#Open Letter to CEI
27 messages in this thread
I don't know about you, but I would *not* run ported WINDOZE software on my
Amiga. Nearly every piece of software written for Windoze is a good example of
bad, sloppy programming (especially Windoze itself). What needs to be done is
to hire some really good programmers that know the Amiga to write the software,
then show it to the rest of the world, comparing it to the sluggish performance
of it's Windoze counterparts (Not an easy thing to do, but the right thing to
do).
Rick Green Via AutoPilot
Rick,
This is a tough one to reply accurately to…
On the one hand, you are right about Windows programs being sloppy and
inefficient. Micros**t is counting on users buying the necessary hardware
to compensate for the most inefficient GUI money can buy.
On the other hand, Windows software is sort of like Fords, if you haven't
driven one lately, you really don't know what you are talking about.
The latest versions of Word and Excel are excellent programs. Big, yes,
but very feature rich. Access is a decent database which is suitable for a
client-server front end when its native power is exceeded. Lotus'
Freelance is a very good structured graphics program.
The Amiga is just about dead because of our determination to cooperate
with no one in the industry. To suggest that we continue is to propose
economic suicide.
Tab Trepagnier
Cruising on AutoPilot from Beaumont, Texas
Tab,
Hee Hee..
>The Amiga is just about dead because of our determination to cooperate >with
no one in the industry. To suggest that we continue is to propose >economic
suicide.
.. whatsamatau! Something about searching the world over for a 23 pin
connector got you down? ;^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
How right you are!!!
I already know about Windows applications (It's part of my job to answer calls
from customers wondering why their programs aren't working). I agree, for
Windoze programs, Excel and Word are good programs. It is just rediculus to
have a WORD PROCESSOR take up 30+ Megs of HD space and require 8+ Megs of RAM
to work decently. Then, there's the price tag (Several $100's). Then, there's
the bugs (yes, they do have them) and then there's a new release (at a large
extra cost, of course) that leaves the bugs and adds more worthless features
(which adds more system requirements) just to stay a step above the
competetors' features. The competetors are, of course, in the same ratrace.
It's an endless cycle. I _have_ driven a Ford, but I own (and prefer) a Chevy
:^).
I agree that the lack of good Amiga business software is killing the machine,
but I don't want to see it come to Microsoft (and others) dominating the Amiga
software industry. It would kill the very reason I use my Amiga: To stay away
from the overpriced, overkill software on Windoze.
What would be a good idea is to get some REAL Amiga programmers to get hired on
at these big name software companies (Lotus, etc.) to port the stuff to work
correctly on Amiga. If they do that, it might not be so bad. Can you imagine a
DIRECT port of Windows software from non-Amiga programmers? No ARexx support
("Whats ARexx for", says programmer :^) No following the StyleGuide, etc..
Might as well get a PC in that case.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
Rick,
"It's part of my job to answer calls from customers wondering why their
programs aren't working."
Love it! It's part of my job, too. Being an Amiga user, I have fun with my
PC-using coworkers.
You say it is "ridiculous" for a word processor to take 30+ MB of disk
space. I agree completely. But only users of non-PC computers know that.
In other words, a few Mac users and even fewer Amiga users. Since
Commodore couldn't sell eternal life, much less an oddball computer, the
average person knows none of this.
A coworker in my department has a Mac and runs the Mac versions of our
corporate "toolkit." On the PC, it needs a 200 MB hard drive, minimum. The
Mac versions of the same software fit on an 80 MB with 30 MB to spare.
As for ports, remember that OS/2 has Rexx, pre-emptive multitasking, and
threads. Many Windows developers (like Lotus, for one) started developing
for OS/2 until it became apparent that IBM took marketing lessons from
Commodore.
Seriously, what would be required is EFFORTLESS file transfer in both
directions. What is also required is easy networking without having to
install Mac name space on Novell servers. Something like CrossDOS/Net. I
could network half a floor of PC's in the time it takes to get one Amiga
networked. And we need MUCH less expensive networking solutions. Oh, and a
laptop.
