#1280×1280 24Bit
25 messages in this thread
I am looking for information on how to view and edit a 24 bit 1280×1280
picture on the Amiga. What will I need to do this and is anyone doing
this now? – I need to be able to see and edit the ENTIRE picture on the
screen. It looks like the new Visinoa board might be able to do this?
Thanks
.>Scott:
<AutoPilot:
You can do this with Imagemaster, a product from our company.
Imagemaster can operate in entire-image-on-screen mode, or pix for pixel
modes. In a stock Amiga, astounding display quality can be had. Add-on
display boards are also supported.
Imagemaster has the most 24-bit picture editing capability of any Amiga
software product.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I want to be able to view AND modify pixel by pixel of the image on the
screen, as far as I knew the stock Amiga cannot do this. What I guess I
was asking was what hardware/software combination would I need to do this
effectively?
.>Scott:
<AutoPilot:
The Amiga CAN do it, using Imagemaster. Surprise! <grin>
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
It can?? – I need to be able to SEE the entire image at the same time,
that means my display has to be able to take the 1280×1280 right??
.>Scott:
<AutoPilot:
Nope. :^)
Imagemaster can scale any image into a full screen, and you can work on it
that way – we call that "entire image" mode. Then we have "exact image"
mode, where each pixel of your image is 1:1 with screen pixels, and you
scroll the display to cover the part you want. There is a third option,
where you can cut out a "piece" of an image into what is essentially an
isolated NEW image, work on it (either way, exact or entire) and then if
the results are as you like, you "restore" that subimage into the one you
cut it out of – a simple operation; all cut out buffers know where they
came from.
Imagemaster operates this way: Lets say you have a 1280×1280 image, and
it's scaled into the display in entire image mode. Since you have it in
640×400, for instance, you're not seeing every pixel – but you're seeing
most of it. Now, say you want to do something, oh, increase the contrast,
of a freehand region. First, you mark the are you want to affect. Then,
Imagemaster scales that marking back to the size of the original –
1280×1280 – and applies the operation (contrast in this case) to the
original in the exact area you marked. Then, the (new) results are updated
to the Amiga display, again scaled to entire image mode.
It sounds like a lot, but in practice, it's simple, requires little or no
thought from you, and works very, very well.
If, in the future, you were to get a high-color display board, there are
many that Imagemaster supports, and our support will be improving
substantially in the future.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
O.K. Sounds great.
What I am trying to do is replace MAC II's that are doing this with
PhotoShop. Currently we use a Kodak Negative scanner and read the images
and modify them to be printed later. We currently have 6 of these
stations in our local branch but they run in upwards of $30,000 and I
figure we can do the same thing with the Amiga.
Maybe my question would be better asked like this: If you had $6,000 to
make the ultimate 24 bit graphics workstation, what would you get?
.>Scott:
<AutoPilot:
Meaning, ultimate as in Amiga? Easy:
Hardware:
———
An Amiga 4000, with 18mb of ram (CBM); an extra (laaaarge) IDE hard drive
(the 4000 comes with a 120mb, which is minimal for your needs). The 4000
has gfx which are more than good enough to deal with any 24-bit image
imaginable, when driven by Imagemaster. Your choice of scanner hardware –
check with ASDG for availability of drivers for your input device, first,
though, for AdPro2.
Software:
———
Imagemaster for image manipulation (from Black Belt Systems); AdPro2 for
driving high quality scanner devices and talking to Mac file formats (from
ASDG); GigaMem virtual memory software for those whopping big images (from
Innovatronics); PageStream desktop publishing software for proofs and etc.
(from SoftLogic).
Later:
——
Add one (or more) 64 mb memory cards from Progressive Peripherals…
unless something bigger and better becomes available. As I'm sure you
know, there's no such thing as too much memory, and as you may or may not
know, you can stuff an Amiga to 2 gigs if you can find the hardware – the
bus isn't the limitation, it's the memory technology.
That oughta do you, but good. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Scott, get an Amiga 4000 with either a large IDE drive, at least 240mb if
not larger (get a SCSI II interface and drive if they're out by the time
you start working on this), the VIVID-24 display board from DMI or anything
similar resolution-wise for a preview of your output – this is purely
optional, and get ImageFX from GVP for handling all the image processing,
prepress, scanning and file input and output needs for this. For a scanner,
get the Epson ES300c. ImageFX will control and drive all of this and has
everything in one neat package for you.
