#IBM Animation?
61 messages in this thread
Can anyone tell me if there is an animation program available that
is comparable to Lightwave 3D (on the Video Toaster) that is IBM
or compatable friendly. What I'm looking for is the quality, not so much
the speed. I just ca'nt seem to find a worthy animation program for my
Dynex, either 2D or 3D. I considered 3D Concepts for Windows, by Autodesk,
but that program is still a mystery. There iis no demo available, and I'm
not about to spend hundreds of dollars on a product I know nothing about.
James—————–
Save yourself some grief. Locate your nearest Commodore Amiga Dealer and
ask for a demo of some of the animation programs available for the Amiga.
Better yet look at it this way…Only the AMIGA makes it possible.
(quality costs…
Patrick
No. Even with Amiga, Toaster, RAM, accelerator, hd, etc. Lightwave will
cost about as much as software that even begins to approach its qualit
and there is not much.
Topas (if you have a truevision card) costs around $7500.00, about as much
as a loaded-for-3D Toaster… with software included!
Arnie—->>I just got a Brochure from AT&T,Topas 4.0 which is the Current
Version is only $4995 LIST price.including the Animation prg too MIDGARD
GRAPHICS
They're dropping prices! Now it just costs as much as LightWave software
and an entry level toaster workstation! Did they mention the MAc price?
Yea AT&T mentioned the price of the MAC version but I don't recall offhand
what it was.I'm sure it was HIGH! MIDGARD GRAPHICS
Yes there is. It's called 3D Studio. It's by Autodesk. "Go Asoft" here on
CIS.
It is a great program. I own a Toaster and Lightwave drives me nuts. I use
3D Studio for all animation. If I ever need to do a raytrace I'll have to
use Lightwave since 3D Studio only does reflection mapping. ( much like the
version 1.0 Toaster) 3D Studio also has a collection of IPAS routines that
will allow you to do some amazing things with animation. As well as being
able to generate a 256 color version of the animation to test on the system
in a "flic" format. I personally think 3D Studio kicks Lightwave's rear.
But, there is no way you will set up a PC animation station as cheap as a
Toaster with all the Toaster's additional features. 3D Studio sells for
around 3K. That's just the software.
Do you use the 3D Studio import abilities of LightWave? They were created
by my company, Syndesis. We've been thinking about releasing a 3D Studio
Converter for our InterChange Plus conversion system. With this, you'd be
able to read and write the .3DS and .MLI files, converting them to and from
almost all of the significant Amiga 3D formats. Do you have any need to
move your LightWave models back to 3D Studio?
We're registered Autodesk Multimedia Developers. In fact, our support for
the .3DS file format was the first on any platform.
I would like to be able to move Toaster files to 3DS and vice versa. So
YES! to answer your question. I think other people would too.
Great! I was just playing with the Chrysler building from the 3D Studio
CD-ROM, in LightWave, this morning.
What would such a conversion package cost? When can I get it?
InterChange Plus is out now for $99.95 retail, we're offering a special
intro price of $69.95 for direct sales. Our DXF Converter is now $150, as
an add-on to ICP. I suspect the price of our 3D Studio Converter will be
comparable to that. I'm considering bundling the two together.
Could you provide details as to what ICP will convert to from? I am
currently looking for an easy way to either use my PC with a single frame
VCR or my Amiga with the SFC…
I don't want to keep moving boards / cables around. I'd rather hook up the
deck to one machine ( I don't care which one ) and transfer my images to it
to be recorded. So I either need to convert TGA's to a Toaster compatible
format or convert the Toaster framestores to a TGA to be recorded out of my
Targa 64+. I think I would rather convert the TGA's to the Toaster format
since the Toaster has a better NTSC output than the Targa does.
Converting my 3D objects to / from each platform would sure be a nice
feature to have!
Our number is (608) 455-1422. Give me a call, I'll get your address, put
you on the mailing list. We don't convert bitmap images, we convert 3D
models. For Targa compatibility, you need a program like Imagemaster or
Art Department.
