#Rel 12
11 messages in this thread
Hey guys ! Any idea yet as to when we can expect Release 12 ????? and
especially when it will be available for the SUN SPARC platform ?
We're getting really tired of having to work around Rel 11's PCNFS/XREF
bug. You know, the one that causes 20 minute drawing file load times on
PC's connected to SUN SPARCstations via PCNFS.
Mike:
We have publicly stated our intention to deliver AutoCAD Release 12 for 386
and Sun SPARC in our Q3, that is before November 1992.
Malcolm
Whew! Two years again between releases. I'll bet it will be worth the wait,
too.
Let me put something bluntly, though: With two years between R11 & R12, I
will scream bloody murder if it ships without a proper extention of
VISRETAIN! I'm not kidding; it's that important. We won't be able to use
XREF's if it's not extended to allow one to keep color changes to layers,
period.
Now, since everyone is keeping very tight lips about what's in R12, you may
well have fixed this, and just not bragged about it. If so, please pardon
the flame.
Peter:
Yes, I think you're well on the way to public self flagilation and
matrydom… either way, now, you're gonna get the OMF… if Autodesk
listens… for a cause well executed. If they don't… for making a mess of
yourself on the forum <wide grin>.
Keep up the good work.
The AYATOLLAHYOU
I was thinking of warning Malcom that I'd pay him a personal visit to
complain about VISRETAIN, if that's what it takes. Heck, if it helped, it'd
be more than worth the 2+ hour round trip! <not kidding>
Perhaps I can convince Malcom to come to the SFAUG's demo of WinACAD, and
then the whole user's group can bug him about it; one by one, by….
Peter:
Thanks for your message, I think I got it loud and clear.
I will pass it on to John Lynch, he is the AutoCAD co-General Manager and
is responsible for managing all the good stuff in R12.
I am happy to attend another meeting, but you really need to talk to John.
As of now, I do not know if your request was included, but if it was not, I
will plan to leave town ahead of the announcement, thanks for the warning.
Malcolm
Hehehe. All kidding aside, if it *does* ship without that fix, then my visit
will be to deliver all the letters from the letter writing campaing I start
the day after delivery, personally. The letters will all ask for a R12 c1
bugfix more eagerly than Mark Burns ever did for R11 c3! Expect to see a
thick stack.
I think it's clear to most everyone here on the forum that you and the rest
of Autodesk *really do* listen to your users. I thank you for it, though,
because I don't think it's something that should be taken for granted. It is
still somewhat unusual with large multinational companies. But this is one
time where listening alone won't be good enough. 'nuf said. Now it's time
for me to go bugg John….
Peter – I hate to tell you this, but you're going to have some dissent on
your hands. I for one am not interested in any further bastardization of
External references. They were designed as a means of including a canonical
representation of one drawing, in another. I will instead campaign for
another type of "externally-defined thing" (I can't be more specific than
that, sorry), that will bring all of the functionality that you seek to have
in external references, without making them so complicated that nobody but
you and Mark Burns will know what to do with them.
I'm not interested in making AutoCAD more complex for the sake of complexity
alone. What you and Burns want from external references conflicts with their
very essence (a canonical representation of an external drawing).
I don't want to start a war or raging debate on this here, but I'm telling you
now that I will veheminently oppose any futher hack jobs on this feature, in
favor of a more rational alternative.
-TonyT.
Well, I'm not expecting *everyone* to be on my side, so I don't mind
dissent too much.
I am glad that you see the need for "some sort of thing that behaves
like that", but I question (just playing the devil's advocate) whether
having yet a third type of "block" wouldn't be more confusing than simply
extending VISRETAIN to keep the color changes of the layer settings. I can
live without the linetypes in R12, but I really think that this ability
needs to be in R12, whether it's part of xref's, or some other type of
external thingie.
As for the request interfeering with a canonical representation of
one drawing, it seems to me that meerly changing the color of a layer (to
change their entities appearance from solid to screened, for instance), is a
*lot* less damaging to that cannonical representation than the *current*
provision of COMPLETELY HIDING LAYERS from an xref is. Or is that precicely
what you mean when you say "further bastardization…"?
Yes, I've heard of the original implementation's goal of simply
being an analogy for the pin-bar method of combining files at plot time, but
forget about the *intended* design; what do most of the people who are, or
would use xref's, want/need *now*? I believe strongly that more people would
side with my version than your version. Carefull now, I'm not saying that
yours is wrong. I do indeed like it. I'd love to have both, but right now,
If I have to choose between them, I want VISRETAIN extended.
Yes, I think we need another type of xternal file referencing, but
I'd prefer it to be developed in a longer time frame than what a release 12
feature could offer. If it was said many months ago that the feature set of
R12 was frozen, surely your wish won't happen in R12, eh?
[More]
[Continued]
(Pardon me, people, and Tony, if this sounds like a flame. It's not; I just
feel *very* strongly about this type of control showing up in R12.)
I don't think that the simple change to color settings would be at
all difficult for the existing users. How many people do you see on the
forum complaining "hey, why can someone turn off layers from a drawing of
mine they've xrefed!?". (0) How many times do we see lurkers complaining
"why do my layer property changes to xref'd layers dissappear when I save
the drawing?" (more than I can count).
I do agree with your opinion that there is a need for xref's of the
sort you wish for, but what do we do: take visretain away completely, and
transfer that functionality (and more) to your wish? Why not continue to
extend Xref's, and make the new "external thingie" a *pure* canonical
representation of an external file?
Lastly, we *are* going to see more types of blocks/xrefs in the
future; one of my earlier wishes hit about 4 different enhancements on the
nail, and they were already on the wishlist. You say such changes will make
their use more complicated? True, somewhat, but there are people that desire
that kind of flexability/power. Things like blocks that have a scale factor
relative to whatever size the drawing is plotted at, a way to xref only
portions of external files (for puposes of dealing with *huge* external
files, much in the same way GEO/SQL works), or for intimately twiddling with
the appearance and/or visibility of individual nested entities of external
files. I don't want all of this to appear as soon as R12, but I *do* think
it will come, and will be welcomed.
If it is possible for your proposed "external thingy" to appear in
R12 with controll over color of external layers, and keep the current xref
scheme, than I *fully* support your wish; I think it's a very good concept,
but I don't want to have to put off a fix to VISRETAIN to R13 to accomplish
it!!!!!
Peter – "A third type of block"? Well, that's what they'll view it as, if
you choose to name such a feature that way, but that's not necessarily the
way it would/could/should work. It could, for example, be called "backdrop",
or "background", or what have you, which helps to make the distinction between
it and the other types of complex entities.
I am also not questioning your need for the functionality that you would like
XREF's to provide, I am just saying that XREF's are not the preferred vehicle
to provide that functionality. XREFS are externally defined things that can't
reference local settings. The type of beast that I'd prefer to have for this
type of externally-defined geometry that can create and reference objects in
the target drawing, is preciesely what everyone seems to be trying to use the
XREF for, and I maintain that it wasn't designed with that use in mind, and it
should not be hacked to death in order to achieve that goal.
I don't know much about what is going to be in R12 and what isn't, so I can't
comment on that aspect of the subject.
The real solution to most of these problems will not be realized in R12, and
that has more to do with some fundamental limitations of the current database
architecture that we are hoping R13 will eliminate.
The real solution to this and other problems you people keep hemming and hawing
about<g>, is a database architecture whose scope extends beyond both a physical
and logical "drawing" (e.g, it could encompass an entire project). But you're
not going to see anything like this for some time.
-TonyT.