NoteBook – The Program!
46 messages in this thread
[ continuation ]
Things that make you say, "Hmmmmm." 9-)
Third problem: When using the EDIT text function the cursor gets put on
the next line instead of where the mouse click was and one has to up arrow
and down arrow to get to the right place. When inserting NEWLINEs (i.e.
RETURN) odd chars where inserted infront of text. Note: the text where
this happened had just been imported.
Now for some suggestions:
The 'sleeping' window is, IMHO, too small. It only has one, maybe two
pixel lines to select. On more than one occasion I have had to click about
it altogether too many times.
It would be very handy for a program like Notebook to be able to start it
up and have it immediately go into the "sleeping" mode. That way a user,
like me, could start it during bootup and use it when the mood strikes.
Since my machine spends most of its time "up" a long'ish bootup time is not
a real problem.
– Nelson Ingersoll
– via Whap!
Ok, nelson – thanks for the comments and the reports. We'll apply both as
needed to improve the product.
You should be able to have the fixes shortly.
Ben
PS: If you use the tools, like cut, when you have objects selected, I think
you'll find everything is fine… not to say there isn't a problem, but
with correct use you should be ok.
Ben –
Er, um, 'correct use'. Uh, Ben… have you been taking, um, Politically
Correct Thought classes recently? 9-) The first time I clicked on the
button, I presumed (BM, before manual 9-) that it activated the CUT
function. Generally I _expect_ a iconified program, such as NoteBook, to
be generically obvious to use… i.e. Christmas Morning Syndrome… I ran
it 'afore I RTFM. Heh heh.
If my reports were not specific enough to replicate problems, please let
me know. I will tighten up my reporting to make it somewhat easier for
you.
Later…
– Nelson
– via Whap!
I am *not* saying that we expect it to be used correctly, and that there is
no problem. I am saying, yes, there is a bug, but it only shows up if you
do the "worng" thing. So, now that you KNOW that, do the right thing, and
we'll fix it. You can avoid the problem until we make it nonexistant,
without losing any capabilities that are built into the program.
As for not reading the manual… tch tch. :^)
Ben
Ben –
Really! I was just kidding. And you did set yourself up for it too!
(Victim as perpatrator theory! 9-) But, NOW that I know the RIGHT thing to
do I will… until the next version. 8)
Reading manuals *first* is for dweebs. I read the manual(s) only when I
don't intuitively understand something… or when I'm in a HURRY to do it
right! 9-) Like when I installed WSHELL and did an ASSIGN DISMOUNT CON: (in
User-Startup) before completely understanding what I was about. Aren't
manuals wonderful?
– Nelson …
– via Whap!
"Manuals are for…"
I think this is one of the great disservices that is done to software that
people work hard over. I wish people would take the time to RTM, they'd
benefit from it enormously in most cases.
Oh well.
Ben
Ben,
I agree with you about reading the manuals. People can usually learn to
use some of the most obvious features of a program without it, but I think
anyone who fails to read the manual will miss many of the finer points of
any kind of software, not to mention the fact that is so much easier to do
things after the manual tells you how it is done!
Betty
yes… also, when you read the manual, you know how it's supposed to
work… that makes it SO much nicer when people provide feedback of any
kind, from bug reports to suggestions. I can't even begin to count the
number of questions I've received from legitimate users that I've answered
by "Turn to page X of the manual. Begin reading at the line or
paragraph…"
Any manual can be improved… the best way to make it happen is to use it
and feedback. At least that's the case with us. I suspect that other
developers who put a lot of work into manuals, like ASDG, respond the same
way.
Like I said… oh well. :^)
Ben
Ben –
Actually, your right … and wrong… Quality software very often
doesn't need the manual to be read for the user to get going. OTOH> I do
not complain when I can't get something to work and I haven't read the
manual. What I often do is read the manual far enough to get "it" going…
whatever it is. Then, after playing with "it" for awhile, typically long
enough to get a feel for "its" layout, I pick up the manual and try to read
it cover to cover. With some manuals this is either difficult, e.g. SAS/C
Manual, or BORING. However, I did read the NoteBook manual after I get the
program going.
