#Market Survey
55 messages in this thread
Mark,
As one who has just entered the Amiga scene, I'd be very interested in your
feeling about the show. I know you liked it, but i'm sort of wondering if it
met your expectations, if any of the offerings really surprised you, etc.
Regards, Larry.
Larry,
It's pretty interesting to me, being one that's been in the ST market for
quite awhile. The hardware (68020 boards, Genlocks, Video Toaster etc) are
quite advanced, but the software has a way to go. ST software is more polished
now, and there's more available. It's like the software developers are waking
up and smelling the coffee. The Amiga is a heck of a machine, and I think that
the software out there is just beginning to scatch the surface of it's
capabilities The reason, I believe, is CBM. It was interesting to see
developers rail on CBM for bad business moves. It sounded like my developer
friends and I railing on Atari! Felt right at home<grin>. Anyway, we waited
until now to get into the Amiga because CBM kept screwing things up. There was
serious doubt as to whether the Amiga would survive. Amiga developers,
aparently, felt the same thing.
At the same time, Atari was doing quite well. They benefited by Amiga's hard
times. Now the Amiga is going strong, and as I see it, Max Toy has helped bring
that about. Now Atari is dropping the ball. I see a real possibility of CBM
buring Atari. Atari got real confident when the Amiga almost went under. Now
CBM is advertising and has their own "power without the price" machine. Atari
is pushing game machines.Sigh.
Didn't mean for this to be a commentary! Anyway, the show. There was a
lot of excitement, really seemed like the Amiga was "coming back". The video
addons were great. One of the best things CBM did was design the computer so
that the clock speed was controllable from the video port. Makes for a very
easy Genlock! The slots in the A2000 opens up a lot of possibilities. If CBM
handles it right the Amiga will do well. We will be supporting the Amiga for
sure. Mouse Master was a hit, and we will be selling it in the Amiga market.
Was great meeting you too!
Mark
Mark,
Sorry I missed meeting you at the show.
Yes, I think marketing and product decisions have recently seriously
hurt Atari and helped CBM. Atari raised prices on the existing ST line, then
came out with 2 and 4 meg machines — at about the same time that 1 meg chips
are almost financially prohibitive to buy. While Atari was concentrating on
the upper end (price-wise) market, CBM comes along with the 500 to make serious
inroads in the (now) overpriced 520/1040 market. Ain't free enterprise fun!?
Not to mention the fact that the margins dealers get selling Atari hardware
hardly makes it worth the effort. I think the only reason our store carries
ST's is to spur software sales, which do pretty well.
Not being much of a Jack Tramiel fan, though, I don't mind seeing Atari hike
prices… –Mike
Does your store sell both the ST and Amiga? How do software/hardware addons
sell for the Amiga compared to the ST?
Oh, and what is your stores name?
Mark
Yes, our store sells both the ST line and the Amiga line. Since the arrival of
the Amiga 500 this summer, Amiga sales have FAR outweighed ST sales. (Not that
I think the ST is a bad machine, but I do cringe when I see someone buying one
when they could have gotten an Amiga 500…oh, well) There really isn't much
in the way of ST hardware add-ons– external disk drives, and the occasional
MIDI cable are about the extent of it. It's hard to compare sales in that
department, but I'd say the Amiga beats the ST for hardware add-ons just
because of the extra variety: DigiView, sound digitizers and extra memory to
name a few.
What I've always thought was amusing is that dealer cost of, say, a 1040ST is
HIGHER than an Amiga 500, and we sell the Amiga 500 for about 3 times the
profit margin. If we sold the Amiga systems at the same margin as ST's we'd be
selling them for LESS. However, I'm happy to have the extra commission…
(nyuk nyuk) In fact, we get the best hardware margins from Amiga equipment.
The name of the store, by the way, is Diskcovery, in Falls Church, VA. To
distributors, though, we are Metro Software.
–Mike
Thanks for the info, that is what I thought. Our company sells Monitor
Master, which is a switchbox to switch between the Mono and RGB monitor on
the ST. Many folks have both monitors. We also have Mouse Master, a device
that allows one to switch between two devices in the first mouse/joystick
port, and brings out the second port. Especially useful for an Amiga 500 or
a Atari 520STFM or 1040. Diskcovery sounds familiar, I think we have sold
product to you! Mark
Better yet, Atari was shooting with a low-caliber gun; an ST, big memory or
not, can't hold a candle to a 500 for horsepower. Now that 500's are in the
hand of a significant # of end users, we should see some inexpensive ways to
make them big, memory-wise. –Ben–
Just Curious Ben,
But I saw my 1st ST the other day and it really looked nice. (Graphics
wise). What exactly makes the 500 better? Does the st have an interlace like
implemented on Amy jr? Just curious! Jo
Ok, Jo, fair question. <rubbing hands together>. First of all, the 500 does use
interlace…. the ST does not. This means that (A) 400 line mode on the ST does
NOT flicker. (B) the ST cannot display standard NTSC video, which in turn means
it and your VCR are incompatible. (C) it means that OUR 400 line mode DOES
flicker when using a stadard monitor (all that is available at this time). Now,
there are a LOT of other things, but I wanted to address that first, since you
brought it up. The ST's display is overall MUCH inferior to the Amiga's;
specifically, Since the color and monochrome modes require entirely different
handling, you need to rebbot and possibly change monitors to use them – unless
you have a multisync type monitor. Not the AMiga. The ST has FAR inferior color
capability; I have long since forgotten the details, but it is something like,
we can do any 32 of 4096 colors, they can do any 16 of 512 colors (I think
that's correct, too) We can show all 4096 colors (HAM mode) they can't, period.
16. hehe. We can have multiple graphics screens in multiple resolutions in
multiple color depths running under mutiple or single programs or a combination
thereof…. they can't. ANY of that. <grin> WE have hardware support for
sophisticated sound generation. THEY don't. We have a multitasking operating
system, they don't. That is important, as they can run only 1 main program at
once, unless they wish to give up all vestiges of ST-ness and run OS-9, a
wonderful operating system that won't let them do diddly with the sorry
hardware they DO have available to them. We have a marvelous many-channeled
logic engine misleadingly called a blitter. Why misleadingly? Only because
Atari has what they call a blitter, too; let me put it in perspective for you.
WE have a Lamborghini; THEY have a Hyundai. Really. <continued next message –
read thread>
Now; the Atari machines run a little bit faster, CPUclock wise, than the AMiga
does. 7.16 MHZ for us, about 8.0 MHZ for them (I think). Ok. In their machine,
their CPU does ALL the work. In our machine, The CPU, the Blitter, and the
other custom chips work together (without getting in each others way – we'll
get to that in a minute) to provide much MORE overall horsepower than the ST
has. Working together. An important concept in a multitasking machine (And
that's something the ST doesn't need to worry about – it doesn't multitask)
Now, when WE run OUR blitter, normally it doesn't need to get in the way of the
CPU. That means the blitter does it's thing, the CPU does seomthing else, and
lots of work is being accomplished. In the ST, their Hyundai, ooops, blitter,
smacks the CPU in the head with a rolling pin, says, go the heck to sleep, and
does it's thing. Then, after a while, the blitter relinquishes control and
hands control back to the CPU. Which wake up, does some work, and promptly gets
smacked in the head again, back to sleep. The upshot of this is that the ST's
blitter and CPU do NOT work together – they alternate total control of the
machine. Not us. We share tha machine all the time, getting twice as much done.
Aside from THAT, our blitter can do about a zillion differnt logic operations;
theirs is vastly inferior, allowing only a small subset of these to occur. Now
let's rake the sounds over the coals. The Amiga has what is really pretty good
sound – not studio quality, but still, very enjoyable and VERY flexible. Notice
the speech synthesis? Ever notice you can run Sonix playing a tune while your
machine is doing a directory of a disk? Well, we have our sound hardware going,
the CPU cranking away sorting the directory, the Blitter beating the disk to
death, Blitter ALSO running sounds, CPU ALSO calculating sound stuff for
Blitter to hum at the sound output circuitry; Not the St. No, sir. <continued>
First of all, the ST doesn't have the hardware to DO any of this neat stuff;
not the displays, and not the sounds. It's overal quality, no matter how it
accomplishes it, is below that of an AMiga in EVERY catagory – less colors, no
multitasking, only 1 screen at a time, crummy sounds, cpu-hogging blitter that
has only a slight shadow of the functionality of ours, and just generally
doesn't hold up to an Amiga. Am I biased? Sure! If I wasn't, I'd be out of my
mind… I LIKE multitasking, lotsa colors, neat sounds. Of course, I draw, I'm
a musician, I'm a developer of software for the Amiga, a programmer, and a
user. Trying to satisfy all those needs on an ST is like giving milk to a
junkie. Could the Amiga be improved? Yes, sure – ask anyone – I raise probably
enuf complaints about the machine to annoy EVERYONE here at one time or
another. But…. it still beats an ST, hands down, every time. All that having
been said, I would say a couple of other things. I think that one reason the ST
has gotten so much software produced for it is because it's a very simple peice
of hardware. The Amiga is something that you really have to dig into to learn
how to make it jump through hoops, performance wise. THere's a LOT more you
have to be careful of, when you're writing software, because you absolutely
MUST NOT EVER step on another program's toes, so to speak. It's harder.
