#3D Modeling Software
13 messages in this thread
Bernie,
I like some of your ideas…I've had them as well. There are some things that
you mention that can already be done.
>>
6-Speaking of textures, how about a little box, something like the color
swatch box, in each and every texture requester that would show you what the
textures will look like?
<<
Already slated for inclusion when the interface is bumped up to 256 colors.
>>
8-Automatic screen updates when editing paths. Often I want to move, size
or shape paths in relation to other objects–only problem is, all the other
objects have disappeared!
<<
That can get very ugly and slow in complex scenes. Try this…select the path
or object you want to edit. Then Multi-Select the objects you want to be
redrawn. Then…edit the object. Now when you are in points mode…any
refresh will contain the other multi-selected objects.
>> 9-Why can't I group/ungroup objects in the stage editor? This drives me
crazy!
>>
Each object is loaded as a seperate object in the Stage. If you decided to
ungroup an object in the stage, a new actor position would have to be added to
the Action Editor screen for that now new object. Ok…thats no problem. BUT,
you would also have to then save each of these new seperated objects to your HD
so that when you opened up this project at some later time, each now seperated
object can be loaded. This procedure of saving objects seperately is done in
the Detail editor…where all of the object editing features exist.
>>
10-Imagine should inform users, in both the project editor and when
quickrendering, if they do not have sufficient memory to render a scene! This
feature is especially important for the new user, who, not being used to
Imagines quirks, might think there is something wrong with the program when
only half the scene renders.
<<
It does this if you really go far beyond your memory capacity. What needs to
be done is to inform the user that some of the scene will not render due to
memory limits.
>> 13-Also, Imagine won't let me change the name of a quickrender to anything
else–why? If I change it from the default (QRENDER, I believe) I get an error
message.
<<
You must specify the path where you want the QRENDER image to be saved in your
PREFERENCES editor. Once a path is given…Imagine will allow you to rename
your qrenders.
>>
15-Here's a weird suggestion: a light intensity function you could turn on
and off, which, when on would display a series of concentric circles around
lights in the stage to show light intensity at that distance from the light.
The distance between the "rings" would increase or decrease as you raise or
lower the brightness of lights, or as you click on/off on diminish intensity.
The rings could represent the intensity range for a light, from 0-100% in, say,
20% intervals. (5 rings) Or you could just have one or two rings for each
light, showing the optimum range for objects to be in (or maybe you can think
up a better way). This would help in placing lights, which can be a hit or
miss affair.
<<
IT'S IN THERE…Click on LIGHT LINES in the STAGE. This will give you a visual
cue as to where the lights are shining. The "rings" for intensity are not
needed for anything other than the DIMINISH intensity lights. All other lights
light up the scene evenly. As for "optimum" distances to place lights…there
is no such thing. People have different tastes as to what "look" they want &
like.
>> 16-The ability to do a stage pencil test in a solid or color shaded veiw.
You can do this in the project editor, but this means a FLC file I don't want
on my HD. Besides, in the stage you can view a pencil test at different
speeds, stop and view individual frames, and instantly make changes to the
project.
<<
IT'S IN THERE. In the stage you can make an anim in SOLID or WIREFRAME mode.
If you want solid you must be in SOLID mode. Then select the make anim
selection from the menu (Last menu selection). When played you can view it in
the stage, step through it, stop it, etc. There is also an Onion Skin feature
in the stage.
>> 17-In the Project editor: WHILE RENDERING, how about, IN ADDITION to
showing the percentage of the current frame completed, showing the total time
it took to render the previous frame?
<<
You can find out how long any image took to render by clicking on the frame,
and selecting INFO.
>>
18-Other file formats for backdrop pictures? Or even brushmaps? BMP, TGA
and GIF would be nice.
<<
Imagine reads TIF uncompressed, TGA uncompressed, IFF (compressed and
uncompressed), LBM (compressed and Uncompressed) for Backdrops and for
brushmaps.
>>
19-Last, but probably most importantly, ONLINE HELP! The last menu item
should be a help menu, with a table of contents listing every single Imagine
function and a brief description on how to use it. Not, of course, as a
substitute to a thorough manual!
<<
Online Help, many more requestors, etc. I'd want to pass on that…maybe in a
Windows version only because it's expected to be in there. Why not just read
the manual, rather than cluttering the HD with help files, and bloating the
software more? If one did they'd know that TGA files can be read, that LIGHT
lines are there, that you can make pencil tests in the stage, that you need to
select an object to change it's attributes, etc. <g> Sorry…that was kinda
snippy.
Hope I answered some of your questions.
