#Dongles
36 messages in this thread
I just saw a seemingly innocent thread about Liquid Speed turn into a
"Dongle Free-For-All". Not that I am being critical of your
comments, but lets get this out where it belongs, ON ITS OWN THREAD.
Here are my thoughts …
1) Those of us who also work in the UNIX world (Greg P, I'm looking
for you to help me on this one!<G>) live in a world of "Host ID's,
ELM License Managers, and Authorization Codes". For those who are
not versed, all UNIX boxes have a unique HOST ID number that is
assigned to that machine "at birth". This host ID makes each machine
unique, and therefore copy protected. When we install AutoCAD on a
UNIX box, we call AutoDesk with the host I.D. number and they give us
an Auth Code to "Unlock" the software. Now, this software can still
be installed on another machine, but the user will have to call
AutoDesk for an Auth Code for that machine. If your brave enough,
you could pirate the software by saying that "We moved it to a new
machine", but you would be taking a serious risk. ELM codes work the
same for network copies, with the code being a function of the
Machine Name and the IP Address. This brings up a simple question,
WHY CAN'T SOMEONE COME UP WITH THIS SIMPLE OF A SOLUTION FOR THE
INTEL PLATFORM?
2) Understanding that there are certain hardware limitations posed by
the sheer number of Intel boxes shipped, Why can't we come up with a
MASTER DONGLE solution? (3rd party guys, are you listening? There
is going to be a major HINT in here for you!). I would gladly pay
$20.00 to some "master licensing" outfit for a dongle that gave my
machine the functional equivalent of a host ID. Then, 3DS3, LS,
TOPAS and all the others could use this as their restriction.
3) AutoDesk 3rd party developers, 3DS3 already ships with a hardware
lock so why not take advantage of it? I can understand that AutoDesk
would be cautious of giving out to much info about how there hardware
lock works, but SURELY there is some part of the "code" that
developers such as Vibrant could use?!?!
Let me summarize, I AM IN FAVOR OF HARDWARE LOCKS! But the current
system is headed for a major meltdown. We have a great collection of
minds here, let's use them to develop ideas and answers.
OK Guys, BEAT ME UP!!!!
In regards to your UNIX dongleless solution, Schrieber Instruments has
a beautiful version of that for their PC stuff, where you call and
get an authorization code that turns a demo into a fully functional,
non pirateable (by most) version!
I hate dongles, but understand the need for software copy protection.
Why doesn't anyone else use the Schreiber method?!?!?!?!?
John,
>> Why doesn't anyone else use the Schreiber method?
I agree! However, I have heard of a few problems with the Schreiber method (ie
Change you hard disk or other major component, and the Auth Code is now
invalid).
Don't get me wrong Schreiber folks, you are getting points in my book for at
least being creative about the solution!!! Let's here it, what kind of
problems are REAL with your software authorization method.
Chuck
Well, execpt that Schriebner's solution involves a hidden file in the root of
drive C: — and thus a hardware failure, despite backups, could bring you down
until you can convince Scriebner of your veracity.
Dave
I'd rather have a pissing/begging match on the phone with a software company
where I'm the custormer, than six feet of dongles dangling <g>.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
>> six feet of dongles dangling <<
Hey, I think you got the start of a song lyric here, John–kinda Seasonal,
too–"On the worst day of Christmas, my true loathe sent to me…"
If I wasn't so wired from these darn voodoo boxes (PC's), I'd add a line to the
song…
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
I'm the guilty one. I started this tangent on the Dongle for Liquid
Speed but it was appropriate because Vibrant made one of my
predictions come true, sorry to say. The dongle will infect trivial
software like drivers and utilities some day. ( I interpret a
fractional speed increase in one part of 3DS a trivial utility). It
is a window into what we are instore for, should this dongle disease
continue.
I agree with 99% of what you said but I don't believe you really meant
you are in favor of dongles. That statement is somewhat of a
contradiction based on your pro UNIX system approach to the security
problem. It actually sounds a lot like my SPA proposal. Currently
the SPA is a passive organization, with my proposal they could take
an active CONSTRUCTIVE role in software security resolution.
Don,
>>I'm the guilty one.
Wasn't expecting anyone to take credit! <G>
>>The dongle will infect trivial software like drivers and utilities some day.
Exactly, and it scares the heck out of me! But, you can't blame the
software folks, they are faced with an endless assault on the
software piracy front. Remember, the main threat of software piracy
is NOT the end user, but the foreign and Domestic "Chop Shops" that
duplicate the Disks, Manuals, etc. and distribute the products for
resale.
Now, here's a point I would like to address to the developers on the
forum and the Yost group, is my idea of other vendors "Piggy-Backing"
onto the R3 Dongle that out of whack?