Tab Trepagnier
Cruising on AutoPilot from Beaumont, Texas
Ah, then you know how aggrivating it can be to get a call from a customer who
just moved up to a Windoze machine from an old XT, and she wants to know why it
takes so long for her to print from MS Word. "It never took this long on my
XT," they say. After unsuccessfully trying to explain it to them, I have
finally come up with one thing to say: "M'am/Sir, welcome to MicroSoft." And,
yes, I do say it. :-\
Most of my coworkers don't understand me. I'm the quiet type, never really
asking much from anyone. I know computers because it's my hobby, and I've been
around the best one since they were using '286's 🙂 They were amazed at how
fast I picked up on OS/2, thats why that made me the OS/2 guru. I know OS/2 has
Rexx, but it really isn't being implemented very well (a few recent
applications are trying it, however). OS/2 itself isn't being supported very
well; but from what I've seen when it was released, it may change.
You are right about networking, it is everywhere in the PC world now. Serious
R&D needs to go into Amiga networking. It may be what saves our machine fom
doom. I think the Amiga would be much better for networking than PC's; it's
operating system is much more logical for it.
Of course, a laptop would be a big plus :^)
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
>> Serious R&D needs to go into Amiga networking. It may be what saves
>> our machine fom doom.
Come to think of it, an incredibly improved version of NetDoom _could_
save our machine…. (<vbg> for twisting your thought so badly)
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
The only way to respond to windows is to provide windows on a PC compatible
board – ie the bridgeboard, or goldengate, etc…
–Gabe
Gabe –
Wouldn't it be curious if Workbench 4.0 could run Windows in a window just
like OS/2 and PowerPC's can?
Or…if WB had an mswindows.library that enabled translation of Windows
function calls on the fly?
Just some food for thought (which would, of course, require Intel
emulation).
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
<< The only way to respond to windows is to provide windows on a PC compatible
board – ie the bridgeboard, or goldengate, etc…>>
You are right, but you left out an important point…cost. Why would any
consumer buy an Amiga to run Windows if they have to buy an add-on board at a
cost that's probably higher than the cost of a 386 Windows machine?
As you know, I have an old XT bridgeboard in my A2000. When I bought it, it
ran me the same as a comparable IBM clone.
The idea is to provide that capability as part of the base cost and to have it
built-in, standard, and upgradeable.
-Leon (on WinCIM from Windows on his 486 because I can't find a keyboard for my
A2000 or an AmigaDos 2+ chip for it or any kind of hardware at a reasonable
price for it anywhere.)
You tell 'em, SuperTech! 🙂
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
Rick,
You said, "I don't know about you, but I would *not* run ported WINDOZE
software on my Amiga. Nearly every piece of software written for Windoze is a
good example of bad, sloppy programming (especially Windoze itself)."
Fine, simply switch to the Amiga mode for a comparison! ;-}
Regards,
John Chang
I don't quite know what you're talking about when you said "Fine, simply switch
to the Amiga mode for a comparison". Are you talking about switching to Amiga
mode using the supposed Amiga bridgeboard or was that a humorus attempt to tell
me that the Amiga's present supply of software doesn't fare well with it's
Intel counterparts (or the complete lack of certain software?). If it is the
later, I can justify that. However, if I want to run Windoze software, I will
get a Windoze machine (I already do have a 486 with OS/2 Warp installed). But,
I have an Amiga, and I want to run Amiga software 🙂
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
I agree that Windows don't compare to the Amiga OS, however the idea is
to get developers to develop (or keep them developing) for the Amiga.
Without software, the Amiga is of no use. To do this, you need good tools,
and very good developer support! Something the Commodore never had IMHO.
If you can't do that, your dead in the water. It don't matter how much
better the Amiga is. What matters is how much software you can sell!