-GreG
Greg–
I think you missed the point of my note. Mike H. said that in the past many
people complained about Imagine without citing anything specific that needed
changing, and that Impulse was open to any suggestions as to ways to improve
the program. Dutifully, I sat down and tried to think of things that might
make Imagine better, or more user-friendly. I ended up having to delete the
beginning and end of my original note because it was (apparently) too big to
upload as a forum message. Here is the original beginning to the note (the
parts in quotations):
"I am constantly hearing or reading that Imagine's interface is not
user-friendly, or that it is difficult to use. While there is some truth to
this accusation, I think it would be more accurate to say that Imagine is
difficult to LEARN (especially for the PC user, for whom Imagine seems
counter-intuitive). Once you get the basics down, Imagine becomes a joy to
work with. In fact, Imagine is, in some ways, a victim of its own success–it
is an extremely powerful and moderately complex program, and there is a
significant learning curve involved to be able to move from making shiny
spheres floating over a plaid background to making anything your mind can
imagine…"
"I think, in the short run, new Imagine users become very easily frustrated
with the program and take it out on the Impulse gang and the program itself.
Eventually, these new users either become seasoned Imagineers and stop griping
(well, mostly) or they give up and abandon Imagine as not worth the trouble.
The problem is, seasoned users generally go on to forget just how difficult it
was to LEARN TO USE Imagine, and new users don't know enough about the way
Imagine works to offer any useful suggestions for improving the program. I've
been using Imagine for about 6 months and thus fall somewhere between brand new
user and veteran Imagineer (though probably a lot closer to the former than the
later), so I thought that perhaps I can offer some useful suggestions. (or
perhaps not! <G>)"
The rest of the note is exactly as posted, except for the very end, which I
also excised to make it fit:
"Hope this is of some help and didn't sound too demanding or preachy (or
stupid). I would like to see Imagine a tad easier to use for my own selfish
reasons <G>, but I would also like to see it easier for the new user to learn,
so that Imagine can become the modeling/rendering/animation program of choice
on the PC. Really, I think Imagine is just fantastic! Keep up the good work!"
You see, I was trying, in my own fumbling way, to make some suggestions for
improving the interface. I was trying to be helpful. I WAS NOT moaning, "How
do you do this and that?" Indeed, I made most of the suggestions knowing full
well that there was A WAY to do what I mentioned…but an awkward or cumbersome
way, and I was suggesting what I thought was a BETTER WAY. Maybe I was wrong
in numerous instances…but so what? I certainly wasn't demanding that Impulse
make these changes immediately…or else! <G> No, I was simply
free-associating, and hoping that some of what came to mind might actually be
of some use. Naturally, some of it wouldn't be. In fact, I'm sure in
retrospect that some of my suggestions are down-right useless…but some of
them aren't, and THEY WERE ALL MADE WITH THE BEST INTENTIONS.
Which, I believe, brings us to your response to my note…
>>
"I like some of your ideas…I've had them as well. There are some things that
you mention that can already be done."
<<
Yes, Greg. I know.
>>
"That can get very ugly and slow in complex scenes. Try this…select the path
or object you want to edit. Then Multi-Select the objects you want to be
redrawn. Then…edit the object. Now when you are in points mode…any
refresh will contain the other multi-selected objects."
<<
What I was getting at was, why should I have to multi-select objects I want
redrawn? You don't have to do that when working in other modes. It's an
additional step with no added benefit (or, at least, no added benefit that I
can see).
>>
"Each object is loaded as a separate object in the Stage. If you decided to
ungroup an object in the stage, a new actor position would have to be added to
the Action Editor screen for that now new object. Ok…thats no problem. BUT,
you would also have to then save each of these new separated objects to your HD
so that when you opened up this project at some later time, each now separated
object can be loaded. This procedure of saving objects separately is done in
the Detail editor…where all of the object editing features exist."
<<
Great, but why can't we do it in the stage as well? I suppose that, until
very recently, you would have told me that I can't change object attributes in
the Stage editor, either–that this is only done in the Detail editor. Fine,
except that Impulse just added this capability in 3.1. Well, if they can add
attributes to the stage, why can't they add grouping/ungrouping?
>>
"It does this if you really go far beyond your memory capacity. What needs to
be done is to inform the user that some of the scene will not render due to
memory limits."
<<
Excuse me, Greg, but isn't that essentially what I said? I said something
like, "Imagine should inform users if there is insufficient memory to render a
scene," or words to that affect. Perhaps I am not being semantically precise
enough for you, but, to me, Imagine rendering only part of my picture qualifies
as "insufficient memory to render a scene."
<<
"You must specify the path where you want the QRENDER image to be saved in your
PREFERENCES editor. Once a path is given…Imagine will allow you to rename
your qrenders."
>>
A useful tidbit of knowledge, which I thank you for…but why doesn't
Imagine save to a default directory if you don't specify one? Or, at the very
least, inform you of what you did wrong, and let you try it again? Every
single program I own does one or the other…except Imagine.
