#Price Cuts?
62 messages in this thread
Has anyone heard anything about the rumored price cuts Commodore was
'supposed' to announce?
There were price cuts of a variety of products — effective 6 Feb.
Listed below are the products and the decreases (by percentage) from
suggested retail price.
A2000 -16%
A2000HD -26%
A2500/30 -19%
A3000/16/50 -10%
A3000/25/50 -12%
A3000/25/100-6%
A2630 -10%
A2058 -54%
A1011 -15%
A2088D -29%
A2286 -50% (<— '286 bridgeboard finally priced "in the ballpark")
A2300 -44%
A2091 -50%
1680 Modem -41%
CBM has also changed their distribution scheme for Amigas. "Larger"
dealers will continue to order directly from CBM regional sales offices (I
don't know what the qualification for "larger" is — just know my dealer
qualifies). All others will order from regional distributors. I don't
have a list of those distributors but I believe in the SoCal area it is
Creative Computers and in the Rocky Mountain region it's The Connecting
Point.
CBM has also modified their educational sales plan making it more
attractive to both dealers (more money for them) and institutional sales
(less cost for them).
One of the problems with the new educational scheme is that the dealer
fills from stock rather than waiting for CBM to ship the product. How is
that bad? Now several states, NY included, consider this a local purchase
and get their grubby sales-tax paws on it. That is 8.25% in NYC.
In California, even under the old plan, you had to pay sales tax.
Yeah, there were three states, including CA, that always had to pay
tax. Pennsylvania was of course one too. I think maybe Indiana was the
other. Oh well, now we all pay. (8.25%! Arghh)
— Ethan
No, the sales tax is only 4% in Mich. hehehe. Tim
It all depends on state law. Many states require you pay sales tax on
mail ordered out of state purchases (which is essentially what the
educational program is/was).
Only thing is that when the program first came out only 3 states
required you to pay taxes, so it can't be that many states.
I know that Illinois has a use tax on purchases made out of state. I think
you'd even have to pay it on educational purchases. Of course it is hard
for them to catch people who fail to pay it.
Until recently…having to pay sales tax on mail order purchases
was illegal unless the product was bought from a mail order house that was
in the same state where you resided….or the mail order house had a retail
outlet in the same state where you reside.
The feds recently (within the last year or so) changed the rules
(or attempted to change them…I believe the legislation passed) so that
the states are now permitted to enact regulations (but not required
to…although ever heard of a government agency that didn't take advantage
of a rule like this) where local taxes may be collected on out of state
purchases if the delivery of the product is made in-state.
Don, Ohio passed a tax act late last year that imposes taxes on ALL mail
order purchases from out of state companies. I have no idea how it is
supposed to be enforced/collected.
Mike
Don,
The back of our Illinois tax instructions states that this use tax
has been in effect since 1955. It states "Illinois law requires that when
you buy something from another state to use in Illinois, you pay tax at the
Illinois rate. If you pay less than the Illinois rate to another state,
you must pay Illinois the difference."
It also does not specify that delivery had to be taken in Illinois.
As a matter of fact, one of the purchases they say is subject to this tax
is direct sales to out-of-state travellers.
— Mike Roth
I think this is true of Wisconsin, too… it's been law for quite a while
that you're supposed to pay tax on purchases made mail-order. I think our
accountant pointed out we're supposed to pay tax on the development
machines we purchase from CBM, for example.
Mike,
It may have been on the books…but it was unenforceable…and more
than likely put the burden of paying the tax on the user…not the sales
company.
In other words, if the receiver of goods dumb enough to voluntairly
send in the tax to the state.
There was no way Illinios could force a company in any other state
to collect sales taxes for Illinois, nor could they bar the company from
doing business in Illinois if they failed to collect the tax. That would
have been an attempt to regulate interstate commerce…something left to
the federal government only.
Things that required registration with the state were an
exception…the most noteable of course…were cars. They could refuse to
register the car without payment of the tax. However, they were required
to credit you with any sales tax paid in another state…and there were
limits. For example, Pennsylvania couldn't charge sales tax on
out-of-state purchases of autos if the purchase was made more than 6 months
prior to the registration and the vehicle had been registered in another
state.
