#Why I won't upgrade
27 messages in this thread
Nice, but none of that changes the fact that there are ZERO new FEATURES
(hint: speed improvements, optimizations, etc. are not FEATURES, they are
PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENTS–there do be a difference) in 3DSr"4" (which I will
refer to from now on in this and all future postings as 3DSr3.5 whether
Autodesk likes it or not) that are visible to the end user without the use of
plug-ins. Performance enhancements alone have NEVER justified incrementing the
integer portion of a version or release number for ANY other software package
on ANY platform in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF COMPUTING to the best of my knowledge,
and my knowledge of such stretches pretty far and wide.
What is so ironic here is that Autodesk itself has done it RIGHT in the case
of Autodesk Animator Pro 1.0, 1.3, and 1.3a! Why the rush to have an
inadequate product labeled Release "4" when at best it's 3.5? Just because you
said you'd have a major new release every year? And you just couldn't deliver
this year? That may not be what happened, but that's certainly what it looks
like, and it is LOUSY P.R. Note that a review of Release "4" in 3D Artist a
few months back called it "Release 3.5" on the cover and in the Table of
Contents, though all mentions in the article itself did indeed say "Release
4"–almost as if it had indeed been called 3.5 at one point and Autodesk had
informed 3D Artist of a name change and they did a Global Search and Replace on
the article itself but forgot to do so for the cover and Table of Contents!
Great messages you've been leaving on the release numbers. Very informative. I
totally agree with you except, that I've been calling it IPAS Disk #8. In a
way, I figure, who cares though? We'll just get to release 10 faster this way.
I would have purchased the IPAS disk for the same price, because of the IK
anyway. I do think it was unappropriate to name it R4, and 3.x would have been
a much better decision. But, who am I. <g> Take care.
Dave Mennenoh
What's in a name? The program works the same whether it is called 3.2, 3.5,
4.0 or 43.708b? Why does anyone care what it is called?
Besides, I've paid more for a single IPAS routine than I paid for the upgrade,
and I would have paid much more than that for IK alone!
And IMHO, as long as it works as well as it does, they can call it whatever
they d*mn well please!
Greg Pyros
Alright Greg!
Jh
<What's in a name?> Greg, actually, a great deal is in a name. We are all
accustomed to the terrific upgrade path the YOST Group has achieved. Terrific
Releases and excellent in between bug fixes. 4.0 is a wiggle wherein who
developed what, how, and how well becomes a question. There are many users now
somewhat nervous as a result of 4.0. Like yourself, everyone is saying "This is
no 3.0 to 4.0, and some of the new features in 4.0 are terribly suspect. In
short, What is in a name is the confidence and enthusiasm shared bye 3-DS users
worldwide. We have literally been coming into our own, and the building energy
is a delight. We have invested a great deal of time, effort and money into this
platform. the market place is a brutal affair, and corporate mistakes can cost
dearly. So, as 3-DS goes 3rd party plug-in and the platforms popularity and
increased user-base changes the playing field and the competition: I want to
see the core programmer in the drivers seat. The guys who can deliver a module
like IK, and everything else THEY developed, are the quality programers this
platform requires. I don't want to see users everywhere installing a new
realease and then going <sigh>. You see, for me it is two fold. I am a helpless
devotee and probably could not withstand the learning curve of yet a new 3-D
platform. I remember when Topaz, at $12000, got blown out of the water. So I
yell at the top of my immature and forever adolescent lungs (as opposed to the
rest of my aging and really exhausted [user manual/tutorial/3rd party
literature fatigue syndrome]
YELL FOLLOWS C'mon YOSTers, go do it for R5. C'mon
Autodesk, listen up and be smart. We are the user-base, and we can tell in a
nano-second what's what. <little blush for my unrepressed zeal>
Hi Jeffrey,
<< listen up and be smart. We are the user-base, and we can tell in a
nano-second what's what. <little blush for my unrepressed zeal> >>
Zeal is fine.