– Nelson …
– via Whap!
Quality software isn't a synonym for professional or complex software – nor
is there a natural link between the two. UNfortunate perhaps, but true.
Diving into a program sans knowledge of how it works can provide you with
anything from a dissapointment to loss of critical data and files. I've
learned not to do it – ever.
Ben
Ben –
You are absolutely correct. Quality isn't a synonym for professional
or complex… anything. However, quality, at least in software, implies
that the program will not fail in the face of adverse input. That is all
that I ever wanted to imply.
I am really enjoying NoteBook so far. It's got a few quirks, and
probably a few bugs; but it is a novel product that I am really beginning
to believe I can use. Keep up the good work!
– Nelson
– via Whap!
Oh, we'll keep working on it. :^)
Count on that!
Ben
Hey Ben:
Remember I said I was going to gripe at you aboute the NoteBook user
interface and the lack of text to identify commnad/control icons? Well,
never mind. 🙂 After using for a few days (and reading the manual) it
really does become quite intuitive. Nice job.
I am in the process of creating my first NoteBook. It's called DOCS and
contains all of the documentation files (separated with tabs, of course)
for all of the PD, Shareware, and Commercial programs I have that included
disk documentation files. Bye bye three ring binder!
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
I'm glad to hear that the icons made some sense once you got into the
program. I drew a fair number of them myself, so I'm feeling a bit warm and
fuzzy. :^)
Ben
"I drew a fair number of them myself…"
..I still like text, menus, and keyboard shortcuts <ducking & running>
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Nelson,
Good plan! I will start a section right away for short, one-line
descriptions of all the PD stuff I have that I can never remember even the
basic function of. 🙂
-larry
Hmm… I rather like the tiny window to be as tiny as possible. Perhaps
Pete could use a slightly dfferent method of detecting when the user wants
to bring up the main screen. The first thing that comes to mind is
detecting ACTIVEWINDOW and checking to see if the mouse is over the tiny
window. (checking the mouse position is to prevent bringing up the main
screen when using some other method to cycle through window selections.
-larry
Larry –
I like the tiny window too! My only complaint is that I spend so much
time clicking around to activate it sometimes. Your suggestion may well be
the solution that satisfies everybody.
– Nelson …
– via Whap!
Hear! Hear! I'm all for ACTIVEWINDOW activating NB. Good tought.
–jp–seattle–
While we're wishing… I'd like the iconified NoteBook to remain as the
foremost window in the same way that DC CLOCK does! I hate digging through
screens looking for that little sucker!
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
One thing about active window…. it means you can't drag it or f/b it…
because those things make it active. Better to just make it a few lines
bigger, methinks.
Ben
On eof the tings (or things) I hate about my paper notebooks, is all the
fumbling around I have to do to dig it up from under the stack of papers on
my desk (my desk has qualified for an Urban Development Grant). It's not
so much the getting to the notebook… it's the disturbing of the papers on
top of it that sometimes causes the problem. BBS NoteBook, for me, doesn't
really address this, because to have it accessible it must be iconified…
and with other windows open, it gets buried too. Maybe a hot key
assignment that would bring the iconified window to fron AND activate it?
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
yep, that's a possibility. OTOH, you could leave it's screen open and just
flip to it. :^)
Ben
"…you could leave it's screen open and just flip to it."
Ben:
(yeach!) To tell you the truth… I wish the page were sizeable so that I
could keep a text editor in the top half of my screen, notebook in the
lower half, and be able to quickly cut & paste between them. I really
appreciate being able to see both pieces of work that I'm using at the same
time. But maybe that's just me.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Another thought on NB, I've already several times dragged it down halfway
to see the WB underneath, but the dang sprites just sit there on top of the
WB. Now I know that the sprites are screen independent, so it cannot be
helped. But why do you have to use sprites in the first place? Couldn't
the lines, holes, etc just be the *bottommost* layer of objects on the
screen, that could not be erased (unless toggled off)?
