#A2200
15 messages in this thread
John,
I sometimes think that people are destined to never learn…
Micros**t and Intel took over the computer world with an inadequate,
complicated hardware design running a 16-bit version of CP/M. How? Because
they had visibility, and they had a design that anyone could build.
Apple was sole source on the Macintosh, and with advertising and
visibility far beyond anything from Commodore, topped out at 12% of the
market.
The Amiga topped out at about 3% of the market; IBM with its Microchannel
topped out at about 5%.
Sole source doesn't work very well anymore. That is what will kill "the"
PowerPC-the fact that there are two very different "the Power PC"'s each
available from exactly one vendor. Computer chips are commodities, and to
attain significant market share, the system built around it must become a
commodity also. So license the design, and then sell manufacturing
licences to just about anyone.
Tab Trepagnier
Cruising on AutoPilot from Beaumont, Texas
Tab,
I completely disagree. The PowerPC won't be "killed" because just a couple of
versions come from a couple of places. NT will shortly be released running the
powerpc. At that time, creating working products for those machines is no more
complex than (a) getting a machine in-house and (b) re-compiling the
application.
As a concrete example, we developed our Windows NT applications on a MIPS
r4000. When we received our Alpha-based NT machine (about ten a.m.) we had our
Alpha version up and running before 5 pm. That's with time to load the
compilers on the machine as well as the SDK from CDROM, time off for lunch, and
a fair amount of gawking at how fast the thing was.
You can expect PowerPC porting to be just as easy, though I'm not at liberty to
go into detail on that at this time.
Windows NT is just the tip of the iceberg – the target hardware is going to
become more and more flexible, as the operating systems become more and more
homogenous. As long as manufacturers have the wit to jump on the NT bandwagon
(and they're doing it in droves), they're going to do well. So far, we have
MIPS, Alpha, Intel and PowerPC versions of NT. I understand there's even a
version NT coming for the PowerMac. If one arrives for the 68k family, that'll
about take care of the universe right there… but even if not, the majority of
the machines currently being manufactured are covered very well.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Why bother with a 68k version of NT? Run it in "native" mode on the upcoming
615, which will (supposedly) do hardware translation of both x86 and 68k code.
Imagine having AmigaDOS running under an NT window 🙂
Jonathan
Well, PowerPC NT is on the way. So that'd probably be pretty easy to get done,
given that you can get a PowerPC Amiga out the door, ANY door. 🙂
As for why bother with 68k, because there are millions of Amiga users out there
who could then use those new apps.
Having ADOS would probably be a separate boot… AmigaDOS is a VERY high
performance OS, and I don't think it'd run all that well "under" anything. Then
again, an Alpha is SO much faster than a 68040, maybe I'm underestimating it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I'd rather imagine NT running under an Amigados 4.0 window. 😉
Should prove more efficient, anyway, than the other way around B)
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Ben,
Please don't misunderstand me here. If you are right about the PowerPC
surviving its current sole source situation, then GREAT!
But I think we are sort of coming full circle here. The PowerPC was
proposed in 1992 by IBM, Apple, and Motorola to break "the Intel
stranglehold." OK, fine. Except, from my point of view, Intel is not the
problem. Micros**t is the problem; for it is Micros**t that is still
selling a single-tasking OS optimized for the 16-bit 80286. It is
Micros**t that is selling the world's most inefficient GUI that absorbs
rather than empowers powerful hardware. Intel, on the other hand, has been
selling 32-bit solutions since 1987.
Now we have NT for PowerPC. More slow, bloated, Micros**t OS software
running on hardware that solves no problem. I think this is a real shame,
because I have been following the PowerPC saga since its first
announcement. Why? Because with the Amiga evaporating into thin air, I was
determined that the next computer I spend thousands of my own dollars on
would AGAIN be an advanced design. I also looked forward to the idea of a
viable alternative to the PC, which is a powerful CPU sitting on a 1982
motherboard running a 1977 OS. In other words, I wanted my next computer
to be powerful, advanced, visible, and NOT a PC. The Amiga had all of this
except the visibility part.
By going their separate ways after over two years of development, IBM and
Apple have made this almost impossible. If I'm going to have to run
Windows NT, why should I not buy a Pentium and just be done with it?
Tab Trepagnier
Cruising on AutoPilot from Beaumont, Texas
Tab,
I disagree on several of your assertions.
NT solves a number of problems, one of them being your main gripe – it's not
designed to run on a 286. It doesn't have MSDOS as an underlying basis. It's
NOT "slow", It's a darn sight faster than std windows, and for that matter than
the Amiga OS (I base that assertion on the fact that our Pentium 90 under NT,
at a little less then 4x the clock of my A4000/25, runs over ten times faster
on *everything* OS-related), and offers a lot more developer services, which
translate into more powerful software. It's CPU independant, which is a BIG
gain. We also have something most people don't – we have numerous instances of
the same code, both non-OS and OS based, running on the Amiga and under NT, and
NT is _faster_, period, end of story.