Developers see that as a longer road to $$$, and they're right. I have an
opinion about that, but I'll keep it, thanks. <grin>. Additionally, the ST was
cheaper than the A1000; it is now in deeeep trouble from the A500 Amiga, which
is VERY price competitive, and outperforms it without even half trying. The
A500 is a better machine. Period. any questions? <stepping off soapbox> –Ben–
Bravo!!!!!!
Yah!!!! Go, Ben, Go!!! <grin, snicker (ST??) GUFFAW!!>
–Gabe
Let 'em eat dirt.
Ben,
Your message was incredibly biased and opinionated and I just wanted to say
that I agree with every word and I loved it!
Darron
Thank you sir, I've spent a lot of time developing that bias. <grin>
–Ben–
Ben could you do PS/2 & OS/too slow ?
Gee Ben, you sound a lot like a few car salesmen I have been listening to
lately. Are you sure your not a closet Toyota salesman? <grin>
later Greg H
Questions? Well, before you get off your soapbox <grin>, how about
continuing with these points…
1. Idris, a Unix-like derivative, has just been announced for the ST and
Mega computers. Being a rather "mature" version of Unix, this may(?) help
the conception of the Atari not being a multi-tasking system.
2. Atari has just "acquired" the Abaq system for their ST and Mega
computers. Will this help them leap frog into the high-end workstation
arena and eclipse what the Amiga is doing (<hmmm>)?
3. Network Research Corporation is going to be moving Fusion Network
Software to ST and Mega systems possibly(?) making them a viable
workstation in the Unix arena.
(heading for cover…) David Masterson
Any computer can have a multitasking OS loaded into it. problem is, if it
doesn't come with it, it can hardly be called a multitasking computer, as
most people will not shell out the extra bucks for the privilege.
Abaq…. vapour, more vapour. Atari likes to make announcements. They don't
deliver on most of them.
networking… for about $900, you too can have a viable network.
Amersitar's Ethernet controller, NFS, and NeWS makes the A2000 quite a
fascinating addon to a network.
Regards, Larry.
Unix, while fine for the VERY small group of people who use it, in it's
personae as IDRIS or plain vanilla, will be all but useless to the cadre of
people who _Currently_ own the ST. None of their current software will run
under it; actually, it'll require they dump the system. The conception
isn't the issue; The fact will be that the machine will be starting "fresh"
from the applications program point of view. I can just see you telling Joe
Atari, no, you can't use that software; sorry, it don't do windows. Or YOUR
windows.
The Abaq system? High End workstation? nope. They can't possibly leapfrog
the Amiga without a superior hardware/software system – they don't have the
hardware, and applying a NEW software system that obsoletes (read, makes
useless under the auspices of) the original software base will put the
machine in the unenviable position of a brand new entry into the market. No
prize there.
NetWorking? Here we go again; incompatible with EVERYTHING that is
currently available, we start at square one. Now…. in stark contrast to
this is the AMiga, which is at the middle of year three in it's software
curve; We ALREADY have a COMPATIBLE network system (Ameristar, for one –
Ethernet? I dunno)
We ALREADY have multitasking, we ALREADY have all the hardware to run all
this stuff on; Should CBM have the foresight to provide us with a MMU, it
can go in the system and we'll never have to know about it, unless we're
microsoft (snicker) or EA (Snicker some more). We ALREADY and STILL!!! have
the MOST powerful ->>> combination <<< – of hardware of any micro out
there; granted a 386 or 020 machine has more compute-power, raw, but WE
have a reeeaaallly nice blitter engine, drop-in compatible 020 (and 030!)
capability without changing a THING in the software, Good graphics, etc.