Autodesk and the Yost group are listening to the world community. Gary's team
is working hard on R5 which is driven by the needs and wishes of the users as
well as Gary thinking about your needs a few years from now. Some wishes may
never be implemented and some wishes take time to implement, but Gary takes all
wishes under consideration.
autodesk-hat-off…
My personal challenges are in creating complex animated scenes quickly. Inverse
Kinematics, along with Scripting, allow me to create many key frames
predictably and with custom control. I am creating scenes that I would not have
attempted, under a schedule, with only R3. These two tools can increase your
productivity tremendously, once they are understood. For a production
environment, this means more $$.
hat-on…
As the individual who supports the IPAS SDK, for me, the different R4 modules,
visibly demonstrate to the potential Plug-In developer, the kinds of data
structure access and architecture access available now in IPAS4. Knowing what
is now possible through IPAS4, and how the architecture had to change to
support the new IPAS4 support…. 3ds deserves to be 3ds4.
As an aside.. AutoCad has over 2,000 developers writing add on's to the base
package. Gary's team continues to design an ever more powerful and open
architecture for developers to "Plug-In". This is where it's going. I hope you
stay for the ride. 🙂
jonas[adesk]
Hiya Jonas,
I agree with all you said, about the new IPAS 4 an' all, but it
would have been nice to get some new features as 'standard' with R4.
Most other 3D Packages now have particle motion (explode etc) and a spline
modeller as standard.
With 3DS you have to buy em separately (and 3DS costs more than the others) and
the particle systems from Yost are back from R2 for heavens sake..
The competition has been catching up and IPAS can be a double edged sword,
because an IPAS is out, that feature never becomes core product, even when it
should be.
Hi Stuart,
<<.. but it would have been nice to get some new features as 'standard' with
R4. Most other 3D Packages now have particle motion (explode etc) and a spline
modeller as standard. >>
Yes… noted…
<< With 3DS you have to buy em separately (and 3DS costs more than the others)
and the particle systems from Yost are back from R2 for heavens sake.. >>
Not quite true.. Have you checked out Flame and Vapor? This was done useing R3
IPAS technology. The UI's are all different and I think you'll like it. You can
find demo flics of Flame and Vapor in the IPAS Usage section of the lib.
jonas[adesk]
Yep I have purchased the Flame/Vapour combo, and their UI is great, which was
really my point..(I tend to be a bit vague…;)
The problem seems to be with IPAS that once a routine is released, it kind of
just stagnates, like the explodes etc.
I would expect that if I have to buy explode separately from 3DS 4, that it
could at least work like flame/vapour etc.
It just looks like once an IPAS is released, the only updates it gets are
bugfixes etc, and no-one releases a competing one, because there is
already one that 'does the job'
But I must say all in all that I am pleased with my R4, and am looking forward
to getting a PAR and bypassing my tape/Vista woes.
Thanx for the reply!
>>once an IPAS is released, the only updates it gets are bugfixes etc., and
no-one releases a competing one, because there is already one that 'does the
job'<<
Not totally true, Stuart. Digimation is getting ready to release LensFX, which
will have new lens flare, highlight, and glow capabilities, along with animated
"Z-Blur" effects. Schrieber has had a competing trees/foliage IPAS for some
time now. I suspect we'll find more and more older IPAS routines re-done as
time goes on…
-Alan
Your complaints about older Yost Boutique IPAS's not getting upgraded to the
latest in IPAS technologies has been agrued/discussed here before, with general
thought that maybe the YG could contract with outsiders to do interface
upgrades to them, etc. (that is, general thought amongst the discussers, NOT
including members of the YG).
Just remember that the Yost Boutique IPAS's are THIRD-PARTY applications —
they are not official Autodesk "add-on's" for 3DS, and as such, your irritation
regarding their "up-to-date-ness" should be tempered. If there is a need for
better and more imroved versions, someone will come along and make them (as
Digimation is doing with their new LENSfx package). Granted, if you own the
older YG version, you might not be excited to have to buy a brand new package
instead of an upgrade….
Dave
>>Autodesk and the Yost group are listening to the world community. Gary's team
is working hard on R5 which is driven by the needs and wishes of the users as
well as Gary thinking about your needs a few years from now.<<
I'm glad. I would hope, however, that software development is not simply a
matter of asking which buttons people want added and then holding a vote to see
which ones make it in. I would rather see it as the development of tools. We
tell you what we do, you clever people come up with the screwdrivers and
hammers that we can use. In return, we send you money.
Which brings me to r4 <g>. Like a lot of people on this forum, I was a little
worried when the patch modeller was dropped so late in the game. Not because I
was desperate for a patch modeller, but because Autodesk has the well known
reputation of never saying a word about anything until it's ready to be
released. To have them go back and revise announced features was disturbing,
especially dropping features I had just seemed demoed by Glenn Wilson of
Autodesk Canada a week before!
I work for an architectural firm and we just got our copy of r4 last week.
This, at least for me, is not a worthy upgrade. Yes, I can imagine that those
who are using the package for character animation will find IK a godsend and
I'll probably have fun using the scripting module in my own fred time but in
terms of what we actually use 3DS for, it doesn't really have anything for us.
We do mostly still images and when we do do animations… well, frankly, we
don't build many 60 story office buildings with knee joints so IK isn't of any
real use. Our models are complex so that even on a Pentium 90, the fast preview
is not usable. This may not be everyone's experience but I think I can make a
blanket statement:
The R4 upgrade is not nearly as good as the R3 one was.
As I said, I'm glad to here the Yost group is working hard on r5. But because
of R4, we will look hard at the features list when it comes out, we will wait
until it actually comes out before we order it (we sent our disk in before the
patch-modeller was dropped) and it is no longer automatic that we will upgrade.
As others have said in this thread, there are many other packages out there.
Please understand that I'm not out to roast anyone, I'm just trying to give
constructive feedback from one kind of user.
Bruce Meikle
WZMH Architects
Hi Bruce,
<< I work for an architectural firm and we just got our copy of r4 last week.
This, at least for me, is not a worthy upgrade. Yes, I can imagine that those
who are using the package for character animation will find IK a godsend and
I'll probably have fun using the scripting module in my own fred time but in
terms of what we actually use 3DS for, it doesn't really have anything for us.
We do mostly still images and when we do do animations… well, frankly, we
don't build many 60 story office buildings with knee joints so IK isn't of any
real use. Our models are complex so that even on a Pentium 90, the fast preview
is not usable. This may not be everyone's experience but I think I can make a
blanket statement:
The R4 upgrade is not nearly as good as the R3 one was.
As I said, I'm glad to here the Yost group is working hard on r5. But because
of R4, we will look hard at the features list when it comes out, we will wait
until it actually comes out before we order it (we sent our disk in before the
patch-modeller was dropped) and it is no longer automatic that we will upgrade.
As others have said in this thread, there are many other packages out there.
Please understand that I'm not out to roast anyone, I'm just trying to give
constructive feedback from one kind of user.
Bruce Meikle
WZMH Architects >>
The Autodesk MultiMedia Division Manager along with Gary and others at Adesk,
have been reading this thread.
<< constructive feedback from one kind of user. >>
Thanks for the feedback. 🙂
jonas[adesk]
Jeffrey:
I agree with just about everything you've said, but I seem to be more lenient
towards a release number than you.
I can't fault Adesk for a decision like naming something differently than you
or I would have, the program is called 3D Studio, I just want to make sure I
have the latest version, and the the number following that is just not as
important to me as to others here. That's all I was saying.
Greg Pyros
Greg, the hype that surrounded R4 publicity and the coast to coast roll- out
seminar brought the entire user-group, and the 3-D community to focus a
tremendous amount of attention on R4. As a result, we now have all of this
discomforting noise. My confidence in the Yost Group and 3-DS remains very high
and I will hunker back down into my dungeon till R5 makes it's appearance.