Kermit Woodall Nova Design, Inc.
Kermit-
I've got exactly the same problem as Scott at work. We have an Electronic
Imaging Lab which is a network of MACII's and PC's. I have been trying to
get Amigas incorporated in the lab for the last year. Commodore
representatives paid us a visit and have provided us with an A3000 for
testing purposes but I have yet to find software for the Amiga that does
the day-to-day, hour-after-hour image processing we do as slickly as
PhotoShop. ImageMaster doesn't even import the JPEG images we are using on
the network. The software
we need will do simple spotting, cropping, color correction etc. on
photographic images we have scanned using our Nikon or Epson scanners.
Right now MACs and PhotoShop are doing a super job for us and the only
incentive to include Amigas would be if the machines were less expensive
and the software as easy to use.
After saying all that can you tell me what ImageFX does in this line? Is
it's interface useable/intuitive? I sure hope so because with PhotoCD and
digital line photography is following it would be nice if the Amiga found a
second nitch.
If you are interested in seeing the types of photography we are doing and
have access to InterNet you can download images at Photo1 or here on CIS in
the Graphics Gallery where we have a couple of libraries. The CIS images
are GIF the Internet images JPEG. They just reorganized the libraries
there and I haven't visited recently but they are listed as Smithsonian1
and Smithsonian2, I think.
Is ImageFX related to the DeskTop Darkroom I saw mentioned in GVP's most
recent ads?
Just wanted to get my two bits in here and ask a couple of questions I have
had since seeing your posting.
Thanks, Carl
I hate writing on line it makes me seem even dumber than I am! :^) Anyway
in my last message I tried to guide you to our libraries here on CIS and
missed. I just went and checked – we now have five libraries online. Go
Gallery and they are libraries 3-7. I think the more complete internet
address is Photo1@SIVM.edu but again I'm not sure since I don't go there
and it has only been online for a month or so.
Thanks for your patience.
Carl
Mac JPEG images, like most Mac files, have extra data prepended to the
files by the Mac OS. That data needs to be removed – there are various
utilities available on the Amiga to do that job. We may, at some point,
provide automatic stripping of the useless data that the Mac OS adds on,
though; hard to say, there's been very little call for that type of
thing.
FYI.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben, if I send you my code for detecting and skipping the 128 byte header
of MacBinary files, will you quit complaining and add it to all your
loaders? 🙂
Ben-
I appreciate your response but since the Mac way of writing JPEG images
is the default in my industry (photography/printing) any software that is
to be considered of "professional" quality must work with the Mac format –
seamlessly.
I have attempted stripping the "useless" info from the front of the Mac
format without succcess. But really it doesn't make any difference. It was
just an exercise for my own curiousity – I wanted to see how fast your
program would de-compress the images and how they would look.
I am still looking for Amiga programs that will work – ones I can show my
co-workers without embarrassment.
Carl
Just FYI its called a resource fork (the actual file itself is called the
data fork)…. And its pretty standard so there should be an easy way to
make one program that will pull the resource fork off any mac file
(gif/jpeg/word/etc)…. America Online provides such a utility called
AOMAC2PC.EXE boring name but it does the job… There should be a similar
utility for the amiga….
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Carl…I'll get those jpegs from Internet…no problem.
ImageFX is completely unrelated to "Desktop Darkroom", although the ads for
that would make you think it might have similar features.
Our interface is highly intuitive, has built-in AmigaGuide help for most
all features in a context sensitive fashion…we're quite similar to the
Mac's Photoshop in our overall features and approach, with an Amiga motif
for the interface.
GVP can send you more info, but your local dealer probably has ImageFX in
stock now. It's been shipping fast and furiously for some weeks now.
Kermit Woodall Nova Design, Inc.
Kermit,
I think you will be impressed – please let me know one way or another.
The Smithsonian Institution just joined Internet and our server is the
first online. Apple Computer gave us a grant of equipment so that our
images could be available in the JPEG format.
We are also distributing our images electronically via National Digital
software/hardware. We are very pleased with the reproduction of our images
transmitted via JPEG despite it's "looseyness".