Thanks, I sent you my address via email. The 3D model conversion seems to
the the hardest thing to convert and it sounds like you have a killer
product!
Could you also give me a phone number to order this package from?
Try 3D Studio from Autodesk and BTW it's CONSIDERABLY More than Hundreds of
Dollars.it lists for $2995.Also you could try Will Vinton's Playmation or
even Impulse Imagine(tho I don't know if it's shipping yet) MIDGARD
GRAPHICS oh yea there's also AT&T's Topas 4.0,or Autodesk Generic CADD as
to them being lightwave 3D,I dunno but I imagine similar RESULTS are
attainable.
Have you tried 3D studio by Autodesk?
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
No. In fact, I have'nt tried any program. I'm basically looking for
the right program to purchase. If you would like to do me a favor, you
could upload some sort of demo, if you have one, so I could see what it is
capable of doing. You see, up until now, the only animation
I've done was by hand, and let me tell you, that gets tired fast. You draw
all weekend, and end up with 2 seconds of film. At that rate,
I'll never get anywhere.
J.M.Britt
Go ASOFT. They have some demo animations there.
Just buy 3D studio for the IBM.. it has the most support and does SUPERB
output in any resolution you choose… it's also very fast giving you
320×200 8bit color previews of most any drawing in minutes (or seconds)…
And of course wire-frame and shaded previews in seconds… It supports
animation built-in so you don't have to save your 3d drawings and then
animate them in another program… I don't have any demos as of now.. but
there should be one here on CIS somewhere…
Anyone else have any 3d studio demos?
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Go Asoft Joe, there's some of the new cool IPAS demos there. You are right.
The preview function is another reason my Toaster sits idle while 3D Studio
hums along!
Dude! download rend24. I use it all the time to get anim previews from LW.
It works great.
Joe,the BIG Question here is in what REZ and # of Colors does Autodesk 3D
Studio Support Animating?I'm currently Animating with my DCTV unit on my
A3000 in Psuedo 24 bit color at 736*482 REZ and recording in Almost
Realtime to tape.
It's relatively unlimited, or just limited by available memory. 🙂 In
other words, they let you define the horizontal and vertical resolution,
and the pixel aspect ratio. Rendering is 24 bits plus 8 bits of alpha
that's processed at the same time. So, for example, you can generate the
alpha planes of your object at the same time as the 24 bit RGB, then use
the alpha data later in the "video post" part of the program, for special
effects, etc.
Thanx John but I think you went for the Technical when all I really wanted
to know was if 3D Studio could Animate in Relatively realtime via Say VGA
256 color mode.I'm trying desperately to avoid a Single Frame VTR and
Controller and have so far Via DCTV anims sprinkled with Copious amounts
of RAM.
A cautious "yes". 3D Studio makes .FLI and .FLC files, so you're looking
at maybe 320 x 200 x 256 colors, with playback as fast as your hard disk
and video card and PC processor. Get a 486/33 or 486/50 today, and it'll
work. But then you need to get from VGA to NTSC… 🙂
I've seen animation [plyback on PCs (33mhz 486 no less), and DCTV is
better.
Much Much Much!!! higher than I can get out of my Amiga with Lightwave <big
grin>. As John said, it depends upon the amount of memory you have. Almost
unlimited with 24 bit color. Of course if you run out of ram it will start
swapping to disk so in theory it would be limited only by the amount of
time you wanted to wait on the output.
But, it does cost a bunch of bucks more than your DCTV setup does <g>.
Ahhhhhh!!!!!! I must have Written a Gibberish Question since neither you
nor John Answered what I "THOUGHT" I asked.I "Thought" I asked what was
the Max REZ that 3D Studio can render VIEWABLE Animations NOT Requiring
Single Frame Equipment.I figure VGA or maybe SVGA at 256 colors is
possible in realativley realtime but anything more is Pushing things.
Sorry Folks if I wasn't Clear on this when I asked the question.It must be
the STRAIN of working Days again after all these years of working PM's
I think the max is 1024 x 768 x 256 but I know you can do 640 x 480 x 256.