There are not a hellova lot of Amigas out there, so some developers won't
even consider the Amiga. If you make it as easy as possible to port
Windows (or MAC <I hate the Mac>) apps to the Amiga, it might make them
consider it.
Also, they need to get the Amiga in some major stores. If people can't
see it, they can't buy it! Right now, I can't think of any local dealers
that carry anything for the Amiga. Well, a few magazines, but that's about
it.
As far as I go, I love my Amiga. But I also own a 486, and I buy software
for both platforms (most of it for the PC over the last year). If the
software will do what I need done (or it's a cool game), I buy it. I don't
care if it's PC or Amiga software.
Then there's the hardware. I think it needs the right price, AAA, a Hard
Drive, and a CD-ROM. It needs this on every Amiga. People don't use floppy
based machines anymore! As far as the price goes, you should be able to
pick one up for around 2k (040 Amiga, 8 megs ram, 340 meg HD, and CD-ROM).
-Troy
PS: I'm not looking to start a computer war here, I'm just giving my
opinion. As long as I am able to get the software I use on my Amiga, I'll
continue use it.
I don't mind developers developing software for the Amiga; In fact, I'm all for
it. To make it easy to port Windoze software would mean to give up a lot of
the benefits of our OS (IMHO). Here is a point to ponder: Remember when
Sierra was porting their games to the Amiga? They were pretty much direct
ports, with CGA style graphics and the PC's very limited sound capability (back
then) came with it. There was no attempt to take advantage of the Hardware.
Well, since the PC has grown up, that shouldn't matter anymore, right? Well,
almost right. Now we have to worry about no attempts to take advantage of the
Software (the OS). I seriously doubt the big name Intel developers would spend
the time or the money to train their programmers to 'do it right' with Amiga
ports. But, if they can hire some seasoned Amiga programmers to do the ports,
that would be great 🙂
In the mean time, think about this as a future ad:
Just released, Lotus 123 for AmigaDos! System requirements: A4000 '060 90MHZ
or better, 20MB RAM (40MB prefered) and a minimum of 100MB of available
hardrive space. List price: only $699.99! release date: as soon as it is
finished. <VBG>
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
That may be true for some older ports. However, I think the Amiga will
not make it unless there is more new software released. And to get more of
the latest software you need machines sold that have AGA+ graphics, more
RAM, more storage, a CDROM, etc.).
How many Amigas have a CD-ROM?
How many Amigas have a lot of RAM?
How many Amigas have large hard drives (or any hard drives)?
How many Amigas have AGA or better?
Most of the software we see on the PC or Mac is now on CD-ROM.
Just about all the software requires a Hard Drive.
Just about all of it is 256 colors or better.
Take for instance the game "Under a Killing Moon" (4 CD-ROMS, at least
256 colors, and a fast machine). If they ported this, how many could they
sell? It would take a lot of effort and low level code to do a game like
this. Not an easy port.
How about simple stuff like Microsoft Encarta. Should be an easy port!
But how many Amigas are out there that have a CD and can play AVI or QT?
The OS needs to take advantage of the hardware, not the programmer.
Simple apps like Encarta should be easy to create. To play a video/audio
sequence on the Amiga should be just as simple as playing QuickTime or
AVI. I don't think 30 fps is important for something like Encarta. If
someone at Commodore were to write QT & AVI libs for the Amiga, it would
be an easy task to do the port. The fact is on the PC or Mac you don't
need to know much of anything low level to use QT or AVI in an
application. There are tools (and things like MFC) that make it easy. You
don't even need to know how the compression is done! Hell I can fire up
Visual Basic and get an AVI playing in 2 minutes without writing any code,
and knowing nothing about Windows. Of course I would not use VB to write
real code, but at least I can get a quick prototype up and running 🙂
Why don't the Amiga have a file format and support libs that would allow
a programmer to play synced video/audio sequences in an application? And
supply tools to convert QT and AVI to this format? The Amiga can
outperform the Mac and PC with graphics no problem. You would think C=
would have done this long ago! Nope! No tools! Each programmer must figure
out Anim-7 (Anim-8 or whatever), the Amigas audio, the Amigas timing
ability, Palette control, etc. Then develop a "in-house" file format.
