#Money Making Oppty???
22 messages in this thread
Hi Casey,
I moved this over to the Take 5 / Want Ad area because it seemed like
the more appropriate place to put it.
What's cooking up there at Viewpoint? Give us the skinny.
And when you get a chance, fill me in on the new job title.
Thanks,
Kevin
Just to let you know, the weather thing is great! We have some more
snow that is dumping in them mountains and more to come over the
pending weekend. The SLOPES ARE OPEN!!!! 😮
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I was out yesterday with
the common cold that has no cure (other than stay home, feel rotten,
and act sick).
One of the fast growing areas at Viewpoint is the brokering program.
This is where people can let Viewpoint evaluate their meshes and have
their models become Datasets to be sold in the Viewpoint Catalog. The
nice thing is that when you broker a model through Viewpoint, there
is a 50/50 split each time it sells. In addition, when the new
Dataset goes in the Viewpoint Catalog, the person who modeled gets
their name next to their Dataset. So dust off those diskettes man,
and drop me a line if you have more questions regarding this you
forumites.
As for a new title, I am currently working in a sales position for
the games/multimedia arena. I know that there a number of people out
there working in 3DS doing CD ROM titles. We at Viewpoint have
developed a special title agreement allowing you access to the entire
Viewpoint catalog for the title(s) you may be working on. Give me a
call.
There a number of things happening here. What do you think?!!
Casey Johnson
Viewpoint DataLabs
Has Viewpoint ever publicized the success rate of brokered models, from the
perspective of the modeler? I heard a tale of woe from one guy who's brokered
models with you… he complained that he thought his models were nifty, and
that you guys thought they'd sell, and that they appeared in the catalog, but
there's never been an actual sale of his model, so his models have been tied up
in an exclusive arrangement with Viewpoint for all this time, and he can't
license them to anyone else…
Personally, I believe there's an infinite demand for 3D models, except
customers always find that they can't even buy a pre-made model for the object
they *really* want, because this would require model-making companies to
digitize everything in the real and imaginary world, at twelve resolutions plus
motions. 🙂
Hey John,
Glad to see you back.
And your interest in looking out for the little guy is most comforting.
I have no idea how Casey will respond to your question, and I'm certainly
interested in his answer. But I find it most curious that
you're ringing in on this one.
Have anything to do with the fact that your company also sells models, John?
It never occurred to me to ask, but does Syndesis offer a brokering program?
Do you offer 3D Studio users an opportunity to make additional income by
buying their models?
Or do you just pull them off of bulletin boards and the Internet?
The only compensation I've seen you offer to those whose models have ended up
on your CD-ROM has been a free CD if they could prove the work was theirs.
Talk to me John.
Regarding your query: < … publicized the success rate… >
I'd like to remind you of something you said in a previous message:
< I don't answer questions about sales figures. >
I sure hope we can play.
You quit last time just when the reviews were just starting to come in.
From the Florida Gator Review:
< Been watching this thread while ROTFL for some time now. >
< You guys are great. I couldn't keep silent any longer. >
We were a hit!
A great team!
The Dan Akroyd / Jane Curtain pro/con of Compuserve.
Let's do it again!
Keep smilin', John.
Kevin Gibson -=Remembering something about glass houses and bricks…=-
P.S. I wanna be Dan.
For the first 3D-ROM, we exploited the talents of dozens of 3D modelers in the
Amiga market who had clearly marked their models as public domain. We still
extended our "get a free disc" offer to these artists, and gave away hundreds
of discs.
For the second 3D-ROM, we used only omdels that were explicitly given to us for
use on the next edition of the 3D-ROM. Again, we gave away dozens of discs to
contributors, and dozens more as promotional items. And we'll most probably
throw in a CDROM with each purchase of InterChange for Windows, and perhaps
even with the next upgrade of InterChange for the Amiga.
See the pattern? The CDROM collections of models are a very cost-effective,
nay, profitable way to promote InterChange. For years and years, we never had
an effective way to demonstrate what InterChange can do. We couldn't give away
a working demo; that would be giving away the farm. 3D models have become a
very necessary item for working in 3D. I think the demand for models is
inexhaustable – there is no end to the requests for obscure objects that
haven't yet been digitized. There's certainly room in this market for companies
with an assured supply of high-quality models, and there's room at the other
end for companies to use give-away models to promote their product. In that
sense, I don't think we're doing anything different than Autodesk and the
World-Creating CDROM, or any other 3D package that wants a supply of demo
models bundled with their program.
Surprisingly, I don't think we get "many" contributors to the 3D-ROM. You'd
think that our little bribe of a free disc, a free collection of models would
lead to a lot of contributed models… but we've only had a few dozen
contributors to disc II, and a similar number so far for volume III.
I don't know if you've even seen the Syndesis 3D-ROMs, but we give away free
advertising space, both on disc and in print, to any model-making company who
wants to participate. It's not even a requirement that they contribute a
single mesh to the disc, I'd be happy to include only text files and images.
So if we're competing with any model-making company, we're a pretty stupid
competitor for advertising their product for them for free. 🙂
My only contact with Viewpoint's brokering program came from a guy who wanted a
free 3D-ROM, but he'd already brokered his models with Viewpoint in their
exclusive arrangement, hadn't seen any profits from it, and at least thought he
could get a free CD from us, but couldn't give us the right to redistribute his
demo model…
There you again Jane… I mean John,
No.. sorry, I can't get carried away with the humor today.
You may not realize it… but I really do enjoy sparring with you.
I respect your intellect…
Your response is well worded and addresses all but one of my questions.
My original query to Viewpoint was regarding money-making opportunities.
Moolahh! Cash on the barrelhead.
I was in search of the mean green that makes the Christmas scene.
I think that recognition is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't pay the rent.
Lord knows, John, I've got nothing against marketing, advertising, p.r…..
I've done that for a large part of my life. And if you recall from one of
our earlier conversations, I acknowledged your skill in this area.
The notes of cynicism in my message stem from my having to dwell on copyright
issues of late. I also recall a message thread here recently where
someone expressed suprise at seeing a spaceship he created on your CD-ROM.
I don't have InterChange. I'm sure it's a great product. I do have your
Syndesis 3D ROM. Got it direct from your hands at SIGGRAPH, Anaheim.
I guess it's a good way to promote your product…. It does demonstrate
the end result of using it. But you don't always give them away.
You sell them. And since they are a collection of models…. and not
InterChange, you are in the business of selling models.
The fact is, everyone who uses 3D Studio is in the model-making business.
You might say in one sense we're all competition for Viewpoint.
Viewpoint is just offering 3D Studio users at large a chance to make some
extra money for work they've already done.
And the contributors get their name right alongside a quality image of
their model in the Viewpoint catalog. I know, because after Casey popped
that note up here on the board, I pulled out the catalog and found
references to brokered models for Kleiser-Walczak and other companies.
I never really read through the text before, just looked at the pictures.
Regarding the number of contributors to your CD-ROMS…. I don't know.
Maybe the money thing is more important than the credit and free advertising.
Tell you what… If I come up with something I think you'll like….
and I think I just might do that…. I'll be glad to make a contribution.
Kevin
At Siggraph this year, as I stood below the giant glass revolving
pyramid of the relatively immense Viewpoint booth, talking with the
head of that company, he remarked that he wished he had some real
competition in the 3D dataset market. It would help legitimize it,
he said. At Siggraph, the leading computer graphics conference, his
closest competition (in his view) was in a little 10 x 10 booth.
As I said, there are lots of companies selling models as part of their PR,
marketing, upgrade or bundle. We don't make any models here at Syndesis, we
don't take them on consignment, we spend our dollars to promote and advertise
the efforts of the upstanding companies like Viewpoint who are doing a great
job of making professional- quality models. I'm happy to have found a good way
to do that. My customers are customers of commercial modeling companies, too.
It's good for Syndesis to promote the modeling companies, even if it means
making a low-cost disc of models. It's also good for Syndesis to make sure
that the modeling companies have as many freebie copies of InterChange that
they need… recommendations work wonders.
Not all models are created equal… but I think you have the mistaken
impression that all "models" must be the same sort of commodity. The models on
the 3D-ROMs vary widely in quality. But even using the word "quality"
introduces the notion of suitability of purpose, which expands the spectrum of
models even further. Some people are looking for minimal-vertice humanoids.
Others want perfectly accurate hands with morphable muscles and pre-programmed
restricted ranges of motion, and hair on the knuckles if they can get it. As
you said, if you get very very general, anyone with a 3D program "competes"
with Viewpoint. But that's a silly generalization. It ignores talent, it
ignores professionalism, it denies there might be any middle ground between
what someone's selling for thousands of dollars versus what some hobbyist is
giving away because it gives them pleasure…
John,
You've clouded the issue here with your erroneous perception of my thoughts.
Nothing I said ignores talent. Talent deserves to be rewarded.
You say:
< there are lots of companies selling models as part of their PR, >
< marketing, upgrade or bundle. >
No, what I believe you said was you " gave away hundreds of discs." and…
"we gave away dozens of discs to contributors, and dozens more as promotional
items." You didn't say much about selling them. But, you do.
For hundreds of dollars.
The question at hand is:
How do 3D Studio users make money selling their models?
Answer: They can't if they give them away.
I'm not saying they shouldn't give some of their work away. They can do
whatever they want. It's the product of their labor. I've given lot's
of my time and energy to promoting local bulletin boards, and commercial
concerns without any recompense. It is by choice. And it is with the
understanding that I am spending my time doing something that I am not
earning money for.
Let's reverse the scenario you've described regarding your friend's model.
If he had given it to you first to distribute it freely on your CD-ROMS
do you think it would have much value in a catalog offering it for sale?
Why would anyone buy it if they could get it for free?
Why would Viewpoint or anyone else spend money promoting it?
Your friend offered his model to Viewpoint in an attempt to make money.
I assume it is still in their catalog. And still available for sale.
Viewpoint spends a lot of money promoting his and other people's work.
You've already noted their presence in trade shows, and you're aware of the
costs of distributing catalogs and CDs. Your concern stems from the fact
that your friend was restricted for a temporary period of time
from giving it to you so it can be distributed for free.
John, you're a businessman. This should make sense.
< we spend our dollars to promote … >
You spend your dollars to promote Syndesis. Which is as it should be.
< it denies there might be any middle ground between what someone's selling >
< for thousands of dollars versus what some hobbyist is giving away because >
< it gives them pleasure… >
There's lots of middle ground there, John. As you are already aware, the
forum libraries and bulletin boards around the world are filled with the
contributions of those who give their work away freely in exchange for the
recognition, as good p.r./advertising, or just for the pleasure of it.
I've got no problem with that. My presence here is on that basis.
I've even offered to provide you with a sample of my handiwork. I'm working
on it now. And if individuals want to contribute their work to Syndesis'
and Autodesk's collections on CD, I have no problem with that either.
I would love to see my work in the company of the talented individuals whose
work has appeared there. I am still refining my skills…
You say:
< At Siggraph, the leading computer graphics conference, his >
< closest competition (in his view) was in a little 10 x 10 booth. >
No need to tell me about SIGGRAPH, John. Or about 10×10 booths.
I remember when Viewpoint was in a spartan booth at SIGGRAPH, Las Vegas
only three short years ago. As you point out, they've grown considerably.
They must be doing something right.
I think competition is healthy. It would seem that you would be an ideal
candidate for launching a rival firm or helping Nuomenon or someone else
to "legitimize" the industry. Sounds like an idea worth exploring.
< Others want perfectly accurate hands with morphable muscles and >
< pre-programmed restricted ranges of motion, and hair on the knuckles if >
< they can get it. >
I'll take two! Especially if they're free! <G>
You jumped on a thread I started in an attempt to identify another source
of revenue for 3D Studio users and the forumites gathered here.
You saw it as another chance to whine. That's okay.
I guess that's a format you and I can play to our advantage.
We can do the pro/con thing. I enjoy it.
I think it's healthy. It keeps the mind sharp.
As long as everyone recognizes that it's just part of the continuing quests;
"the search for knowledge and the creation of beauty." (Arthur C. Clarke)
I really do like you, John. No smiley faces needed.
Remember, public relations and advertising doesn't pay the rent unless
that's how you make your living.
My question remains: How does the 3D Studio user make some additional cash?
The name of the thread is "Money Making Opportunity?"
Kevin
This actually was a response to John Foust that is in this thread some
messages up regarding brokering. I want to post is here as well in
that everyone has a better chance at reading it. Again, this has to
deal with the issue of making money in a win-win situation:
<<John,
Let me point out how the brokering program works out and then the
success rate….
You can submit a model to us under a guideline that we provide to you.
Upon acceptance that we want it to become a Dataset, we then run the
mesh through SofA (Seal of Approval). This allows the mesh to become
a Dataset and it can now be translated to multiple package formats on
multiple platforms. The chances of the mesh selling has increase
many times fold and not just locked up in one or two formats. From
there, it will go into the Viewpoint catalog to be sold on it's own
merits as is every other Dataset in the catalog.
You stated that your friends Dataset didn't sell. Unfortuante for
him. It is our customers that decide what they want. Not us. As
for the success rate, we have a few licensors who have accumulated
royalties in the thousand of dollars and other in the hundreds of
dollars. So I would say that we have a number of people out there
who are brokering their data with us that are more than happy. Also,
if you are brokering your data with us and it doesn't seem to be
selling, there is nothing in the contract that says you can't call us
and make inquiries about it. In addition to not selling and suppose
you have people that would like to purchase your mesh that is now at
Viewpoint, why not refer them to Viewpoint. You would still get your
cut as a broker.
What I am getting at is that brokering your meshes with Viewpoint is a
win-win situation. Viewpoint gets a chance to make additional money
and increase the inventory. Whereas modelers get to dust off models
that were sitting on the shelf, make some extra cash (their mesh
being available in multiple packages/platforms), and getting name
recognition with a company that is the industry leader in 3D models.
🙂
Casey Johnson
Viewpoint DataLabs>>
Thanks. I believe that competition is healthy as well for any
industry. It is just that Viewpoint has found itself in a unique
position of being the industry leader of a market with no one else in
the same type of league. Sure, there are a few little companies
offering models on cd's but only in specific formats. That seems to
be a key issue.
-Casey Johnson
Viewpoint DataLabs
Casey,
You said:
< Sure, there are a few little companies offering models on cd's but only in >
< specific formats. That seems to be a key issue. >
Maybe they have to buy Syndesis' Interchange and convert 'em to other formats.
Kevin Gibson
Animation Nation <tm> -=Having a 3D kinda day.=-
To get back to the original subject of this thread, I think it's a
long shot to make money for holiday spending in the short term by
selling a few models. My point about the brokering path is that it's
not a short-term source of cash. It may be a long-term source of
cash, especially if you have models that are in demand. But fingering
and defining that demand is very difficult, as I also pointed out,
because of the shifting requirements of 3D modelers. You may have a
very fine model of a crawdaddy and a po' boy, but if it isn't the
right resolution for the commercial I'm rendering, those models are
useless.
I thought you'd be interested in the answer to the question I posed to
Casey. If Viewpoint has 10,000 models in the catalog, and 1,000 are
brokered, that ratio alone might define what your royalty might be
like. If you're looking for short-term cash, maybe you should ask
Viewpoint to outright *buy* your models.
As for "jumping on a thread," this is a public conversation taking
place in the junk-heap section in the forum. At least I was chatting
about 3D-related topics, as opposed to what's discussed at this
weekend's barbeque. Take that, Southern Man! 🙂
John, old pal,
You said:
< I think it's a long shot to make money for holiday spending in the short
< term by selling a few models. >
Agreed.
< My point about the brokering path is that it's not a short-term >
< source of cash. >
Now you're just being redundant, John. But I still agree.
This is a scary trend!
Well… You've made your point much more clearer here, John.
Too bad it took you so long to find the right words.
< It may be a long-term source of cash, especially if you have models that >
< are in demand. >
Do you think there's much of a demand for models of crawfish, shrimp, oysters?
< You may have a very fine model of a crawdaddy and a po' boy, >
< but if it isn't the right resolution for the commercial I'm rendering, >
< those models are useless. >
Maybe we could put 'em on your CD?
I'm working on this neat catfish…..
Maybe I should give my friend Angela a holler and see if she wants to put that
Gator model of hers out on the market and make a couple of bucks….
< I thought you'd be interested in the answer to the question I posed… >
I'm always interested in what you have to say, John.
< If you're looking for short-term cash, maybe you should ask Viewpoint to >
< outright *buy* your models. >
We're still trying to finger the demand, John.
< At least I was chatting about 3D-related topics, as opposed to what's >
< discussed at this weekend's barbeque. Take that, Southern Man! 🙂 >
This has been a ball, John. I take it we're gonna give this format a whirl?
I sure do hope so. I'm gonna be smilin' all day cause of that last crack.
I've got tears rolling from the laughter. Thanks.
John, Whaddya think of my idea of Syndesis getting into the act and giving
Viewpoint a run for the money?
Back at ya, Yankee!
Kevin Gibson
Animation Nation <tm> -=It's nice to have friends.=-
P.S. See my last response to Casey for a smile.
Another issue: I think you can make money by giving away *some* of your models.
If you want to make money as a modeler for hire, I'd encourage you to make a
few demo models and images and upload them (with suitable text file with your
name, intentions, phone, etc.) to everywhere and every place you can
redistribute them. Your worth as a modeler probably has more to do with what
you could create in the future, as opposed to what you've created already.
Your past creations demonstrate what you have done…
As you've noted in other messages, you're probably only going to be able to
sell your models *once*, unless you go into the model-making and -selling
business yourself. And unless you've got hundreds of models ready to go, it's
hard to imagine how that could keep food on the table on a regular basis.
Another way to look at all this: a single model isn't really worth much, unless
you've found a confirmed buyer. 🙂
Gee, John. Guess we've run this into the ground… and all in 48 hours!!!!!
I can't disagree with anything you said in your last message.
It sounds like very good advice that 3D Studio users can benefit from.
I would add that it is the "past creations" or "what you've created already"
that Casey was referring to when he said "dust off the shelves."
I don't recall anybody saying anything about keeping food on the table, but
come to think of it, you did mention BBQ and I'm getting hungry.
Now what do we do? Wanna go find a thread to jump on?
Or do ya want to start a thread of our own?
Pick a topic or pick a thread. Send me a note when you get there.
I'll be along shortly.
Gee this is swell.
Kevin Gibson
Animation Nation <tm> -=Hey Laaadeeeeeeeee =-
John,
Let me point out how the brokering program works out and then the success
rate….
You can submit a model to us under a guideline that we provide to you. Upon
acceptance that we want it to become a Dataset, we then run the mesh through
SofA (Seal of Approval). This allows the mesh to become a Dataset and it can
now be translated to multiple package formats on multiple platforms. The
chances of the mesh selling has increase many times fold and not just locked up
in one or two formats. From there, it will go into the Viewpoint catalog to be
sold on it's own merits as is every other Dataset in the catalog.
You stated that your friends Dataset didn't sell. Unfortuante for him. It is
our customers that decide what they want. Not us. As for the success rate, we
have a few licensors who have accumulated royalties in the thousand of dollars
and other in the hundreds of dollars. So I would say that we have a number of
people out there who are brokering their data with us that are more than happy.
Also, if you are brokering your data with us and it doesn't seem to be selling,
there is nothing in the contract that says you can't call us and make inquiries
about it. In addition to not selling and suppose you have people that would
like to purchase your mesh that is now at Viewpoint, why not refer them to
Viewpoint. You would still get your cut as a broker.
What I am getting at is that brokering your meshes with Viewpoint is a win-win
situation. Viewpoint gets a chance to make additional money and increase the
inventory. Whereas modelers get to dust off models that were sitting on the
shelf, make some extra cash (their mesh being available in multiple
packages/platforms), and getting name recognition with a company that is the
industry leader in 3D models. 🙂
Casey Johnson
Viewpoint DataLabs
Thanks for the background. I too think that brokering can be a
win-win situation. Certainly the exposure if nothing else is good
for the modeler! I'm sure many of the modelers keep the Viewpoint
catalog with their model close at hand when clients come in the door,
or when fellow modelers come through the office for a tour.
As I pointed out in some of my other messages, I think there's still
an incredible demand for models of all types. For example, I think
you could show two dozen different "T. Rex" dino models in the
catalog, and they'd all sell.
Do you know any rough numbers for how many models are in your catalog
now, and how many of those are brokered? Are brokered models more or
less popular sellers than the models you've made in-house?
If you can wait until monday, I will see about getting you some hard figures.
Note that we are careful about what is brokered and what isn't. Anycase, I
will see what we can do on getting you those figures.
Casey
Viewpoint DataLabs
I'm just curious… if it's proprietary, I'd understand. I think you should
tell more people about your brokering program! I don't think it's that
well-known.
I havn't had the time to get those numbers like you asked. But the real point
is that people know that they have an opportunity to make some money that they
wouldn't otherwise be making. Again, this is nothing more than a win-win deal.
Casey Johnson
Viewpoint DataLabs
Casey,
I missed the front part of this string. We have a number of models that I
would love to get some extra cash for. Who and how do I contact at viewpoint
to sell these models.
Andrew McClary
Graphic Alchemy Productions, Inc.
Sorry that you missed out. To get more info on the brokering program, all I
need for you to do is call 800-328-2738, ask for extension 3030. This will
connect you to Kristin Larsen who is working on the brokering program. So,
give her a call and she will give you the necessary information.
-Casey Johnson
Viewpoint DataLabs