I keep preaching to the Amiga developers that there is a fantastic
market out there, right now – not next year, for "Electronic Darkroom"
software. Mayby there is now some hope, I certainly hope so. The Amiga
seems to be the perfect platform but all the software I have been able to
test is aimed at other markets (art/animation/morphing etc.)not mine.
Additionally the software is too slow on screen redraws compared to the
Mac, something that I just can't understand.
Thanks for listening, Carl
This is the third program I've seen with AmigaGuide, how do you read these
files.
–Paul
–Paul
Why didn't you or Lee let me know it ws shipping? I haven't even seen this
gem of a program yet?
Go with the mac.. the 24bit amiga arena is not mature enough for you type
of setting… and you CERTAINLY do not want to use the base amiga (even
with the new AGA chips) to edit 1280×1280 24bit images…. The mac
software is more powerful and the hardware is more supported. Trying to
use an amiga to do this will only give you more headaches and less
support…. For the same amount of money….
I.E. you have a developer here saying that you can edit said pictures on
the amiga in "full image" mode at 640×400 and not lose "much" of the
picture… Last time i checked 640×400 will give you 1/4 of a 1280×1280
image.. As such their "full image mode" strips out 75% of the pixels in
your image in an attempt to display the "full image" in "full image"
mode…. That is *NOT* going to be acceptable for your needs. If you find
and add a display card to an amiga that supports 1280×1280 you'll be locked
into the 1 or 2 software programs that support the card.. whereas on the
mac everything works on the display including the operating system.
I like the amiga very much but there are some things best left to macs (at
least for now).
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Joe, of course I'm thoroughly biased, but we think ImageFX brings the power
of Mac/PC image editing programs to the Amiga and then some. We've been
told by unbiased observers that much of our software is faster and easier
to use than the other platforms. Further, to edit a 1280×1280 image in our
system does not require a display card capable of 1280×1280
resolution…ImageFX, like similar software, scales the image preview to
fit even a stock Amiga screen and maintains the full 24-bit buffer.
ImageFX's requirements are 1/2mb chip ram and 3mb fast ram. We actually
have had users use our virtual memory and run in only 1mb of ram total, but
that's not our recommended configuration since we find that some operations
needed more than 1mb of ram total.
Don't write the Amiga platform off…try not only our software, but all the
latest software and see if you really think the Amiga can't do this.
Kermit Woodall Nova Design, Inc.
I'll never write the amiga off… And I never said it couldn't handle it..
The point is that this guy was obviously doing professional work and you
were trying to steer him towards a kludge kinda program for his needs..
He was obvious in stating that he needed to work on the WHOLE 1280×1280
image at one time and you were confusing him with terms like "full image
mode" and saying he could do what he wanted with the amiga's built in
video…
I know the amiga is a great machine but there are some things its just NOT
the best for…. Some guy at home that wants to play with big pictures…
ok fine your program is great…. Proffesionals that can't afford a $1-$2k
video card, then your program is great… But you have to recognize that
many business users HAVE to have the hardware/software regardless of
cost… And I think that the only reason your software seems faster is
because 99% of the time its working on smaller images. Photoshop on the
mac is slow by a lot of standards, but you won't find any other program
that has all its features. We edit 50meg files daily on a 33mhz 040 based
Quadra 950…. Expensive, but to try and do that on an amiga would be
crazy…. You'ld waste expensive man hours setting it up, translating
output etc etc etc…
Overall the amiga is my favorite computer… But I had to jump in there and
save this guy from an expensive mistake because the two of you kind of had
a communications break-down or something….
Now, forgetting about that, does your software support the AGA chips??
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Joe, it was me you were responding to, not Kermit.
I was not "confusing him" with terms like "full image mode". I was telling
him the exact truth, and describing it concisely. I'll describe it in any
greater amount of detail if called upon to do so either by direct
questions or if I feel that the situation seems to warrant it.
You, on the other hand, have a "nailed-to-the-wall" position on what you
think you "must" have to get a particular job done; and in _fact_, you are
wrong when you apply that to others (and probably for yourself as well,
from what I see you saying here). It is fine that you accept this position
for yourself, and spend the extra money required to satisfy your arbitrary
and unsupportable position, but to say that your view of how things must
be is the only accurate view is as bad as any other arbitrary viewpoint.