We're all set, considering. The BEST that Atari or IBM can do is start now,
today, from scratch, with brand new software, talk their users into it,
talk their developers into it, keep it cheap so it can compete with the
500, and hope that in the 2.5 years it'll take them to get where the amiga
is now, the amiga stands still. –Ben– (Chortle!)
D**n, and he did it in one message… 8^)
Actually, I agreed with you before I put up that message. It was just
that you were leaving out such an IMPORTANT (hehe) set of points (at least in
Atari's view). Take a bow, Ben.
David Masterson
As far as networking is concerned, I know someone who has a 2000 with the
Ameristar board and it's happily coexisting with all the Sun workstations.
He's waiting for Xwindows.
They've probably done this already, but…
(1) Whatever Irdis is, it ain't "a stable version of UNIX". You can't
run UNIX without an MMU. Well, you CAN. We did it once. You get
about 10 syscalls/second. Remember, UNIX things all like to run
at location 0.
(2) Do I worry about ABAQ infiltrating the workstation market. Not for
awhile, bud. I don't think Apollo, Sun, and DEC are loosing any
sleep either. Would you spend $5000 on an unproven piece of hardware
running an untested and brand new operating system purchased from a
company who could very well throw in a couple of their 2600 video games?
Not me…
(3) Never heard of that one. Amiga already has Ethernet hardware, TCP/IP
and NFS software, The X Windowing System Real Soon Now. That's what
most all the Workstations are using. Why use something I can't hook my
Suns or DECs to? Maybe once I'm the leader, but certainly not coming
out of nowhere.
-Dave
Gee Ben! Just read your 3 part message. 🙂 LOVED IT! Though my favourite is
the one you told us in LA….well Garden Grove/Anaheim (smiiile). You know…
The permutated pixel theory?! HAR! -GreG
Ben, Thank you for you well thought out answer to my 1 line question! 😉
I hope you dont mind but I have printed the answers so that I have some
ammunition next time Im in the enemies camp. It sure would have done me some
good when the only thing I could say was Multitasking (as if that isnt enough)
but they countered that "Supposedly Atari was offering that as an option _real
soon_".
In fact I may re-read it a few times just to increase my amiga
intellegence! (or lack of). If half of the developers have half your beliefs
then I forsee a great time ahead for C=A! Lets hope so.
Thanks again;
jo
Do I _mind_ ????? Har! Listen – use it in good health. Nuke a few ataroids for
me, will you? <grin> –ben–
Jo:
You should have been in L.A. Ben is just one of the many 'just
slightly crazy' developers with carefully cultivated bias and nearly
unquenchable enthusiam.
What is really nice about that kind of bias is that it does not
fail to see the machine's shortcommings. Nothing much worse than a
computer Priest that fails to see that there are other way and other
reasons for doing things than the 'one right way.'
By the way Ben did fail to mention (I think) that the Amy custom
chips can and do take over the processor's time slot now and then. Of
course when they do they are clipping along at a rather high speed (full
memory bandwith — 14 MHz). 73, bill
I didn't mention it because it's a usable option; as opposed to the
"feature" of the ST's blitter eating 1/2 the bus bandwidth for you if you
use it at all, for the duration of the operation. Although, as you point
out, that mode uses ALL the bandwidth, runs like the very devil. –Ben–
(Optionally!)
Ben:
I mentioned it because there are those in the ST camp that might
counter with 'but the custom chips in the Ami also steal cycles from the
processor.' So the answer is sure they can but you get about twice the
throuput of the ST when they do. 73, bill
If they ST is a Hyundai, I wouldn't quite call the Amiga a Lamborghini. I
think A Honda analogy would be more appropriate. A CRX for the A500, and
the Sports Model Accord for the 2000. 🙂 🙂 🙂 (-: (-: (-:
Well, _I_ would; I see a Lambourghini as a sleek, beautiful, moderate
performance car. After all, my motorcycle will go faster; but it's not as
pretty. Now, a 68030 machine…. perhaps _that_ would be a Vector. 250
mph+, etc…. Honda Accord? Sheeesh! Actually, if the Amiga is _only_ a
Lamboughini, then perhaps I should have described the ST as a moped. most
other machines fit in the catagory of bycycles, with the exception of those
that use intel processors – those are only tricycles. Meant for those with
no balance, and no pride. <grin> — Ben —
Are you guys talking about cars or something? Or the Browns? Why muddle your
brain with non-computer information?
Yep, they really blew it. They could've made it very difficult for the Amiga to
come back, but got overconfident. Now they couldn't turn the tide if they
wanted to.