However, it should be clearly understood that disappointments surrounding a
number of features, and the supporting publicity that preceeded these features,
are the cause of this negative noise. I am receiving numerous calls every week
as fellow animators install their upgrade. SO… in order not to continue this
string as simply a negative track and highly non-productive, I will insert the
follwing tangent: I have been on 3-DS since pre-2.0. Upgraded through 4.0 and
have a rather serious investment in IPAS routines. The 3-DS environment is now
profoundly and intrinsically part of my creative process. Competition is going
to become much more fierce as computer speed grows and the user base of 3-D
animation explodes exponentially. Continued upgrades of 3-DS will have to be
very sensitive to what the core program is to include. Going 3rd Party, with as
powerful a direction as that can be, opens obvious vulnerable spots regarding
ultimate responsibility, overall platform cost, and difusion. Software that is
this sophisticated and elegant, with such an informed and demanding user-base,
has earned a name. But it also sets the target. We all know the felling that
surrounds upgrading our most preferred platforms. Notwithstanding minor bugs
and individual niche needs, upgrading should be accompanied with a huge grin
followed by nose stuck to manual, and that is all!!!! I sincerely hope that we
are all on the first tier, still using 3-DS R[X] for years and years to come…
then one day, in the middle of yet another session, somewhere in the middle of
a REAL-TIME preview, after a perfect PERSPECTIVE MATCH, performing an
impeccable PATCH edit, including and excellent ARCHIT MODEL import, etc. etc.
etc. I will see the light, and just lay my head down on my keyboard and cease
to exist. As the warmth drains out of my body, the weight and tension of my
head will subtely change and effect the last perfect keystrokes and %GO TO
RENDER ALL% Jeffrey
Hi Jeffrey,
<< still using 3-DS R[X] for years and years to come… then one day, in the
middle of yet another session, somewhere in the middle of a REAL-TIME preview,
after a perfect PERSPECTIVE MATCH, performing an impeccable PATCH edit,
including and excellent ARCHIT MODEL import, etc. etc. etc. I will see the
light, and just lay my head down on my keyboard and cease to exist. As the
warmth drains out of my body, the weight and tension of my head will subtely
change and effect the last perfect keystrokes and %GO TO RENDER ALL% >>
:-)..
Jeffrey:
Well put!
Greg Pyros
What's in a name? Ask Adobe, who went back to using "#.#" after their
"Adobe Illustrator '88" experiment failed miserably.
I will upgrade, don't become angry Californian… I will as soon as my reseller
phone me that the upgrade is finally available north of border. The problem
here is can we upgrade !!!
Pierre:
>> The problem here is can we upgrade !!!
A much worse problem to have, I agree! Sort of puts it all into perspective.
Not much of a choice, is there? I hope it arrives soon for you!
Greg Pyros
Real Question – Where is my 3D NT! As a shop which specializes in
horsepower via hardware and software – COMDEX was interesting with
Lightwave and Hash/Playmation already in BETA on NT. Are Yost and
Autodesk splitting the coding effort??? We have offered our services
to help with NT version of MCS. It would be a natural follow-on to
"Green House". – Matt / AM Labs
You know that Adesk is very tightlipped about their future products,
but REALLY, we need to give these guys credit for knowing what
they're doing. And besides it isn't too hard to figure it out
anyway.
You saw AutoCAD make the move to Windows, knowing that Win95 is
coming in a few months and that NT is here in version 3.5 AND that
DOS is no longer a part of either of these…. Just put 2+2.
I agree – we got confirmation 3 months ago.
At COMDEX when I asked to see the SGI version of Lightwave mentioned
in their press materials, the fellow running the Windows demo said
that someone had STOLEN thier Indigo-2 !!!
Yes, that's true. Someone walked off with an Indy after-hours. Fortunately, it
didn't have any source code on it. I know NewTek has been stupid enough to
have machines in the booth with code on them. 🙂
Incredible ! Thanks for the confirmation on that John. I wasn't certain if they
were telling me the truth or coming up with a wild excuse not to show me the
SGI version. I'll just have to wait until NAB.
Bruce N. Goren
From their organization I can see why it walked off… The booth was wide open.