>> but I don't believe you really meant you are in favor of dongles
Your right, I'm in favor of Software Copy Protection. (See what
happens when you type with a sick 2-year-old on your lap!)
>>It actually sounds a lot like my SPA proposal.
I'M INTERESTED!! What can you tell us about this "On the Airwaves"?
Chuck,
>>piggy-backing onto the 3DS dongle: out of wack?…
This won't work for a product like Liquid Speed. (The 3DS software is not
keyed to the dongle – any 3DS executable will work with any dongle.) Vibrant's
only customers for LS are all us nasty 3DS users, who will, by definition, all
have the 3DS dongle, and would surely promiscuously copy the silly thing.
The whole Liquid Speed thing makes me MAD. A stupid dongle for a $300
"utility"??? Until Vibrant did this, I was behind them. I think they would
have made more money by having the ADESK deal build "it" into 3DS for an
additional $100 or so in upgrade fee. Then ALL serious 3DS sites would "buy"
it (who wouldn't upgrade to R3?). Vibrant would make a lot more money, 3DS
customers would not be alienated, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
(this week, anyway)
The Schreiber concept breaks down if your computer signature changes at
midnight Saturday: you can't get a new code to finish your job until Monday
morning. If they ever go out of business, kiss it goodbye.
I agree with Don, and will only buy a dongled program if I absolutely can't
live without it and there is no significant competitor. I also refuse to buy
any copy-protected software that messes with my hard disk. (I have a $500
music printing program that won't work anymore and the company won't help.)
Too bad honesty is so out of style…
JKJ
PS. re cheap switchboxes: our years of extensive experience with switching many
dozens of HP printers indicates NO problems. An insider at HP indicated their
stance was taken because of some early "shorting" rotary switches, as opposed
to the "non-shorting" type found in today's boxes. FWIW
All right JKJ, you tell him! Take that, Chuck! <bg>
John,
>>This won't work for a product like Liquid Speed
OK, i was out of whack because of the reasons you stated, but my question is
WHY CAN'T IT BE MADE TO WORK! We are going into "Dongle Shock" here.
If I went to a mechanical client and sold him AutoSurf R2 (Dongled) for
surfacing, the new AutoCAD Designer (rumored to be Dongled) for solids
modeling, AutoMill (Dongled) to cut his parts, 3D-Studio (Dongled) to produce
the marketing tapes to sell the products, and he used Liquid Speed (Dongled)
and Soft Engine 3.0 (Dongled) ………… You can see where this is
headed!!!! The SAD part is that we will be faced with this for some solutions,
and they are ALL AUTODESK FAMILY PRODUCTS!!!
>>The whole Liquid Speed thing makes me MAD.
See Above!!!!!! <G>
>>The Schreiber concept breaks down if your computer signature changes at
midnight Saturday: you can't get a new code to finish your job until Monday
morning.
I see the problem and it concerns me too. But I still wish to compliment
Schreiber on a solution that was "At least something other than another
dongle"!
>>I agree with Don, and will only buy a dongled program if I absolutely can't
live without it and there is no significant competitor
Isn't free enterprise GREAT!
>> re cheap switchboxes: our years of extensive experience with switching many
dozens of HP printers indicates NO problems.
OK, I can live with that (I have a non-shorting switch too!). I was just
giving Greg a hard time (with this mental picture of a faithful CIS reader
standing at his dealer's service counter after digging out that old switchbox
saying "But a guy on Compuserve …..!!! <G>)
Chuck
PS. Take that Greg <G>!
>>>>It actually sounds a lot like my SPA proposal.
I'M INTERESTED!! What can you tell us about this "On the Airwaves"?
I already did on the liquid speed thread but here's a copy for the dongle
record.
{ I think software manufactures should take a stricter stand on the
duplication of their software for blackmarket sales and the courts should levy
swift and severe punishment for violators whether or not they are "college
hackers, meaning 'no' harm" or just plain crooks. SPA should launch a public
awareness TV campaign to educate the public that making a copy of software for
a friend is a felony.
I would like to see: (Maybe you'd care to comment)
SPA should develop a serial number standard and all software automatically
imbeds the registered owner's name adress and phone number on a screen as a
warning that the only person lawfully allowed to use this software is eg.
"abcd" The software must have the proper name because it would self destruct
if the owner didn't obtain a special code to make the software permanent, That
code would be obtained within 30 days or so of installation from SPA and would
be tied to the name spelling of the owner. Once the code is imbedded the owner
would need his SSN# to reinstall. However, his name would appear throughout
the software. Only a moron would want his name and SSN# to appear on
bootlegged copies. Yes, software could be bootlegged for 30 days or whatever
but then it would need to be reinstalled. New codes would be required to
reinstall from any corruption of the install requiring backups. Even if the
software was bootlegged for 30 days it would be like a hook in advertising
sucking potential customers to own their own. Let's get rid of these darn
dongles and institute a more effective system. I for one, have decided not to
purchase any more software with them. }
Regarding the Schreiber method: I don't know specifically how it works but if
any software makes an attempt to modify the structure of my harddrive or will
self destruct because I do a disk defrag I will vote it down as well.