I always output to the later so I'm sure all of my friends will be able to
display it.
I'll try a 1024 x 768 .flc and see if it works.
Recording a playback yes, but I *KNOW* you aren't rendering to tape in real
time.. So I'll assume thats what you meant..
DOs machines are not tied to custom chips like the amiga is.. 3d studio
will render in anything from as low as 320×200 256 colors to 2048×2048
16.8million colors and it will animate in those resolutions as well. You
see, 3D studio is a product of the same company as AutoCad and as such uses
the same format for display drivers…. AutoCad (more copies out there than
amigas probably) is so popular that companies designed entirely new video
boards just for it… In fact I think I remember seeing 4096×4096 video
board and monitor combo's…
As far as people like you/me… we could probably afford a $500 video
display device if we were serious about 3D… That would buy you a card
capable of 800×600 16.8million colors or 1280×1024 256 colors… Those are
true colors too.. NTSC is only a few million…
Hardware/Software wise the DOS platform is now pretty far ahead… However
the amiga is a little more fun to produce on, and also adapts to video
easily so that is why the 3d market is one of the stronger points of the
amiga…. In fact with 040 boards and the a4000 I'm sure a lot of
professionals will stick with the amiga whereas prior to that they would
have been forced to switch to dos/mac machines just because of the
incredible speed boost you get with an on-board FPU….
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Sorry, but NTSC does use a 16.8 million colour palette when you have a 24
bit output device. NTSC can be a little misleading too, the name has most
to do with resolution and scanline timing than the colour side of it.
Compare PAL to NTSC. PAL has a higher resolution, but a slower speed.
Most Amiga models only have the old HAM palette, which doesn't go above 5K
colour. They ALL still have NTSC, though. If you want to output 16.8
million, the Amigas can accomodate it with the proper device.
Vance
P.S. You are probably thinking more along the line of DCTV, which is in
the range (guesstimated) of 4 to 6 million colours.
I think that NTSC is bandwidth limited to about DCTV color range, what DCTV
lacks is horiz. resolution to make the images sharp.
If you are referring to the amount of displayable colour, then I could be
more easily nudged to agree. I was referring to the palette of 16.8m which
the final displayed image draws its colouring from.
Vance
Rendering output is not tied to the custom chips. 3D rendering programs
on the Amiga can (and has) output in those resolutions for professional
production in both magazines (like .INFO, Video Toaster User, and AVID)
and for TV shows like the upcoming Babylon 5. You can also get excellent
preview results on the Amiga 4000 with decent resolution and colors.
That $500 will cover the cost of the video card (actually, it'll more than
cover it), but you can't animation in those high color (16mil) resolutions
with acceptable results. If you throw more hardware at it and go the
local bus route, you'll probably be able to do it, but that's more money.
And getting that out to tape will cost yet more money.
Steve
Joe,
As far as I can tell (my experience being limited to PC vs. Amiga, I've got
2 PC's and one '040 2000) when you talk about speed you might as well leave
PC's out of the picture. If speed is what you want you need to leave home
computers behind and go for a Crimson Elan SGI or the like. Frankly, from
conversations I have had with IBM programmers there are no 3D rendering
packages for the PC that come closeto what the Amiga can do. PC based
ray-tracers work overnight on a 50mhz 486 to do what my Amiga can do in an
a few hours. Besides, the Video Toaster and products now on the verge of
introduction are going to be so far ahead of the game in sheer production
value (as opposed to Autocad technical value) that my PC will be relegated
to bookkeeping and CorelDraw graphics.
Certainly the PC platform has its incredibly strong support and the Mac has
and will be the choice of graphic artists for years to come. I think many
will be surprised at what the Amiga will be doing in a year or two, not to
mention what it already does now.
Jim Roof
(APPLAUSE)
That comparison of the main personal computers (PC, Amiga and MacIntosh)
was about the most un-biased and most correct I've heard in a long time.
Thanks for putting in your 2 cents worth. *8>
Vance
Vance,
The way I look at it is this: I've got something I want to get done.
