Agnus Removal
26 messages in this thread
If you purchased the MegaChip board from DKB for an Amiga 2000/500
or are contemplating it, then you should be aware that removing the Fat
Agnus chip is no small undertaking. Even if you obtain the extraction tool
you will likely find it difficult to remove Agnus. I experienced bending
the tool up and finally having one leg break off without succeeding in
getting Agnus out. I finally had success by taking a small jeweler's
screwdriver and gently and carefully inserting it into all four corners of
the socket and prying ever so slightly a little bit at a time. Be very
careful not to pry to hard so that you don't damage either the socket or
the chip. By gently prying a little at a time and rotating around to each
corner you will eventually "break" the chip loose enough to reinsert the
extraction tool and finish the process of extracting the chip. You can
probably accomplish this by using one end of the extraction tool, but I
found it to be too "fat" to get the job done. A small, fine-bladed
jeweler's screwdriver was thin enough to get into the corners. You must be
quite careful not to pry to much. Just a little at a time in each corner
will eventually "break" the chip loose. It is in there pretty tight. I
know that this is not the "official" method, but the extraction tool the
dealers are selling with the board will not work if the chip is
well-seated. But it does work if you are patient and careful. It took me
the better part of an hour to work the chip out without causing damage to
either the chip or socket.
Steve,
Actually…the easiest way to add the DKB board if you're having
problems, or think you'll have problems is to just let your dealer's tech
do it. Sure, it'll cost you an extra $20 or so…but be well worth it in
the end. Figure what it'd have cost you if you had broken the socket.
Don
Don,
Well, that's of course true if you cannot do it yourself or don't
wish to risk the effort. The risk of damaging the socket or the Agnus chip
is well worth considering having the dealer do it. But $20 may be an
understatement of the cost. Local dealers charge upwards of $65 an hour,
hour minimum for service. You may also be without your machine for awhile
and have to take the computer to the dealer. Those weak of heart should,
obviously, opt for this alternative. I am not advocating what I did as the
preferred method. It did work and took a bit of patient time to do the
extraction. I think that a different tool should be designed (if one
doesn't already exist) which uses the socket as a support base and pulls
the chip up much like a screw-type cork remover works for wine bottles.
The tweezer tool is simply inadequate for removing chips which for whatever
reason are difficult to pull out. One thing is certain, if you have
problems like I did, and many others apparently have, the DKB board becomes
anything but simple to install. Having to resort to my extraction method
is a "last ditch" effort which shouldn't be necessary if a proper tool were
supplied. I let DKB know.
>>> "I think that a different tool should be designed (if one doesn't
already exist) which uses the socket as a support base and pulls the chip
up much like a screw-type cork remover works for wine bottles." <<<
Steve:
Earlier this year, someone left a message here describing just such a
method. What they did was put a drop of super glue on the old Agnus at dead
center and place a small machine nut on to it. After the super glue
hardened, he took a long machine screw that matched the nut and tightened
it into the nut. Then he was able to simply pull the Agnus out by its new
'handle'. A drop of super glue remover would leave the old Agnus as good
as new.
Michael
….from the north coast
Michael,
Gee, wish I had seen that! What a neat idea.
Steven,
The proper tool does indeed use the socket as a support base and
pulls the chip up much like a screw type cork remover!
If someone sent you a tweezer type tool and told you it was
designed to remove PLCC chips…they were wrong! The proper tool looks
somewhat like a wishbone inside another wishbone. The "inside" wishbone
has hooks on the ends that go under the corners of the chip. The "outside"
wishbone has flat ends that sit on the socket. You squeeze the "bows" of
the wishbone together and that causes the hooks to grab the chip while at
the same time, causes the flat ends to push against the socket thus lifting
the chip out.
Don
Don,
Well, that certainly was NOT what I had been sent. Mine was just a
simple tweezers with the needle ends bent in to fit under the chip socket's
corners. What you describe would make more sense as a chip remover and
would certainly eliminate the risk of damage while assuring a simple
removal. I guess since what I received was "free" with the package, I got
what I paid for!!
