#Toaster Y/C?
21 messages in this thread
I'm attempting to upgrade the quality of my S-VHS/Toaster editing
system. I've got two 1970's, Kitchen Sync, Toaster 2000 w/ 3.0
software, 486 with TAO editizer. I'd like to improve the video signal
by converting to S-Video through the Toaster, and would appreciate
any advise. I've already budgeted for the DPS Personal V-Scope and
and weighing options between the Nova Y/C and the Y/C Plus. Are there
other options? I believe I've seen a Y/C Plus + advertised as well as
the DPS Personal Component Adaptor. Basically, I'm looking for the
best way to put S-Video through the Toaster. Any help here would be
greatly appreciated.
Later, Jim
Let me know what the verdict is because I've got a very similar set-up and am
going thru' the same agony.
(Editizer+Sanyo GVRS950+Sony CVD-1000+Canon-L1+Sony R5+A4000+Toaster + Kitchen
Sync … etc.. etc…)
Any Composit to Y/C decoder and Y/C to composite encoder is a
potential solution for you. However, the Y/C Plus does both,
connects to the Toaster internally (so I believe it is actaully a Y/C
to D2 and D2 to Y/C converter) and requires a Zorro slot. Video
processing by Faroujda Labs. The Nova Y/C card only decodes the
Toaster output to Y/C. Your inputs would still be composite. I
believe the DPS PCA has the capacity to deliver Y/C in and out as
well as Y/R-Y/B-Y. It likewise requires a Zorro slot. The Y/C ++ is
sorta back to the external encoder/decoder pair idea except it is all
in one box, and is external to the Amiga with its own
plug-in-the-wall power supply. The last three, I think< rely on
adaptive comb filtering whereas the Y/C plus has proprietary Faroujda
filtering ans seperation logic on board.
Spec wise the Y/C plus is a tad better than thge Y/C ++ and I have nos
spec sheets on the others. The differences, I think are probably down in
the noise below shich the human eye could detect a diffrernce. Everything
mentioned above except Y/C ++ and standard encoder decoder boxes go in the
machine, and that could be a consideration for a 4000 system.
Last point. If the footage is shot with a dirty, maladjusted, low res
camera, or your feeders are out of alignment, dirty or worn, adding Y/C to
you system will only make the problems much easier to spot – it won't cure
then or put back resolution that is not there to start with.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with your advice to Jim regarding
the Y/C PLUS versus the Y/C++. First let's settle a very important
misconception about the INTERNAL connections that the Y/C PLUS makes to the
Toaster;
The Y/C PLUS uses unshielded ribbon cables to connect to the COMPOSITE input
taps that are on the edge connectors on the Toaster circuit board. These
connections share the same signal path as the external BNC input connections to
the Toaster. There is absolutely NO ADVANTAGE to using these edge connections
as opposed to the BNC connectors. To the contrary, because the Y/C PLUS is
using UNSHEILDED cables to pass the video signal to the Toaster, there is more
likelyhood of interference to the video signal from adjacent components inside
the computer such as the power supply and fan. Speaking of power supplies,
smith Audio Visual recommends a larger unit than the one that comes standard on
most Amigas for proper operation.
Regarding your statement about the Farujia circuitry;
The component the Y/C PLUS uses to do the comb filtering is nearly identical to
that used by both the PCA from DPS and the Prime Image Y/C++. The Y/C PLUS
board was indeed designed and manufactured by Farujia labs, but the comb
filtering is "adaptive" just as the others are. I have compared chromanance and
luminance specifications using test equipment and industry standard test
patterns on the Prime Image unit as well as the Y/C PLUS and could not
determine any specific technical performance advantage for either unit.
After all my comparison shopping, I chose the Prime Image unit because of the
following advantages;
Being an external unit, it didn't require power from my computer or take up
valuable slots in my 4000.
The Toaster's inputs are individually capable of using either Y/C OR composite
via easy to reach external switches.
The Toaster's program output is continuously available in three different video
signals: Y/C, composite, and component (Switchable between MII and Betacam).
I can understand that you are pleased with the performance of your unit, but I
would have to say that enough time has passed for other companies to bring
products to market that offer improvements that were driven by customer needs
that were not met by the Y/C PLUS. Given the importance some people place on
the advice given on this forum, I felt it was appropriate to respond to your
statements with some new information.
Frank
Frank, I guess you answered my questions. thanks, george
Frank,
I'm not evangelizing the Y/C Plus. In fact I'm putting a client into a
Y/C++ for the external and betacam reasons with no nervousness at all
about wheather he will be happy. My message before was based on the spec
sheets as I'v never seen a Y/C++ in person. If you look soley at the
speck sheets, Y/C plus looks ever so slightly better, but not in a way
that the human eye could detect. Their manual also implies that the
filtering they use is superior to the standard adaptive filtering because
it is able to eliminate more of the dot crawl. Then they show a graph
with Y/C plus resoution at about 480 and a printed spec of "better than
450" as opposed to Y/C++ with "450". There other specs also say things
like "better than" or "less than" or ar ever so slightly better
numerically than the Y/C++. The Y/C to D2 was something one of the two
booths that was hawking Y/C Plus at NAB told me. Sounded reasonable to
me, so I bought it – the reasoning that is – I already owned one. (I am
kinda gullible, but I DID NOT believe the DPS guy who told me that the DPS
TBC-on-a-card units where the only ones that were truly broadcast
compliant – should I have done?) Also, I planned to get a Y/C++ or other
external solution if/when I sell one of the 2000 Toaster set-ups I have
now so that I can get a 4000 for my 4000T that is sitting in a box on the
floor here, and have room for the AmiLink. (Unless I sell that which I
would LOVE to do so I can get a real controller instead of someones
software hobby project.)