Suggestion #2: I'm surprised that a BB product doesn't have the ability to
change it's DEFAULTS? I know that every time I've used it I've changed the
font size (sorry, but 8 is just too small for these tired old eyes!),
style, have to load a nb, etc…. couldn't virtually all of this be made
into defaults, like in IP and such? That's user-configurability!
–jp–seattle–
I think that your message was directed at Ben…? Ansi since I'm sure
he'll see it… let me add my 2 cents: I agree.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Configurability is something we're thinking about.
As for dragging, don't do that – that's why there is no drag bar on there.
I'll tell you what else – if there is a way, we'll disable that capability
of the operating system. I still think it was a major mistake to put it in
the OS.
Why did we use sprites? Tons of reasons. They aren't really there; that
means you don't have to account for them when you're drawing. It speeds
things up. You can put them on and off the page without redrawing.
Ben
A few thoughts, re configurability and such:
1) allow a default text font. I like to use Topaz 11, for instance, cause
it is readable 🙂
2) If I've specified a different sized font, how about automatically
changing the ruled paper (grid is ok) to match the font size. I like ruled
paper, but using an 11 point font it's pretty meaningless, and messy. So I
can't use ruled paper 🙁
3) How about changing the way the highlihter tool works? I don't know
about you, but the way I USE a normal hilighter is to scribble it back and
forth on the text. How about just changing it to a vertical brush the same
height as the text it is over? (ie. if highting swall-8 text then it would
be a vertical line, 8 high? if using Topaz-11 it would be 11 high, etc?)
Other than that it pretty much functions as a freehand tool, but maybe
contrained to the horizontal axis?
4) I don't see how to change the color of the hilight after I've laid it
down, other than deleting it and starting over? Please allow me to change
the color, and also to set the default color of the hilight… so I don't
have to switch it every time I start up.
5) When 'aiming' to edit text, how about changing the 'hot spot' of the
mouse so it correspond with the BULLSEYE of the cursor. Right now I have
to aim at the line ABOVE the line I want to edit, in order to select the
correct line. See what I mean? Intuitively I'd sure like to 'aim and
shoot' so to speak!
6) I'll often have two notebooks open at once on the WB. Mine, and wifes.
Could potentially have more too. This is possible right now by running it
twice, but the titlebars of each of them (inconfied) are the same. 'NB'
How about putting the filename in the titlebar of the iconfied window?
Makes identifying them easier! Also, it appears that NB cannot be made
'resident'? So that multiple books open at once don't have to load copies
for each (at 350K a crack)?
–jp–seattle–
Please don't disable screen dragging. It's a feature of the system that
you could work with, with a little more work. There's no good reason to
disable it.
…Steve
Or, can you detect double clicks? Single clicking would allow
repositioning, etc…. double clicking would activate. ??
–jp–seattle–
We've made the window larger… the window needed to be aware of it's bar
layer height – there was only a line or two you could hit. Now, it has some
room for you. Much better behaved under 2.0
I think the idea of it's coming to front on a regular basis isn't bad – if
it's an option set by the user.
Ben
Hear hear! Optional 'bring to front' is FAR better than fixed behaviour
that may just countermand the user's wishes. I have another few programs
that have the severely annoying habit of popping their screens to the front
after finishing some operation that takes a fair while. When it's going to
take a while, I push it to the back and start doing something else. It can
be quite a shock to have that background (to me) job terminate and intrude
on what I am doing.
-larry
>"It can be quite a shock to have that background (to me) job terminate and
intrude on what I am doing."<
Larry:
Even if what's intruding is an iconified window that quietly sits in a one
inch wide space in the title bar? If you haven't seen how DCclock works,
you might enjoy it. The program is a very small title bar clock program
here in the libs. It allows yo to decide exactly where it sits, and it
always tries to remain as the frontmost window so that it is visible.
It opens from my startup sequence, and if I want it to go away, it's gone
with a single mouse click. Pretty slick. Check it out if you can. It's
called DCclock and the program is only 8k unarchived, so the download is
very quick.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
I've seen DClock, and many others of the type. No, even a small, iconified
window popping to the front bothers me, for a couple of reasons. The first
is that if I wanted it there, that's where I'd put it. The second has to do
with uneven scrolling when two different sized windows everlap. It's due to
the actions of the layers library, and bothers me a lot (though not so much
on the 3000). I don't run anything like DClock because of that. I do like a
clock (and other information) on screen, so I use the titlebar stuff in
WShell to good advantage.