Whatever tools are available, I'll look at them. I really wish that the
Amiga had more support but when it comes to animation, I know that I made
the correct decision (all things considered).
BTW, how fast is Autodesk 3D Studio? I saw in the ASOFT forum a nice
rendering that said was produced in what appeared to be 4 minutes. Or am I
reading it wrong? It could have been 4 hours. It appeared to have some
raytracing. The reason I ask is this. I just got an Autodesk 3D Concepts
for Windows on my PC (33mhz 386). It takes longer for a very very simple
wireframe/solid surface (no phong or gouraud support) to render than for
Lightave to do a good High res phong with bump mapping and the like. It is
uselessly slow. Nice features, just slllooowwwww.
Jim Roof
Well, by my being so fanatically dedicated to the Amiga, I, and the
others, have had the influence on there being products that are here
today. The influence was made by taking the risk of trying different
things.
I know other platforms can do alot too, but multi-tasking had a huge
impact on me when I decided to get my first Amiga. The other platforms
have variations of multi-tasking now, but I still believe the Amiga (on
the personal computing side) handles it the best, since its had the
longest experience with it.
I haven't used AutoDesk 3D, but have heard it has some great features. I
think it might be slower in some respects, because we sometimes forget
that PC's have no chip sets like the Amiga, to take much of the demands
off of the main processor. That's why speed comparisons are apples to
oranges. I, personally, wouldn't use AutoDesk 3D with anything less than a
33mhz 486.
Personally, when I first started with computers, I lusted long and hard
after IBM clones, then was impressed with the fresh approach of Apple, but
still didn't feel things were going are far as I had hoped for.
Then the Amiga 1000 came out, and left the others in the dust with the
Juggler demo pooh-poohing the PC and Apple cheapy graphics. With the A4000
and A1200 out now, I had that same feeling all over again.
I don't really begrudge anyone using other systems, I just want to do what
I can to push the envelope of the system I use.
Things will always improve because of the strong competition. Vive la
difference! *8>
Vance
Jim.
Where can I find out more about the Amiga for doing animation and 3-D
graphics? I would like to know the cost and equipment/software needed for a
home setup… I would like to be able to do animation like in the Listerine
comercials and maybe some music videostuff like MTV…
Thanks Steven Walters 70524,634
Your question is a little bit like asking "how can I get from here to
Portland?" There are different roads as well as different methods of
transportation. I use Lightwave 3D (comes bundled with the Video Toaster
which serves as the 24bit output). I have an Amiga 2000HD accelerated with
(I type too fast) a GVP 33mhz '040, two 120 meg hard drives, a Syquest 88
and a Panasonic AG7750 to record singleframe to. I feel that this is a
pretty good setup but the final output image quality for good broadcast is
not there yet due to the lacking composite side of the 7750 (as well as the
SVHS format, you really need to go 1 inch or Betacam SP).
All in all, the stuff ain't cheap but consider the alternatives. I would
find a good dealer and pick their brains. I will say this, Do not let them
talk you into any other bundled package other than the Toaster. Ie., I
hear that the GVP ImpactVision has a really poor 3D program (a stripped
down Caligari2 that supports 24bit). If you can afford it, get the
Toaster. The new realease of Lightwave is rumored to be outstanding.
Jim Roof
Thanks Jim!
Is/When is the Amiga 4000 supposed to be Toaster compaitable? What are the
advantages of the 4000 compared to others in the line? Tell me more! Do you
have any phone numbers of companies like NewTek or CBM to find out more
about Toaster and the Amiga line?
Thanks again –Steve Walters 70524,634
I'm not sure that the Toaster will be made compatible with the 4000. The
4000 uses a differnet custom chip set. The Toaster was built around the
older chips.
Jim Rooof
Steve:
Have you tried to locate an Amiga User Group in your area?
Where could I find a users group? I'd love to contact one of them!!! I'll
try to get a Mag this weekend!
stevew
Where are you located? There is a pretty complete listing of User Groups
in AC's Guide to the Amiga.