After you figure this out, you need to deal with the old non AGA machines!
How many shops are going to put forth such an effort in the limited Amiga
market? The ultimate MultiMedia machine don't even have a standard
audio/video format!
CEI ( or whoever gets the Amiga ) needs to help in this area. They need
to kiss ass and help as many developers as possible with the right tools,
and the right tech documentation and support. Then they need to advertise
and sell more Amigas to make it worth the effort. When people walk down
the isle at a large software store, they need to *SEE* Amiga titles just
like the thousands of PC and Mac titles or they wont buy the machine. We
can talk about the power of the Amiga all day long, it won't do any good,
C= thought it would and learned the hard way!
-Troy
PS: I know I'll be getting flamed for this message 🙂 But it's the way I
feel. Without a lot of Amigas out there, it's hard enough to get
developers. Anything they can do to help developers will make things a
whole lot better! It's sad, but the Amiga has to prove itself all over
again.
I, for one, wouldn't flame you for your message. You've hit the nail on
the head. If the Amiga's ever going to succeed outside of the niche
markets of video types and enthusiasts, it's going to need some way to tap
into those thousands of clone titles. When I was an Amiga dealer, the most
common question I'd hear was "Does it run MS-DOS software?"
-Jim
MOS via Autopilot & Amiga
Lately the only thing I use the Amiga for is Midi and going online. Soon
I'll be switching from Bars & Pipes Pro to Cakewalk (much better program).
The only reason I use the Amiga to go online is because I didn't get a
good term for the PC, and I like Autopilot better than WinCIM and Tapcis.
I'd like to see software like Cakewalk, Quicken, and Word on the Amiga
since I don't like Windows. I'd also like to see IDE's like Borland and
Visual C++, prototyping tools like Visual Basic, and easy access to
animation and sound on the Amiga.
Well enough of this, I'm repeating myself 🙂
Thats just it. We need CD-ROM software to hit big before masses of Amiga users
will buy a CD-ROM drive. The best thing would be for the new owners to bundle
a CD-ROM drive with each computer to make it a standard.
I have a CD-ROM on my A1200, I have 10MB RAM, I have a 500MB HD and a Syquest
44MB, and I have AGA, and I consider myself a casual user. This is the kind of
system that should go for home usage. If good software comes on CD-ROM, and it
gets publicized, then people will buy it (at least that works in the IBM world
🙂
Making libraries for the Amiga to use those formats would be a good idea to
make it easier to port. Then, maybe all that would be needed is a runtime
player to run in Amiga mode for all the data on a typical IBM cd. That could
easily be added to the CD-ROM disc itself, making the one cd play on multiple
platforms (just use the executable part for the particular machine). Just
think of how well that would get things started in the home computer end of
Amigas 🙂 This would, however, only work for games and interactive things
like encyclopedias (which, fortunately, make up a large percentage of all CD's
published in the IBM world). I think a great idea would be to make business
and graphics software on CD-ROM. These area's need to follow more of the
Amiga's specific programming guidelines.
I won't be flaming you on this, and I don't think many people will. I would
hope that whoever takes over will be smart enough to do all they can to support
developers. With that much of an investment at stake, they would be fools not
to. The Amiga may have to prove itself all over again, but at least it does
have the advantage of history. The advertising should include how the Amiga
was really the first in all of the things Bill Gates claimed he did.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
What would be real hot is to put the Amiga on a card and add a bus
extender (so Amiga cards can be added in an external box). Then sell it to
PC users as a graphic adapter that runs all existing Amiga software. Make
the card for around $450 and I'd get one 🙂 A reverse bridgeboard.