-larry
Ben:
As for iconification, perhaps the idea of having the program actually sleep
(no small window, or icon on the WB) and a hotkey to call the program can
be done? I love having CED started in the S-S and then calling it anytime I
need it with either a hotkey, or small calling program, seems to me that NB
would be another application that would be perfect for that sort of
operation. I leave my system on all the time, and I HATE having small
windows opened by programs hanging around, but it sure would be nice to be
able to hit a hotkey and have NB come up with a default notebook file all
ready to go to work.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike, I agree. However, doing this will lock it into 2.0, as that
capability will use the commodities stuff, not available under 1.3; Pete
(the fellow who is doing the major portion of the coding) has only had 2.0
up and running since last friday. So he's not yet ready to be sticking in
2.0 specific features. It won't be long, though.
Ben
Ben:
Why would it HAVE to use 1.0 features? CED has been doing this for a while
before 2.0 was available.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
You mean 2.0, I presume…
We're not going to worry about supporting an OS which we consider to be
obsolete; we're aware that a lot of people haven 't made the change, but
they will eventually. As far as we're concerned, there is only one Amiga OS
– the current one – 2.0 period.
As soon as we use a feature of the OS that is 2.0 only, we'll configure the
program so that it will not run under 1.3.
We believe that the Amiga community NEEDS to make the change to 2.0; we're
doing our part to make that change quicker.
Compared to 2.0, 1.3 is buggy, limited in function, and UgLy! The Amiga
deserves to put on a better face than 1.3; CBM _made_ us suffer with it for
years, now we can throw off the rags and put on party clothes. 1.3 is dead.
Good riddance.
Ben
Ben:
I agree fully, 2.0 is IN, 1.3 OUT as far as I'm concerned.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Now if only Commodore would stop shipping systems with 1.3 in ROM…
A dealer friend told me that Commodore was planning to sell two models of
the A2000 next year–one with 1.3 and one with 2.04 that's $100 more.
Hopefully Commodore just has a warehouse full of 1.3 A2000s and this isn't
an indication that US Marketing plans to continue to ship both OS versions.
My understanding is that 2.0 will become "the" OS early this year, as far
as ROMs in place. Hopefully this is so.
Ben
Ben,
An alternative approach might be to trap a right-mouse-button to cause
the iconified window to open. That way, all the user would have to do is
left-click to activate the window and right-click to zoom it. Would be
fairly easy to remember, and a lot easier for those of us using an
interlaced WB screen than trying to get the exact alignment to click inside
the tiny hot zone. It also wouldn't interfere with the need to move the
iconified window.
Just a thought….
…BobR
Heck, if you're going to do that, why not just put the little 'zoom' gadget
on it (for WB2.0 at least), and let that be the unZoom feature? Why not
stick with the system designed gadget, anyway?
I'd like that, plus Mike S's idea of a hot-key, with or without window. I'd
sure like to call NB up whenever, with just a keystroke.
Gee…. *if* you do a keystroke system, I've a request. I suspect I'll end
up just leaving NB running full screen all the time, since I have 2meg of
chip. If a hot-key will activate it, how about it the hot key also
automatically brings the NB screen to front, if it's already open? That
way I could run it in the background, screen open, and have it 'pop' to
front on command. That way the screen redraw time would be zilch too.
Neat. ?? (of course, the same hot key would send it to the back if it was
currently open in front…. just a toggle)
Boy NB sure inspires a bunch of suggestions! That means folks are USING
it! TTFN
–jp–seattle–
Ok, John – I hear you.
Ben
Yeah, but if BB just allows the darn icon to open at a specific place
everything would be fine with me. I've got a little spot on my WB already
all picked out! 🙂
–jp–seattle–
JP:
I have a feeling that Ben will soften up on this one and find a good
compromise. After all, he'll need something to put in all of those
once-a-week updates that BalckBelt is famous for 🙂
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael