years ago I was primarily looking for a way to
cost-effectively do paper books in onesies (the problem is binding–laser
printers are wonderful).
I'm primarily looking at small market out-of print stuff. Every
real person (ie not somebody's couch potato cousin) I've ever talked to
about this could think of half a dozen books in their field of interest
that would sell 500 copies immediately and 5 copies per month forever.
CDROM would be more of a problem because of the higher cost–I'd
need to have several works that a customer wanted, and they'd need to be
willing to read it on line. I wouldn't try that yet, but if I was still a
bachelor with a day job, I'd likely be starting something with paper.
Frank
Frank:
Have you seen the franchised line of kids' books that are individualized
with names of the kid and family members? The supplier provides the pages
with the color graphics, and the covers. The printer enters the
appropriate names into a small database, and laser prints the color pages
with the text. For about $15 a copy or so. Clever idea, tho I don't know
how much money it makes.
As the market matures, you could see the "possibility" of a game disc or
some other amusement, produced one-off, that could do special effects and
name-insertion is variety of multimedia ways. Kids!? The heck with them!
**I** want to my name up in lights!
Rich Bowers
Hi David,
every record process on a double-speed CD-WO machine takes approx. half the
time of the playtime printed on the media, e.g. it takes 30 minutes to cut
off a CDR-63 and approx. 36 min for a CDR-73. As the Orange Book Part-II is
a "kind of extension" of the Red Book a CD-Recordable is measured in
minutes. For the media it doesn't matter what's written on it.
Therefore your CD-DA takes (playtime/2) minutes for recording, so a 10
minutes song will take about 5 minutes to be recorded.
Hope this helps.
Torsten
Torsten,
Thanks for the detail on the process.
David
Frank,
With the minimum run of mastered audio CDs being (usually) 1000, and a
setup cost of $800, the break-even point comes at about 20-25 one-off audio
discs, although I think our audio one-offs are underpriced given that we
have to get some specialized equipment (regular DAT drives require special
firmware to premaster Red Book CDs).
Kathy <<– The One-Off CD Shop MidSouth, Inc.
Kathy,
I had assumed the same minimum run as for a ROM. Any idea why it's
different?
Thanks for the info.
Frank