The fact that you have access to all these "Toaster Boosters" and test
equip to check on the specmanship of the respective companies would, I
hope, encourage a formal "face-off" article with pictures, numbers and
charts in a mag like VTU. (Hint, hint :^).
So on another subject, have you had occasion to check the specmanship of
the Magni MM-400 vs the Hamlet HV 301? Can't afford Tektronix or Leader
and I just need be able to tune Toaster input sources and monitor outputs
for correct levels and phase – don't need super diagnostics, but also
don't want an internal card unit.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with Wayn'e advice to you
regarding the Y/C PLUS versus the Y/C++. First let's settle a very
important misconception about the INTERNAL connections that the Y/C
PLUS makes to the Toaster;
The Y/C PLUS uses unshielded ribbon cables to connect to the COMPOSITE
input taps that are on the edge connectors on the Toaster circuit
board. These connections share the same signal path as the external
BNC input connections to the Toaster. There is absolutely NO
ADVANTAGE to using these edge connections as opposed to the BNC
connectors. To the contrary, because the Y/C PLUS is using UNSHEILDED
cables to pass the video signal to the Toaster, there is more
likelyhood of interference to the video signal from adjacent
components inside the computer such as the power supply and fan.
Speaking of power supplies, smith Audio Visual recommends a larger
unit than the one that comes standard on most Amigas for proper
operation.
Regarding Wayne's statement about the Farujia circuitry;
The component the Y/C PLUS uses to do the comb filtering is nearly
identical to that used by both the PCA from DPS and the Prime Image
Y/C++. The Y/C PLUS board was indeed designed and manufactured by
Farujia labs, but the comb filtering is "adaptive" just as the others
are. I have compared chromanance and luminance specifications using
test equipment and industry standard test patterns on the Prime Image
unit as well as the Y/C PLUS and could not determine any specific
technical performance advantage for either unit.
After all my comparison shopping, I chose the Prime Image unit because
of the following advantages;
Being an external unit, it didn't require power from my computer or
take up valuable slots in my 4000.
The Toaster's inputs are individually capable of using either Y/C OR
composite via easy to reach external switches.
The Toaster's program output is continuously available in three
different video signals: Y/C, composite, and component (Switchable
between MII and Betacam).
Hope this info helps.
Frank & Wayne,
I appreciate your help on this matter. However, I believe I'm not much
more enlightened than I was. The Y/C Plus and the Y/C ++ Both
basically perform the same level of encoding. The Y/C ++ may have an
advantage in that it is an external unit with it's own power supply
and is externally switchable to accept Composite input. Where does
this leave the DPS Personal Component Adaptor? Does this unit
perform the same basic functions, or does it add some? I've ruled
out the Nova Y/C because of it's lack of accepting S-Vid input, but on
a cost/performance basis, any ideas on which of the other three to go
with? Y/C Plus, Y/C ++ or DPS Personal Component Adaptor?
Hello Frank…..
Yep… the Y/C Plus does use ribbon cable to connect their board to the Toaster
card. Personally – without making any measurements – I don't think it does
naughty things to the signal. At least nothing I can see by my aged eyes.
Personally I am more concerned with the quality of the Y/C type cables feeding
from the outside. Some are just four insulated wires within a rubber/neoprene
cover. No shielding whatsoever. We gave up buying them because most were so
lousy. We now put together our own cables with the mini type 75 Ohm cable and
the rotten little mini-DIN connectors.
The answer as to which of the transcoders is best should come by way of the
client – and how well the production house can convince them that what they see
NOW – is far better than before!
All the best, Hilary.
Hilary,
Thanks for jumping in on the thread, it helps to have other info for those
interested in this topic.
I really wasn't trying to knock the Y/C PLUS, it's great for what it is, and it
answered a specific need when it was introduced. I just wanted to make the
point to Jim and thers monitoring the topic, that I purchased the Y/C++ because
it offerred several advantages that were appealing to me. I also wnted to clear
up the misconception people have had about the Y/C PLUS's supposed "digital"
connectors.
Frank
Frank,
I appreciate your info on the Y/C debate. Based on the Spec Sheet (which was
faxed minutes after my calling–KUDOS) and on what I perceive as a strong
product line, I purchased the DPS Personal Component Adaptor to answer my
Toaster suite's Y/C needs. I hope I haven't made a wrong decision, but for
449.00, seemed like a reasonable solution to putting S-Video in and out of the
Toaster. Anyone here had any experience with the DPS PCA? I'll report on how
it affects the performance level of my Toaster when I recieve shipment.