Steve,
Ok…what you were sent (the simple tweezers with bent ends) are
meant for removeal of DIP packages..not PLCC packages. But you found that
out, unfortunately the hard way.
They can easily break the chip and/or the socket since they require
you to pull and/or wiggle the chip.
I'm curious…what outfit sent them to you claiming they were
designed for PLCC chips?
Don
Don:
When I orderd a fatter agnus from Grapevine, they sent the single tweezer
type (DIP) chip puller.
Michael
….from the north coast
Don,
I purchased the card from Grape Vine. The extractor was included
with the board. I don't know, however, if that was provided by them or was
part of the MegaChip package from DKB, so I wouldn't want to place blame on
the wrong party. DKB advertises that you can purchase an extractor from
them, but I don't know if this was from DKB or was a separately supplied
item from Grape Vine. Grape Vine advertised that the extractor was free
with the purchase of the MegaChip board.
Steve,
I would be amazed…no make that totally shocked…if that DIP
puller came for DKB as a PLCC puller.
Don
Don,
Well, I don't know where it came from. Grape Vine supplied it free
with the board, but it may be their product and not DKB's. DKB advertises
they will sell a Rockwell chip puller at $15.95. If the puller you
described to me is a Rockwell, then the thing Grape Vine supplied is not
the same item.
Steve,
I don't know what a "Rockwell" is, other than perhaps a brand name.
But I do know what I paid for my PLCC chip puller…$13 from Jameco.
Mine is actually one of the cheaper ones, so I'm sure the one sold
by DKB is the proper tool.
I'd bet you 1000 to 1 that the tool you got was a Grapevine
thingie…that it had nothing to do with DKB. DKB just simply doesn't do
junk…period.
Don
Don,
You may very well be correct. I did not know in advance what to
ask Grape Vine regarding the puller. They advertised the PLCC puller was
provided free with the order, so I assumed they would send the correct
tool. Obviously, that was no a valid assumption. Well, if they give me
any grief over refunding me $35 for the old chip I will have to do battle
with them over supplying a tool which would not work properly.
Steven,
DKB is a really high class operation — I'd be willing to bet big bucks
that the extractor didn't come from them. They want happy customers, not
customers who break their sockets and incur big repair bills!
(Disclaimer: I currently do now own any DKB products, but I have in the
past. I do have own a product partly designed by them and produced by a
3rd party.)
-sja
Steve,
I have owned several DKB products over the years. I had an Insider
board and Kickstart in ROM board I used in my old 1000. I have always been
satisfied both with their products and customer support. That's one of the
compelling reasons for buying the MegaChip board. I had every reason to
believe that the product was first-class. I suspect both you and Don
Curtis are correct in surmising that the puller was not their product, but
supplied separately by Grape Vine. If Grape Vine gives me any grief over
refunding my $35 for the return of the old Agnus, then I will certainly go
around with them over sending the wrong tool.
Don, I rec'd the same type of tool as Steve, just for info. Basically a
chip 'tweezer' puller, but with narrower ends to fit in those small holes
on the Agnus. I just 'wiggled' the chip out (had no problems doing so
-whew!)
Rec'd my chip puller from the M.O. place I ordered the chip from.
–jp–seattle–
John,
Neither the chip nor the socket are designed for "wiggling" and
either can easily break. You were lucky.
Why does it not surprise me that it's a mail order place trying to
pass off a DIP puller as a PLCC puller. That's exactly why I reccomend
staying away from mail order houses no matter how good their price…they
sell junk.
Don
Don,
I know how strongly you feel about mail order, but I have never had
any problems with the ones I have dealt with. This particular incident may
be more the exception than the rule. It's unfortunate that the mail order
houses supplied the wrong tool, but I cannot complain about my experiences,
otherwise. I am reasonably savvy about electronics so I don't have many
fears about doing my own installations or setups, although I know that's a
real problem for the majority of computer users. I have done numerous
installations of hardware from the simple to the complex without a hitch.