Don
They aren't supposed to charge tax on the educational orders! That's why we
wait the 2 to 5 business days for the product from C=, rather than filling
from stock, to avoid any such unpleasentries.
I have had this confirmed by both Paul Van Reed and Fred Holland at
Commodore that with the new restructuring of the program sales are no
longer through CBM but through the dealer. The dealer is to receive direct
payment and to sell from stock. Unless they are both wrong, which I
consider unlikely, it has changed.
Well then they should have included that with the new
individual/institutional prices they sent us!
BEN Leigh's Computer's
Ben,
You also get credit toward your account now when you sell an educational
deal. And your margin goes up a bit, I believe.
Karl
We always got credit towards our account for an educational purchase, so
that is nothing new.
BEN Leigh's Computer's
Last I knew you had to send your money to CBM and wait 2 to 3 weeks before
you received you machine from CBM.
– via Whap!
Now the dealer can sell to you out of stock/
— Ethan
Steve,
Thanks for that list of percentages. Was the A590 included in that and left
off the list or is it unchanged?
I reproduced everything that was on the list that I have.
That bit about the bridge just warms my heart. That one item makes the
AMiga FINALLY an attractive business machine. Now we can compete at least
at the generic clone level!
I really think that before we can say that, CBM is going to have to come
out with a 386 based BB. Everyone I know who owns a PC wont even look at
an AT or 286 based machine now. If they can come up with a 386 BB and
price it at the level of the old BB, keep the current AT BB at the new
level or a tad lower even, this might REALLY attract the clone people, as
we could say AT BB for price/preformance or 386 BB for preformance/price.
This is better – and it's something that can serve a lot of people. At
$1200, it was absurd, and an obvious ploy by CBM to *prevent* people from
buying it.
This is true, and I agree that the price IS much better then before. Now
if they would just do the 386!
Tim: I'm not sure I understand why anyone would want/need a 386BB running
on an Amiga that has a 68030 running at 25 to 50 Mhz. Seems like that's
major overkill, since the Amiga itself multitasks so much better than the
intel 386.
To me, it would not be worth ANY additional cost to have a 386 BB instead
of a 286 BB.
(ofcourse, that's coming from someone who doesn't have ANY bridgeboard!)
Michael
Well, there is one GOOD reason S O F T W A R E!
The amout of business software availble for the PC world is just too
impressive to ingore. Alot of people would like to be able to run that
software on their Amiga's and they would like to run it at 25-33 mhz. It's
not that this would be better then the Amiga running at 25-50 mhz but
rather it would brng ALOT of people into the Amiga world that WANT to join,
but can't due to the lack of business software. I personaly know 4 people
all of whome would LOVE an A3000, but who NEED 386 PC preformace out of
their PC software. They use this software/system at work, and MUST have it
at home as well. They LOVe what the amiga can do, but realilty is
something that gets in their way. If said 386 BB was available, and it
came with VGA (S-VGA would be even better) they would get a 3000 in a sec.
The 3000's lack of AT slots is another problem, it limits your ability to
add cards to the BB side. These problems will have to be overcome before
these people would be willing to invest in an Amiga.
Tim
These friends who would get an Amiga with 386 BB in a second. Would they
still get it if they paid more for the 386BB than they would for a 386
clone? If so, unless they have some strong desire to save space, they are
silly, because they could get both AmigaDOS and MS-DOS separately for less
than the combined price.
Besides, I assume that if they really need the 386 this much they
already own one, or have had their company get them one. If this is so, and
they won't buy the Amiga as a second computer, then why would the Amiga
suddenly become worth the price if it had a BB attached to it? It just
doesn't make any sense.