It boils down to this, Chuck, I don't feel I should be punished because someone
else is out breaking the law on bootlegging.
Don,
VERY good points! (I had a disk crash and must have lost that part of the
thread)
>>It boils down to this, Chuck, I don't feel I should be punished because
someone else is out breaking the law on bootlegging.
Understood, but if you take the dealer and manufacturer's position, "I Don't
feel that I should have to LOSE MONEY because someone else is out breaking the
law on bootlegging".
Chuck
PS. Just a thought on the whole Piracy issue, "What happened to Integrity
anyway?"
>>PS. Just a thought on the whole Piracy issue, "What happened to Integrity
anyway?"
99.9% of the people left it at Disney World's Fantasyland when they came
home.<g>
>>99.9% of the people left it at Disney World's Fantasyland when they came
home
I never thought of that, thanks Don.
I hear you! The host ID for PC's is a great idea. Someone needs to
come out with a system for doing that before we all go crazy.
Schreiber just writes to a sector on the hard disk, which works very
well also.
Your 'Master Dongle' idea could work for users, but we need someone
to organize it and give all the software vendors their 'number' or
something. Each one would have to have multiple protocols, or
someone buying the thing would have access to all the software it was
supposed to protect!
There's go to be an answer in here somewhere…
Greg,
Whew, I was counting on you to be here <g>!
But, I do want to take you to task on one issue. In the earlier liquid speed
thread I noticed that you suggested using a "Cheap" switchbox for all the
multiple dongles, but I didn't notice where you told that person "Please shut
your machine off before switching to another device!"
From a hardware vendor that has seen parallel IO cards short out and drip into
the bottom of the case from a cheap switch box, I would view your suggestion
with caution. (I'm not alone either, HP will not warrant ANY printer or
plotter that has been connected via a MECHANICAL switchbox.) Electronic switch
boxes are OK, but so much for cheap!
OK, abuse inflicted,
Chuck
Hey Greg, I think it would be much handier if you could just put a safety
backup copy of the entire message header in your signature… 🙂
I think he missed his social security number there too… <g> (I will hear
because of this one…)
I can also add shoe size and multiply that by my IQ! But that would give me a
negative number…
>>I can also add shoe size and multiply that by my IQ! But that would give me
a negative number…
Do you always end up going backwards when you try to walk forwards because your
feet point behind you? (negative shoe size?)
Don:
Oh, is that why I always get a negative number when I multiply that out?
Thanks for the info! Maybe that's why I take two steps back for every step
forward, also!
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] 14-Dec-93 at 10:01a PST
And his clock appears to be "off", too.
John:
Actually, the clock is exact, it is the time I wrote the response off-line,
not some bogus time hours later that CIS decided to admit receiving it!
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] 13-Dec-93 at 8:22p PST
John:
If it was automatic in the software like this is, I probably would! <g> But
look at it this way – you have single-handedly succeeded in cutting down on
all the quoting on this forum by at least 75% – be happy with that! <bg>
On the other discussion we had the other day (I won't go quoting it, I'm sure
you remember), Cyberware is sending me a new version of the mesh – I'll let
you know if it works!
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] 13-Dec-93 at 2:13p PST
>>the message header in your signature…
Yikes, I blinked and lost track of this thread and missed the essence of this
message. Would you please repost and quote the entire message thread?
JKJ (Ging,Ding,& running like crazy)
James Murphy was talking about the extra AutoCAD dongles he had for sale, $25
each.
Cute John, but we were talking about you impotence problem first weren't we?
Yes, we were discussing the importance of dongles… Say, did you hear about
that new Christian biker's mag called Holy Davidson?
SZat' Du wun wid Father Jay Lenno on Da Cuver?
>>Father Jay Lenno
I hear Michael Jackson is considering the priesthood.
David,
>> I hear Michael Jackson is considering the priesthood. <<
Geezzz David don't Ya' think that would be kind of a low blow. <g>
Murph'
KaPWEENG!!! Good shot! <GG>
Almost 90% of all PC's are networked. All Network cards have a unique
serial number (Network ID Number). Just use this number. The problem
is that you can't change your network card… And for those without
network? Send them a dongle… <g>
Because PCs are everywhere, and they'd each have a unique serial number, and
sooner than later someone says "but I want to run on my machine at home while
I'm not at the office, and my license says I can do that" or more seriously
"what do I do when my machine dies at 4:59 Friday and I can't get a new
validation code for my second machine until Monday."