This experience with Agnus is the first one I have had that presented a
real "challenge". I am attracted to the mailorder houses because of their
prices. As long as I know that the product I am buying is good, I have
little compunction about saving some money by buying from them. I would,
however, never buy something I knew nothing about from mailorder because
the return policies or support policies are virtually non-existent. As
long as I feel comfortable that I can handle any problems that may arise, I
avoid my local dealer on big ticket items.
Steven,
I both agree and disagree with your position on mail order. I agree in
that everything you say is perfectly reasonable. I disagree in that (well,
at least in my case) by developing a good relationship with a local dealer,
and supporting him, you can normally have him sell to you at mail order
pricing. I have never purchased mail order but frequently will take a mail
order ad to my dealer and ask him to meet it — he always has.
-sja
Steve,
I have never tried asking my local dealer to meet mail-order
prices. I usually assume that the dealer cannot really afford to discount
as much and still offer customers the support they will expect. I have,
however, always bought the computer from the local dealer, because I do
want to be able to have access to repair and service for it. I bought my
2000 through the local dealer on the educational discount plan that CBM
offered awhile back. But I bought the stripped computer with the minimal
options. I then expanded it with products from mail-order as well as with
stuff I had from my old 1000. Occassionally I do buy something from the
dealer to maintain my visibility with them. But when it comes to buying
something that's $300 less through mail-order, then I think I prefer to opt
for the savings. Maybe next time I make a large ticket purchase I will ask
the dealer about meeting the price. If they do, then I will certainly
modify my opinion regarding mail-order purchasing.
Well, I believe strongly in supporting good local dealers, despite the
higher cost. A good dealer deserves a living too.
Key word in above is 'good'.
Sadly… Seattle has NONE.
🙁
–jp–seattle–
I have to chime in here and say *NEVER* use a screwdriver to pry the Agnus
chip out of the socket. You may have been lucky, I know of people who have
broken sockets. The trick with the puller is to read the instructions that
they do not give you. You are not trying to use the tool to pull it out of
the socket, the action is more a squeezing and PUSHING action to get it to
come out. It does take patience but can be done even for a very stubborn
chip. The chip puller was designed because the sockets are so fragile. It
is possible to crack the socket and not know it for a while as things work
their way loose over time. In general, if you can't get it out with the
puller, RUN, don't walk to a service tech to have it done professionally..
John,
In principle I agree with your remarks. I had used th tool
correctly, but no pulling, rocking, pushing, etc. worked. After many tries
the tip of one end of the tweezer broke. I then broke off the other end
and re-bent the remaining ends to make it usable. Still no luck. That
chip seemed like it was "cemented" in place! I was very careful in using
the jeweler's screwdriver to gently pry at each corner a little at a time
until the chip loosened. Then the tweezers finished the job. I did not
damage the socket nor did I damage the chip. I probably was "lucky", but
part of that was also from being careful not to overdo the job and cause
damage. Not necessarily the best or preferred approach, but in the pinch
it worked. The chip puller is badly designed for its task. A better
puller would have been one designed along the lines of a wine bottle cork
puller. It would use the socket as a base to provide resistence against a
central piece which could be levered up with a screw type mechanism. This
would make the extraction relatively easy and safe. Those tweezers are an
accident waiting to happen and could do aas much damage as a poorly applied
screwdriver.
Actually, after I broke one chip puller by trying to adjust the tooth on it,
I found that you could get by with a single paper clip bent in the same
shape as the teeth on the puller to go in and LIFT the chip up. No prying is
done. In your case you were lucky. People in any hurry *WILL* break the
socket. Hence my strong advice to people on letting someone do the job
professionally.
John,
Well, you came up with a neat solution. Wish you had made that
public and I had seen it, may have saved me some time and aggravation!