— Ethan S
No, they would not get it if the price was more then the clone. And yes
they are now in the process of getting the clone, at least one of them is
the other has decided to go to gencon this year, and hold off on getting
the PC till next…They are not made of $, and I never said that they 386
BB should cost an arm and a leg?! And the person who IS getting the clone
IS getting an A500 also. But they would MUCH prefer an A3000 WITH a 386BB
for one simply reason. Multi-platform ability on 1 PC. I myself have an
A3000 with AT-BB and the A-Max II I will be adding Unix. I also am looking
into the ST medusa and I have the PD A64. I for one think it is VERY nice
to have ALL of these systems running out of one Box. Space may not be a
problem for you but it is for me. My Townhouse can hold NO MORE, it is
1500 square feet and all of that is full with other things, not computer
releated. My A3000 is in my finished basement, along with a compleat
family room set-up includeding BIG TV/Stero 100 gal saltwater tank and a
few other items, both bed rooms have no room for a computer desk, nor does
the living room, kitchen, dinning room or laundry room. I simply dont have
the room for yet another 4 computers. So it's kinda nice having them all
in one box. I also disagree about it being just as cheap to get several
computers as it is to get 1. with just one, I don't need 2 monitors, 2
hard drives, 2 printers, (I do need 2 modems) 2 computer desks, and 60
different cards to go into all these computers. When you add up the total
cost off the entire computer and everything you are likly to add to it,
it's cheaper to get it all in one box if possible. Say what you will flame
away, but I happen to like the idea of walking into *ANY* software store
and knowing that they will have SOMTHING that will run on my system. With
the ATBB and Amax etc. This is NOT a problem. In my area Amiga software
is not all that easy to come by, so running the other plattforms makes it
nice. If there is someting I really like on the PC (WP 5.1 for example)
My thoughts were that the 386BB would never come in at a good
enough price though. The AT BB with 1MB and NO VGA is list of $800. What
will the 386 be? I guess it is a lot of guesswork, and I do admit that
there are uses from an integrated system, I just don't know whether it'll
be worthwhile.
And your friend who is buying an A500 and 386: why isn't he getting
an A3000 and 386? Probably (my guess) the cost. But it certainly wouldn't
be cheaper with a BB. And he is already accepting having to make space for
2 computers.
— Ethan
Space can be a MAJOR consideration at a college like mine. To put a
computer on a cart, for example, to send to classrooms can be a real pain
if there is only so much room in the secure AV room! Abd And I should
think corporations don't want to waste space either–they often rent it.
In any case, they pay for it.
I know! I live in a College dorm room and space here isn't exactly
abundant. I've given up having any dekssk space in order ot make room for
muy y toys!
— Ethan extit pos
Yep cost and all he really wants to do at this time, is play games on the
Amiga side….a waste prehaps, but thats the way he decided to go. I am
trying to talk him into at least a 2000. He wants to get into viedo later
and the 500 is not going to cut it for that.
Tim
What does he run on the PC side that he needs a 386 for anyway?
Just curious.
— Ethan
My guess also is that the 386BB will come in around $1499 or so. I think
that IS too much, but im willing to pay it due to my lack of space. There
is just no way that I can get another desk & computer, just no room.
However, if it turns out to be a pile, ie: no Vga, no REAL built-in HD
support/serial and no Vga etc. or they ask 2K or more for it. I will just
stick with my At BB as long as possible. Im not going to pay 2K for one
thats just plain silly.
Tim
I just don't think it is worth it for Commodore to develop a
bridgeboard that is a 386, complete with VGA and good support for all
hardware/software including MS-Windows and OS/2 AND for them to charge a
reasonable price. They are better off developing the equivalent standalone
PC, IMHO. As a business decision on CBMs part, mind you.
Don't forget, computers can be stacked on top of each other or can
be placed on their side next to the table. You could easily get two PCs,
put one on top of the other and use a switchbox to switch between the two
outputs using one monitor.
— Ethan
I heartily agree, Tim — it really does make sense to have one computer
run many operating systems. There are a few reasons a person might need
separate systems, but it's such a luxury to be able to use all the
peripherals on ALL the systems. 🙂
=Tom=
ANOTHER great thing about the Amiga (in a long list): ** It Is A
MultiComputer Computer! ** The Amiga can be a PC, MAC, Unix, 64, ST (and
one day, a NeXT), etc… But ONLY because it's AMIGA! (most are emulaters
not BB's)
The BB is for people who see the features in the Amiga, but know that some
essential business/home software is not available for it, ie: SpreadShts,
DataBases, Accounting, etc… (believe me, I have tried a lot of these and
they just don't compare to their PC counterparts as far as business
software is concerned.) We don't want the Amiga to be another clone! The
BB lets us use the Amiga while also using the same software (ie: computer)
that probably led us to buy/use the other machine in the first place. I
believe people buy the computer for the software, not what it could do if
someone writes a program for it some day. The xt/at BB's must have
influenced a percent of Amiga sales, it did me, and I know others who
bought because of it. The 3000UNIX system is another influence to increase
AMIGA sales. If AMAX II ever comes out on a card with floppy/hard drive
support, you can count me in on that too. I don't know of any other SINGLE
computer I could do all of this.