Later, Jim
Jim,
First let me say that I am not in the same league of video expertise
as Frank Vanella. I am a serious video *amateur* using an Amiga
4000, Toaster 4000, two DPS TBC IV's, and the DPS Personal Component
Adapter in an editing suite for the purpose of working with my home
videos. My acquisition source is a Sony VX3 three chip camcorder. I
don't have any professional equipment for making video measurements
so my conclusions are based on what I see with my own two eyes on my
27 in. NEC monitor and also when viewing the edited tapes (S-VHS via
a Panasonic AG-1960) on my Sony 1042Q commerical projector displayed
on a six foot high gain screen. I feel that both the TBC IV's and
the DPS Personal Component adapter made a very marked improvement in
the quality of my edited tapes. I think you will be quite happy with
the results produced by the PCA. I use S-video inputs all the way to
the Toaster and ouput S-video from the PCA to the AG-1960. The
resulting edited tapes have far less color blooming and video noise
than I had noticed prior to the PCA and TBC IV's. Toaster graphics
and animations are beautifully free of chroma noise and other video
artifacts. In short, I feel this system more than meets my
requirements. It's hard for me to know how much the quality is due to
the TBC IV's and how much is due to the PCA since I installed both
simultaneously. One more point: I can flip an input switch on the
Panasonic AG-1960 and immediately compare the Toaster's composite
program output with the program output from the PCA's S-video. The
comparison is revealing and clearly in favor of the PCA's S-video.
Hope some of this helps.
Tom,
Thanks for the confirmation on the DPS PCA. My main concern was which Y/C
adaptor would suit my needs. It sounds that the improvements you noticed are
just the problems I'm trying to correct on my Toaster/1970's edit system. I'm
not sure which of the options is the BEST in the Y/C upgrade path, and there
may not be a "BEST" Y/C adaptor since they all offer different advantages for
different uses. I chose the PCA mainly because of Price, Availability from my
chosen supplier, and reputation of Digital Processing Systems.
Later, Jim
Tom-
Glad to see you still going like gang-busters 🙂
When you flip back and forth between PCA and Toaster composite where do
you see the differences. Do the edges of red and orange look sharper, less
blooming?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Paul,
With the caveat that it's always difficult to describe the characteristics
of a color image with words, I would state that the S-video output from
the Toaster/PCA is sharper (i.e. less soft looking), there is much less
noise in saturated colors especially reds, the chroma and luminance
signals show greater coincidence, i.e. there is less blooming of color
outside the edges of objects, and colors are more vibrant and "natural"
looking than when I view the Toaster's composite program output. Frankly,
I always thought my composite output was pretty good until I did the A/B
comparison with the S-video of the PCA/Toaster output. The difference is
readily apparent.
Tom
Tom, quick question. I am using a similar configuration to you, TBC
IV, PCA. I'm outputing to a EVO 9700 and have been pleased with the
results. In a test that I did taking source down 5 generation, it was
noticable the difference between the composite and Y/C output.
Anyway, a problem I am having is that DV3 is not clean on the Y/C
side. It is noticable with black or white backgrounds and appears
like too much luminance causing noise and waves in the matte. It is
not present when I switch to composite. Have you heard of anything
like this? Any suggestions would be apprciated. Thanks. Doug
Doug,
Sorry, but I have not really experienced anything like you describe with
DV3. When I have some time over the Thanksgiving holiday, I'll look
closely and see if I have just missed the problem you are describing.
I'll get back to you on this.
Tom
HiYa Frank (Trying to sound like a Yank <g>)
No…. I do not hold up any banner for most pieces of equipment. No sooner does
one celebrate the arrival of that ONE widget to end all widgets than you read,
hear or see something better.
The point I wanted to make was a warning about lousy Y/C cables. If one can use
a soldering iron, you can make up very good cables yourself. If anyone is
interested – would be glad to supply name of vendor – and his prices – for the
mini DIN plugs also the twin co-ax' cable.
Nice to see you around. Hilary
I could use those part numbers 🙂
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
OK Paul. We got our last supply of both Y/C Mini DIN Plugs, also the twin 75
Ohm Co-ax cable from:-
MARKERTEK VIDEO SUPPLY,
4, High Street – Box 397
Saugerties. NY.12477 Phone: 800-522-2025
From their latest catalog (1994)……
Cat Page – 9.
S-VHS (Y/C) type 4 Pin Mini-DIN Plug: (Cat # SVHS-4M) @ $1.89 EA.
Cat Page – 18.
Premium S-VHS Bulk Cable. (Cat # SVHS-BC) 1 to 499 Ft. @ $0.49 / Ft.
500 Plus Ft. @ $0.38 / Ft.
I would also ask for theit catalog. You will need a very small soldering iron
for making the connections. Check afterwards with a magnifying glass for
good connections and/or any shorts – also check for continuity.
Good luck – and best regards, Hilary.