Wait a sec… ALL accelerated amigas before the '040 had math coprocessors
(ok not including 68010 hacks which shouldn't be called accelerated). Its
the MAc that had alot of 020s and 030s without math chips, and w
software requirements.
Joe Thanx for the info on 3D Studio,I AM looking at other Platforms but at
the moment I also need to look at the Bottom Line.$235 for Imagine 2.0
which can Render images at 8000*8000 REZ(tho God Know's what I'd view it
on) "WINS" over 3D Studio which lists for $2995(I have no idea of the
Street Price).as to Autocadd having more copies out there than their are
Amiga's I don't Doubt it considering their are something like 25 Times the
# of IBM/Clones sold than Amiga's.
I got a 7 disk set of IPAS 3dstudio add ons, and some were kinda cool, but
nothing which could make me move away from LightWave, which is FAR superior
to 3ds for output quality.
Please explain your statement. Why is the Lightwave output superior to 3D
Studio's output? If you mean Toaster's output ( signal wise ) as compared
to a Targa board then yes I agree but do you mean the files it creates?
Actually the files, yes. The antialiasing is more sophisticated, and there
are things k\like selectable ray-tracing and shadow mapping. This starts
getting real subjective when we talk about the look of the image, and 3ds
is great for many purposes. Also, I have been playin
with a pre-release LW version, which has spoiled me with some of its new
tricks…
Yea, but we can't talk about beta software <g>. I play with my share of
that stuff too! I totally agree that LW has the edge on Raytracing. 3DS
does not have this feature. Yes this is very subjective. I can't really
tell much difference between LW demo tapes and 3DS demo tapes. I find 3DS
easy to use and LW frustrating. I plan to do more serious LW
experimentation as soon as my wife says I can buy an 030 or 040 for it <g>.
Right now my 486-66 will just have to do. I also plan to tie my Amiga into
my Ethernet network at home to be able to use my single frame deck off of
one machine. Then I'll get real serious.
Ethernet works real nicely! Especially if you're used to floppies! ;-o
I downloaded Twin last weekend and it worked real nice. I'm going to
register it and use it untill I find an ethernet card for the A2000. Yea,
floppies are no fun!
What kind of speed can you get out of LightWave? On the dos side you can
use a 66mhz 486 and soon a Pentium processor…. The a4000 is only 25mhz
040… Are there 33mhz 040 accel's for the amiga yet?
I'd be curious to see some form of comparisons…. I would hope lightwave
is faster… just because AutoDesk doesn't exactly have a rep. for fast
coding…
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
I've got a 2000 with a 33mhz '040. It does about 23mips and just under 4
mflops. Even with Lightwave 2.0 (which is not '040 specific) I render
average 1504×960 frames (no raytracing and very little use of fractal maps)
in 7 or 8 minutes. If I completely fill the screen with phong shaded
objects of average polygonal density I render in about 15 minutes.
Lightwave 3.0 will be faster from what I hear. This increase in speed will
probably be due to two main reasons, '040 code and enhanced rendering
engine that allows for controllable antialiasing in all resolutions.
I want to know how fast is 3DS? Just curious.
Jim Roof
Speaking of amazing results….I'm posting a message about the specs of
the new version of Real-3D. If it lives up to the specs, it will really
blow everything else that's currently out complerely away. 🙂
Look for the specs in the Hot news section.
Steve
This does sound like great (Real 3D 2.0) s/w !!! I wonder how easy it will
be to use all of these features, to me that is absolutely the most
important part.
Been looking for something better than LW but havent found anything yet!!!
Be sure to keep us informed.
Later
I'm just wondering how much it will cost….
If I find out anything else, I'll let you know.
Steve
Joe,
be careful before casually tossing around terms like "66 MHz 486". The
PC world is well-known for its tendency to play footloose and fancy-free
with numbers such as clock speed. Usually, the number printed in big bold
type in those computer ads represents the fastest speed at which a section
of the chip runs. How about the rest of the chip? How about your main
memory? More importantly, how about the bus that connects the two? There
are countless bottlenecks in a typical PC architecture, but those
trumpeting ads won't tell you about them.
Blaq!