Let's face it, if there was some of this software that was fully Amigatized
(NOT PORTED) and had the features required, more Amigas would sell to
business, which would sell more Amigas for home use. (I don't know the
actual figures, but X machines sold to business must mean Y machines sold
for home/personel use). Commodore is already advertising/going after the
home market, let's see some business intrests pursued.
More Amigas = more/better software for the Amiga. RESULT: No need for a BB
or PC emulation.
PS: I believe the ST reads in standard MS-DOS but that didn't help
sell the ST. The Amiga is already a good purchase in itself,
a better BB (386VGA…) will help sell more Amigas, even if the
BB isn't purchased.
*JohnB* CIS:76256,3436
Ethan,
I use an Amiga 2000HD at work and would pay more for a 386BB. I could use
all my software and the few things from the PC side I need all at the same
computer/time. I don't know anyone with enough space at their desk (table,
etc) for 2 computers + accessories. And think of the price of two monitors
(VGA/Multisync). That would help justify the cost.
*JohnB* CIS:76256,3436
Lo-res VGA to an Amiga Interlace Screen might be nice along with that 386
BB
(Note to those who didn't see the front end – we're wishin' out loud…)
wmc
It seems to me that an AT BB with built-in VGA would be much more
popular, and profitable for CBM, than a 386-BB.
— Ethan
Ethan,
You thinks so? I'm no PC lover/guru, but I have to somewhat keep up since
I have to spec/use them as tools from time to time. My impression is that
the 80286 in its many forms is inteded to die by Intel-IBM in favor of the
386SX on the low end to t he 80486 on the high end which puts the 80386
approaching mid-life. The other angle is that MS is really out there
pushing WIndows/multi-media. To accomplish this fully they need the 80386
for the virtual memory implementation and the speed. Otherwise their
"multi-tasking" breaks down because either it can't run fast enough or it
can't run. I've read and been told that 80286 just doesn't really cut it
for windows except for very light weight applications.
BTW, I went to the MS WIndows seminar last week when it came to town. Its
hilarious watching all those people "oooo" and "aaaahhh" outload at what
windows was doing when the AMiga has been doing it for years. They
actually think that something like a clipboard is new!!! OTOH, its
pathetic that CBM hasn't got the word out so all those BOZOs know its not
new stuff – maybe a look and feel suit is in order!!!
wmc
Yes, I do think the AT w/VGA is better. Not everyone needs windows and
there are very few apps that need more than a 286. I believe (my opinion)
that most people get a BridgeBoard for WordPerfect, Lotus/Quattro and maybe
something else similar. People who need AutoCAD or Windows, or some other
truly CPU intensive product, get a real PC. Besides, Commodore can't
provide a 386 BB at a price-point that would make it sellable, at least I
don't believe they can.
— Ethan
Ethan,
Personally, I think that you are right that Commodore won't be able to
produce a 386 BB at a reasonable price. However, they will have to if they
want to provide IBM compatibility.
IMHO, the way MS is pushing Windows 3.0 combined with the way Intel is
discounting the 386sx will pretty much obsolete the 286 in any incarnation.
Hardware-wise, the differences between a board that can use a 286 and a
board that can use a 386sx are trivial, so CBM should be able to produce a
386sx BB (even with VGA) at a sellable price-point. Of course, increasing
the speed of the board to 20 MHz might cause a problem with noise, but it
shouldn't be too difficult to fix. A board like this would be far better
than any 286.
BobS
Stupidity is a capitol crime
The thing is, if CBM makes a 386SX bridgeboard that costs much more than
386SX clones, who will buy it? The 386SX is not currently (normally) at a
price which leads it to be an easy buy, whereas a 286 is cheap enough.
And as to 286s being obsoleted, I don't see it personally. Yes, I know,
history has shown me wrong. But I believe that we are at a point with the
286 where the computer is capable of doing basic uses such as word
processing and spreadsheeting at an acceptable speed to most people. I use
286s regularly with WordPerfect and Quattro and I don't usually suffer from
speed problems.
I also don't believe that people will move up to MS-Window and OS/2 like
Microsoft seems to think. A lot of people own Windows, but it is my opinion
that not many use them, and those that do are power-users. Those people
that use MS-DOS because everyone else uses MS-DOS and it has WordPerfect
and Lotus will not be affected by the GUI world and will not need more than
a 286.
I'm not saying that CBM shouldn't make a 386SX BB, but don't forget that
Commodore also has a PC clone line and they probably don't want to compete
with themselves. Outside of the US the clones are supposed to sell quite
well. It does represent appr. 25% of Commodore's revenues.
— Ethan
P.S. But I agree that built-in VGA is a must
Ethan,
Obviously the same type of person who bought the XT BB when it cost
as much or more than an XT clone….and the same type of person who bought
an AT BB when it cost more than an AT clone.
In other words, someone who wants the advanges of the hybrid
Amiga-BB combination and is willing to pay the price and put up with the
minor inconviences.
Don
Ethan,
How would $1500 (street) for an 80386 20 Mhz with cop socket, 1 meg mem,
expandable to 4 megs on the bridge, 3.5" high Density (1.44 meg) floppy
disk/1.2meg 5 1/4" (your choice), VGA, or $1200 street for the same thing
in a 386SX sound to you?
I have no gripe against the 286 except its days are numbered. In fact,
Intel would just as soon quit making/supporting them and use the 386sx as a
direct replacement – at least that was what they admitted to rather quietly
about 2 years ago.
wmc
I don't know about Ethan, but that would sound GREAT to me. Only other
thing I would like to see on it, would be full speed access on the Amiga
HD, and access to the serial port as well. Something that should not be
all that hard for them to do. I would pay $1500 for it for sure!
Tim
Actually, Intel is not at all quiet about their desire to phase out
the 286 in favor of the 386SX – the only thing they're quiet about is their
reason. That reason being that Intel holds no exclusive rights to the
manufacture of the 80286 (and in fact, there are many competing
manufacturers), while Intel and Intel alone is legally able to manufacture
the 386SX and 386 microprocessors. Sure, they're trying to push the 386SX
for purely technological reasons, right? <grin>
…BobR
I think I read that another company was recently allowed to make a 386
chip–the argument in court now is over the name, the chip itself. Intel
claims to own that number!
Bob,
I always wondered why they were so hot to drop the 80286. Thanks for the
info.
wmc
Those prices sound real good, however while you're selling your
complete 386SX system for $1,200, others are selling a 12 MHz 286 system
for $600. The PCs sell because they are SO cheap. They sell a lot of under
$1,000 systems. We will get to the point where the 386SX system will be
$500, but we aren't there yet. The 286 has some life left. As long as it is
several hundred less than a 386SX system, it'll keep going.
— Ethan
Ethan,
Seems like most of the 286s are showing up in laptops and notebooks these
days. I see fewer and fewer ads for 286 desktop systems.
wmc
Oh, when I responded to you I thought you were saying that the potential
of the 286 is nothing because you can get a $1,500 386 for all that.
I realize now that you are referring to a $1,500 BB doing that. It would
be great. I just think it is impossible. Not at that price. I can't see
Commodore doing it.
— Ethan
Ethan,
You are probably right. If they had a 386/386sx card at that price they
might actually sell more machines and CBM would never go for that, would
they…. ;^}
wmc
Tim,
Hear, hear! I know a lot of people who would love to replace their
clone with an Amiga, but can't justify another platform. Most of them would
switch in a minute if a 386 BB were available at a cost less than the 386
clone itself.
Karl
On the educational discount the AT BB is $479, a good price.
Are you sure about that price for the AT BB. My price list shows the
XT_BB at $479 and the AT at $1039. With sugg. retail being $649 & $1599.
Unless your price is a new Ed. Price. But I thought this thread was
talking about sugg. retail price cuts. and there have been no change in
the Edprices.
Although – I could be all washed up 🙂 And missed the beginning of this
thread.
The list price on the AT BB is now $800 and the educational is now $479.
That is reasonable. How Nice.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S