It is a FACT than many, perhaps most, "professional" applications can use
software such as Imagemaster to get various jobs done. Further, it is a
FACT that many jobs canNOT be done using PhotoShop, yet CAN be doene using
Imagemaster. Those two facts, standing by themselves, punch more holes in
your PhotoShop arguments than are needed to justify my position.
Imagemaster allows you to work on the whole 1280×1280 image at one time.
And, Imagemaster also allows you to SEE the entire image thru a
subsampling method, or part of it pixel for pixel by scrolling. This in
fact is enough to do any type of operation you need to do; it may require
some checking to make sure you've not done anything untoward to parts of
the image that are not visible (due to the subsampling, if you're using
that) but it's a certainly doable.
It is also a fact that an image processed by Imagemaster and saved using a
nondestructive method will be of much higher quality than an image
processed by anything you care to name and saved using JPEG. It totally
amazes me that you can stand over on one side and hop up and down about
accuracy and precision and then you trample your images with one of the
<continued>
most destructive save methods known to computing – JPEG.
Do I know anything about this? Nah… – I just wrote the JPEG
implementation for our company, and designed the custom nondestructive
24-bit savers, that's all. :^)
Your implications that the Amiga is not suitable for image manipulation
work are unsupportable and just plain wrong. You say that "you won't find
any other program" that has PhotoShop's features; well, in fact, Photoshop
doesn't have anywhere near the number of features that Imagemaster has. As
many of our users will happily attest to. I can tell you I don't lose any
sleep worrying if it ever will catch up, either.
Imagemaster appears faster than PhotoShop for only one reason – and that
is simply that it IS faster. Not that we ever tried to make it faster,
it's just the VMEM techniques used by PhotoShop hamstring it badly for
speed. Imagemaster slows down a lot if you choke it with VMEM also (though
not as much as PhotoShop). You point about converting file types is moot;
that's a trival process that can be completely automated for bunches of
files, should the need arise, you're making far too much out of it.
Editing 50 meg files with Imagemaster is easy and reasonable to do,
assuming only that you either have the memory or the HD space to do it.
Using the HD is of course an amatuer way to do it, acceptable, but
slower.
And finally, yes, Imagemaster supports the AGA chipset directly. It was
the first Amiga program released with direct AGA editing and operations,
(as compared to just viewing images in AGA) in fact. You can work and edit
using 1280 wide screens, in either the 256 color or the 18 bit modes, no
problem. Also 8-bit B&W, if that's your bag.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
JF>The point is that this guy was obviously doing professional JF>work and
you were trying to steer him towards a kludge kinda JF>program for his
needs..
Joe…here's Scott's original post…he didn't say what he's doing his work
for, but he does say he wants to do it on the Amiga. Not the Mac or PC.
> I am looking for information on how to view and edit a 24 >bit
1280×1280 picture on the Amiga. What will I need to do >this and is anyone
doing this now? – I need to be able to see >and edit the ENTIRE picture on
the screen. It looks like the >new Visiona board might be able to do this?
Scott later qualifies this asking about the best hardware/software
platform…again, he still seems to be asking about the available Amiga
hardware and software.
We created our program for exactly the type of work he asked about. We
looked carefully at highend image processing and editing systems on both
the MAC and PC and created a package for the Amiga that addressed these
same needs.
JF>He was obvious in stating that he needed to work on the WHOLE
JF>1280×1280 image at one time and you were confusing him with JF>terms
like "full image mode" and saying he could do what he JF>wanted with the
amiga's built in video…
You CAN work on a 1280×1280 image, and on the whole image, at one time in
our software. You can use the Amiga's display to preview it as you work on
it as well.
JF>I think that the only reason your software seems faster is JF>because
99% of the time its working on smaller images. JF>Photoshop on the mac is
slow by a lot of standards, but you JF>won't find any other program that
has all its features.
Nope. Our software is faster in many respects, when working on the exact
same images under the same (relative) conditions, is due to several
factors. One – the Amiga's processor isn't maintaining the video, audio, or
other features and has more cpu cycles available for the program, Two –
where appropriate we take advantage of things like the blitter to speed up
some operations, Three – we simply have better "virtual memory" for
managing and editing images from the disk.