>>
"IT'S IN THERE…Click on LIGHT LINES in the STAGE. This will give you a
visual cue as to where the lights are shining. The "rings" for intensity are
not needed for anything other than the DIMINISH intensity lights. All other
lights light up the scene evenly. As for "optimum" distances to place
lights…there is no such thing. People have different tastes as to what
"look" they want & like."
<<
I was well aware of the light lines feature. I was not, however, aware that
the intensity of light does not change except for DIMINISH…probably because
in all the renders I've done I always click on diminish, for more realistic
lighting. My mistake, but an honest one.
>>
"IT'S IN THERE. In the stage you can make an anim in SOLID or WIREFRAME mode.
If you want solid you must be in SOLID mode. Then select the make anim
selection from the menu (Last menu selection). When played you can view it in
the stage, step through it, stop it, etc. There is also an Onion Skin feature
in the stage."
<<
Yes, Greg. I know how to make pencil test anim in the stage–I've only done
it about a thousand times–but, as I said in my note, it would be nice to make
a COLOR or SHADED test anim IN THE STAGE. You see, this would be a NEW
FEATURE.
>>
"You can find out how long any image took to render by clicking on the frame,
and selecting INFO."
<<
Sigh. Yes. I know that, too. But when you are rendering a thousand-frame
animation, it would be nice to periodically check on how long it is taking to
render individual frames without interrupting the rendering process–this way,
you can at least guesstimate when you will be done.
>>
"Imagine reads TIF uncompressed, TGA uncompressed, IFF (compressed and
uncompressed), LBM (compressed and Uncompressed) for Backdrops and for
brushmaps."<<
But not BMP or GIF, as I suggested.
>>
"Online Help, many more requesters, etc. I'd want to pass on that…maybe in a
Windows version only because it's expected to be in there. Why not just read
the manual, rather than cluttering the HD with help files, and bloating the
software more? If one did they'd know that TGA files can be read, that LIGHT
lines are there, that you can make pencil tests in the stage, that you need to
select an object to change it's attributes, etc. <g> Sorry…that was kinda
snippy.
<<
Yes, it was "kind of snippy." In fact, it was rather rude. Especially
since I already knew how to do all of that–except, admittedly, I was under the
impression that Imagine can only read TIF files for backdrops–my mistake: I
looked up BACKDROP in the index of the 3.0 manual, and it directed me to page
266 where it only mentions TIF files. So, you see, I got this mistaken idea
from READING THE MANUAL, not from NOT READING IT.
I was not suggesting online help, or a number of the other features I
mentioned, because I deeply desire them, but because I think they would greatly
help NEW USERS. That was the whole thrust of this thread: Someone is
considering buying Imagine, but is put off by the interface. Mike welcomes
suggestions to improve it. I offer some. And you, Greg, act instead like I am
begging for help! I think that you have forgotten what it is like to be new to
(and confused by) Imagine. It is a great program, but it can be very
frustrating at times. I was simply offering some ideas (good and bad) for
making it LESS FRUSTRATING. Isn't this a worthy goal for us to have? It seems
to me that most of your suggestions center around the idea that we should all
change to fit the program, rather than–perish the thought!–the program
changing to suit us better.
Bernie
Bernie,
Having now seen your original opening to your message, it becomes much clearer
as to what you wanted to accomplish in your message. It also gave me some feel
for how long you've been using Imagine, which before I did not know.
Like I said….most of your observations I agree with. In some of your points,
it seemed that you were unaware of some features. I felt I could help by
pointing out the features that do what you wanted to do. I do remember what it
was like to climb the learning curve of Imagine…heck, I'm still learning
after 7+ years! <g> Thats why I offered suggestions where it appeared to me
that you had questions about…light lines, pencil tests (you did say SOLID or
COLOR SHADED), the image formats, etc.
Yes…the stage will offer control over the attributes. I would also imagine
that any changes made would require re-saving the object for future
referencing. Things are constantly changing with Imagine. Impulse is heading
in some wild directions with it, and the stage and detail editors will become
even more functional.
Added benefit to multi-selecting objects for editing redraws….In very complex
scenes…the redraw time can be long. Also, the screen can get cluttered with
many objects, and jumbled meshes. By multi-selecting, you can choose which
objects or groups get redrawn while editing. This cuts down on having to
redraw ALL the objects, and cuts down on the screen clutter. I mentioned it
only because you did not in your original post, and thought I could be of help
in pointing you to the feature, as well as a reason for it.
I pointed out the other image formats that Imagine offered…including TGA
which you asked for. Again, from your post it was not made clear if you knew
this or not.
Yes, I did reply to you as if you were requesting help. Is that a bad thing?
Many of your points, read as if you were unaware of certain features. Just
thought I'd point you to them, or show you how to accomplish the desired
result. Didn't mean to treat you as a new user…but I always assume that
someone is relatively new…that way I don't skip any steps or features when
trying to answer questions.