Now, as for going with a Pentium over a RISC CPU, theres a very simple reason.
Speed. If that's important to you, then forget the Pentium. Yeah, it's very
fast for an Intel CPU, but it's roadkill next to an Alpha, if for no other
reason than the Alphas are WAY up there in clock rates. the MIPS CPUs, NT or
no, are also getting slaughtered by Alphas. SGIs, while the little darling of
the video guys right now, are junk hardware compared to an Alpha-based NT
machine. Ask Grant Boucher… regardless of anything else, he'll probably tell
you his Alpha is running away with rendering jobs as compared to an SGI, etc.
Certainly faster than a Pentuim _anything_.
Now, as to why the Amiga might be better as a RISC CPU over a MOT CPU, nah, I
don't think so. Not until/unless the RISC CPU's get even faster than they are
now so they can run a decent-speed emulation of a 68k platform.
NT's not perfect. Windows is _far_ from perfect. Ok. MicroSoft, however, is
working quite hard on the next step in the series, and it's a lot better. And
that's not the end, either. I truly believe that IF someone "buys into" the NT
/ Windows bandwagon, there's plenty of road ahead. I don't think it'll matter
squat which platform you go for, as long as the platforms themselves remain
viable. Right now, it costs about $7500 real dollars to get a "new" platform
and make a 100% viable version for that platform. If that's what it cost to
make a Mac version of our software, for instance, we'd have done it already.
Think it through: Buy $7500 workstation/thing. Make product. Divide cost of
workstation by the amount made per sale… (our NT products are $499 each). So
we have to sell only 15 copies, and the development cost is covered. Ok, lets
say we had something less expensive… more on the level of Quicken or
something like that. $100 each, 75 copies. You think we can't sell 75 copies?
Not hardly. I could sell 75 copies of $100 ice cubes to eskimoes if I worked
for ER, and I can at least sell 'em to Hawaians since I'm juyst little old
me… 🙂 After those sales, we're making money, more or less.
I think this makes it clear that a RISC _NT_ machine shouldn't be too much of a
risk. And who is responsible for this rosy future? Dare I say it? Microsoft is.
I think it's terrible, what's happening to the Amiga. I think it may get worse
and never get better. Ouch. But it's important not to transfer that resentment
sideways… methinks I hear people protesting too much, to rob a useful phrase.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben, as I respect your opinion on these matters, I'd like to ask you something
about NT. I asked the clerk at SoftItch what it would cost for them to order NT
for me, and he looked it up and told me $7xx. Some time later, I saw NT at
another store, with a $49 price tag on it. Cute bit of misdirection; they'd
placed it in the WFW shelf. But, the package said it was $279. Now, I've heard
of NT Server, which I think is what the SoftItch clerk priced for me…. what
would I need to run NT on a single machine? A single clone, I mean, rather than
an Alpha or Amiga (sorry, couldn't resist the pun 🙂
<waving>
Good post!
NT is not there yet, but it may get there. We're getting our first NT
machine at work, and It's been a big headache so far because of driver
problems, but it should turn out to do the job we need, mostly anyway,
though at a cost! (I have to set up an OS/2 machine to sit along side to
run the NT machine's printer!)
And before someone asks, we're putting NT on the new machine just to run 1
Win32 program. Otherwise OS/2 would've done the job too.
Bob Comer
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.
Robert,
Since OS/2 Warp supports Win32s apps, why not use that? For that matter, you
can download the 32-bit libraries for plain old Windows, and use that. Works
for me…
Jonathan
Robert,
OS/2 Warp supports Win32s apps…. you could have upgraded your OS to run
that 1 app.
-Jonathan
// Amiga online via Autopilot. MAC Quadra 900 and
\X/ 486 emulation. E-Mail: jonathanb@delrina.com
<<I don't think it'll matter squat which platform you go for, as long as
the platforms themselves remain viable.>>
Bullseye Ben! Absolutely right.
Trent/ReAnimators
>90mhz pentium
That's not a fair comparison even if you say 10x with less than 4x clock. You
need to compare a 4000 040 to a 25mhz 486 with 10 wait-state RAM (if you can
find one)…
>By going their separate ways after over two years of development, IBM and
>Apple have made this almost impossible. If I'm going to have to run
>Windows NT, why should I not buy a Pentium and just be done with it?
You will be able to run OS/2, and eventually Talegent, on a PowerPC, but
the ONLY available os's right now are AIX and Mac. Yes, IBM has PowerPC
systems out, but they run AIX for now.
Motorola is the party doing the NT port. (They have their own computers
that will be out soon.)
Bob Comer
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.