Sounds like it would be very complicated to build. Maybe with Jim Drew's
magic… :^)
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
Troy, you won;t be getting any flames from me. You're right about the lack of
tools. Comparing the best of the scripting type languages (CanDo, AmigaVision)
to VisualBasic is a joke == the "prototyped" software is often a real prdocut
— witness Intuit's Quicken…
–Gabe
Hear, hear. It's the same argument I run into with processor comparisons.
I don't particularly care whether a pentium is slower or faster than a
68040 unless I'm doing really heavy duty cpu access. From across the
keyboard my 1 meg 7MHz 68000 is blindingly fast compared to my 4meg 33MHz
386DX.
As you say, quick and dirty ports are unlikely to take advantage of OS or
coprocessors so if they become the standard you may as well throw them
away (until MS re-invents them 🙂
regards, Lu on AutoPilot downunder
I was beginning to wonder if I was alone on this subject, glad to see I'm not.
I know what you mean by machine performance. I have an A1200 '030 at 33Mhz and
8MB fast RAM and it outperforms by a *large* margin my clone Intel '486 DX 33
with 8MB RAM 256k cache running OS/2 Warp. It takes nearly 3.5 minutes just to
boot up, the windows take 5-10 seconds to open after clicking on the icons,
then if the sound effects are turned on, they don't sound until 2-3 seconds
after the windows open/close. Applications take 20-30 seconds to load, and are
very slow. I'm glad I got all that stuff for free, I would have hated to have
to pay for it (I was given this stuff to test it because I will be the OS/2
guru on my job. Joy).
I don't think MS will reinvent thier software. As a matter of fact, it will
only get worse. They have to develope large, slow applications to keep the
chip manufacturers in business.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
>> I don't think MS will reinvent thier software. As a matter of fact, it will
only get >> worse. They have to develope large, slow applications to keep the
chip >> manufacturers in business.
Gates owns a piece of Intel…, I am sure he also owns chunks of disk drive
companies… The Intel part I am pretty sure of — it's no wonder he has
programmers turn out big, slow but very multifeatured software. Tells the
users who want to use it for all those nifty cutesy features that they have to
have an upgraded pc to use them….
Troy,
You're probably just like me. I'ld rather have had one machine on my desk,
but I've got two. My old A2000 is a dinosaur and the cost of keeping it
current is outlandish.
When I bought my Amiga, the difference between the Amiga interface and the
MS-DOS interface was like night and day. But the IBM world has caught up and
is surpassing the Amiga as we speak. Sure, there are advantages to the Amiga,
but those advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages at this time.
If CEI can sell *me* on an Amiga over a hot new Pentium 100+MHZ machine when
I'm looking to buy sometime next year, then they've got a shot at competing.
Otherwise forget it.
What I'll be looking for is a fast (whatever is the state-of-the-art for
PC's) machine with 32 MB ram, 2 GB HD, 28,800 internal modem, CD-ROM, runs
MS-DOS in an Amiga window (with full windows capability), and Unix similarly.
The machine should allow file Xfers from all platforms. For the base system,
there should be bundled software as follows: Word Processor, Database,
Spreadsheet, Telecommunications (TCP/IP – full blown w/WWW), fax software,
desktop publishing. The system should also have several dozen games included
in the base package. The cost should be no greater than $3,500.
There should be several bundles available:
1) Developers package: C++ compiler, libraries, AREXX, GUI interface (like
VisualBasic), Basic, COBOL/CICS, 4GL (Sybase/Oracle clones), Pascal, Fortran.
Also, very important in this package is the ability to handle multimedia as
database data. Users must be able to store graphics, videos, music as data
items. There must be appropriate conversion routines to accept all standard
MAC and DOS format graphics and sound. Cost cannot be greater than $500.
2) Education package: Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Thesaurus, learning games for
the 2-8 age set, paint program, music program. Cost should not be greater than
$200.