The last paragraph was a tad snippy <g>…and I even pointed it out. It was in
your response to more context sensitive help. After reading your post, it
appeared that you asked for several features that can be accomplished now, and
that are in the manual. I changed the tone of that last paragraph only to
emphasize that reading the manual is the best route.
I obviuosly did not read your message as you intended and as a result my reply
offended you. For that I appologize. But I won't appologize for trying to
help! <g>
Forgive my misinterpretaion-
-GreG
GreG–
Apology accepted. Perhaps, in my note, I was not as clear as I might have
been. And I did, admittedly, make a couple of errors, which you were right to
correct.
I was simply putting my two cents in, as everyone has the right to do. Many
Imagine users suggest changes or ask for new features, but not all of their
suggestions are practical or even desirable. That's okay. It's part of the
learning process, for users and the Impulse gang both.
After using Imagine for a fairly long time, it is easy to grow accustomed to
the way things are done–you adapt to the program, and it becomes second nature
to you. Eventually, you have trouble conceiving of anything different. But
that doesn't mean that there isn't a better way to do things. Remember that
Imagine is not so much a finished product as it is a work in progress (the
constant update program is proof of that!). I myself having grown very fond of
Imagine…so much so, that I have trouble imagining my life without it! But
that doesn't mean I think it is perfect…there is always room for improvement.
Bernie
Bernie,
No program is ever perfect. Imagine does need reworking in several areas…I'd
be the first to admit that. Changes are coming. Again, critiques and
suggestions for improvement are helpfull to all. Knowing now that you were
aware of the current implementation of the points I addressed, your message is
put into perspective for me.
-GreG
GreG,
Is there a program in one of the libs that would be a good demo of what Imagine
produces? I would like to download and view something that would let me have a
better understanding of what all is being discussed here.
John Parker
>>
Is there a program in one of the libs that would be a good demo of what Imagine
produces? I would like to download and view something that would let me have a
better understanding of what all is being discussed here.
<<
John,
No programs, but many still images and short anims. For a fantastic image look
no further than Steve Blackmon's DYNAMO.JPG. It's chock full of ligthing,
plasma, electricity, and texturing effects…and a great image to boot!
For an anim, take a look at Steve Blackmon's SNAKED.ZIP. It's a wonderfully
done short anim of two water snakes swimming and undulating underwater while a
medusa jelly-fish goes on it's merry way to the surface. Has plenty of smooth
movement, caustics, and again very nice to look at.
Both files are Steve's, I'm fond of his work, but there are many others that
are just as finely crafted and executed..
-GreG
GreG,
I haven't heard anyone talking about Steve's exploding space station (I forgot
the name). Have you seen it? Incredible. Also I want to add David's Banan1 (and
2 which I haven't seen yet) to the animations.
Sam
– Sam J. Bowling, Written 30-Sep-1994 @ 01:53:56
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
Sam,
Yep, Steve Blackmon's DISAST.JPG is a great Image, especially knowing that the
explosion is traced, and not post-processed in a paint program. David
Hofmann's anims Banan1 & Banan2 are awesome, and will be in the next issue of
Compuserve CD. The movement and personality in his Banana Jones character is
exquisite. Dynamite stuff.
-GreG
>> Online Help, many more requesters, etc. I'd want to pass on that…maybe
in a Windows version only because it's expected to be in there. Why not just
read the manual, rather than cluttering the HD with help files, <<
That's definitely one of my pet peeves. In a lot of windows shareware
programs you get these half*ss help files and no real documentation. I think
online help sucks compared to a decent (or halfway decent) manual. I have never
yet seen a decent online help in a windows manual.
Oh, one thing I would like is to be able to do full screen preview animations.
BTW, where in the docs does it talk about the onion skin previews?
There's more I wanted to add in, but I thought it up and forgot it during work
today. Maybe I'll remember later.<G>
Sam
– Sam J. Bowling, Written 30-Sep-1994 @ 01:33:13
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
>> BTW, where in the docs does it talk about the onion skin previews?
Sam,
You can't do Onion skin previews. Onion skin works in the tri-views. Click on
Onion skin. Go to Next frame and you will see that the objects in the frame you
were just in, are now "ghosted", or show through. This lets you see the
previous frame positioning of the objects in your scene, as compared to the
current frame, much like traditional cell animation is done on paper.
-GreG
>> This lets you see the previous frame positioning of the objects in your
scene, as compared to the current frame, <<
Oh, thanks, GreG. That should be helpful in the future.
Sam
– Sam J. Bowling, Written 30-Sep-1994 @ 13:28:15
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
>> Oh, one thing I would like is to be able to do full screen preview
>> animations.
That would use four times the amount of RAM, but if you have enough why not. I
wish there was full screen anim preview, too. On the Amiga version you can
play the small anim preview fill screen, but it only stretches the small
image.
-David