Actually they concentrated on game machines this Christmas – wanted to "take
back" the game market, as I heard it. Want to compete with Nitendo.
They did this probably 'cause they saw more profits this way than to produce
computers. Oh well.
Yep, free enterprise is fun! Now we will support the Amiga, and ST sales are
better than ever (our ST product sales, that is). It's gonna be a good year!
Mark
Thanks Mark. Your viewpoint is unique, in that you are just coming over to the
Amiga, have a product for it already, etc. it will be interesting to see how
you feel about it in a few months or a year. Here's wishing you luck with Amiga
products.
Regards, Larry.
Thanks Larry. For one thing, I'm not really an ST fanatic, nor will I be a
Amiga fanatic. I used to be a "power user", program like crazy (published a 30K
ML game for the Atari 800 looong ago) but I simply don't have time for that
anymore. We did get the Amiga, and I really like it. Disk access seems slow,
and the user interface is awkward, but I think I'll get used to it.
I'm used to developing product in spite of the computer companies
management, so I think we'll get along fine<grin>.
I _do_ have to be excited about the computers we develop for (couldn't get
into developing for big blue) however. The Amiga is a great computer so that
isn't a problem.
Mark
Mark, what game did you publish for the Atari 800? Marlene
It was published by Analog, called "Popcorn". Was a couple of years ago, I
think. Mark
I'm not familiar with "Popcorn" as my Atari 800 days began about 8 yrs ago, and
pretty much ended a couple of years ago when I got my Amiga.
Marlene
Yep, a lot of 800 owners went toward the Amiga, since Jay Miner designed both
of them. Was considered the next "Atari" even, by a lot of people.
Mark
Oh, surprises. What surprised me the most was the 68030 board. Amazing that
someone would design such a product for the Amiga, being a small market as far
as computers go. They have probably found out what we did, that specializing in
a smaller market has definite advantages. It's kindof like being a big fish in
a little pond than a small fish in a big pond. IBM has millions of them out
there, but there are thousands of developers too!
I was hoping to see the Imagen and the CBM monochrome monitor, but other than
that I was very impressed, and it surpassed my expectations.
How is the AmigaExpo financed? Does CBM do it? How is it organized, and how
many are there a year?
Mark
I don't know all the details, but AmiExpo was conceived and brought to reality
by a New York based user group — Amuse. They receive no CBM funding. AmiExpo
LA was their second show — and very successful. A Chicago show is scheduled
for June, then NY in the fall, back to LA next Jan, etc. It has quickly become
THE Amiga event.
Thanks for the info. Are there any "Amigafests" put together by local user
groups?
Mark
Mark,
A.M.I.G.A. (Amiga of Minnesota Interest Groups Alliance) will be holding the
A.M.I.G.A. Faire at the Bandana Square shopping center in St. Paul, MN on March
13 and 14. I'm not directly involved in the planning of this thing, but I
understand it should be a pretty good show. If you want additional details, I
can get you in touch with the organizers.
It's always nice to see another developer come out for the Amiga. Good luck!
Darron
Thanks Darron! Sure, I would like more details, how many are expected to attend
etc. Fairs can be a great place to get feedback from end users, and to see how
you stand in the marketplace.
Mark
Mark,
I'll get in touch with the organizers and get a little more detail
concerning who will be there, how many advance tickets sold, etc. We've got a
fairly good-sized Amiga community here, so I'm "cautiously optimistic" that
we'll have a good turnout. I'll get some more info for you in a day or so.
Darron
Thanks, would appreciate it.
Mark
Mark:
Sorry that I missed you at the Expo also. Maybe next one all of us CIS
types could have a distinctive hat or yea…. badge (Larry are you listening?).
Did you catch the fact that WP Corp. recovered their development costs
within 2 weeks of the release of WP for the Ami? That is incredible! I am
sure that many of the other groups that have been 'snobbing' the Ami will have
to take another look. 73, bill
SAme thing happened on the ST, all that pent up demand! And then it has serious
bugs. Sigh.
Sorry I missed you as well! But if you had a cowboy hat with a flashing beacon
on it I may have missed you in that crowd!
Maybe we should make a hat with a flashing light on it for the next one, eh?
Mark
Mark:
Doubt that would help. It was just be another flashing light amongst
all of the video stuff. Probably would not catch anyone's eye 🙂
How 'bout a rotating searchlight?<grin>
Mark