#Animation:Master specs
32 messages in this thread
You want a features list? Here goes…
Inverse Kinematics
spline models and rendering
spine skeletal, and muscle (morph) motion
"ball and socket" angle definitions
Skinning of hierarchical objects
new Materials editor
channel-based combiners, attributes and specular color
Advanced Decals
Multiple image maps
Cookiecup map/ambiance map/mirror map
Advanced Channel editing (cut and paste)
Animated image maps
Motion constraints
Load/save DXF
Universal undo
Background rendering
Dos/network rendering
raytracing
SGI RGB files
transparency alpha channel
specular highlight size
depth buffer
shadow buffer
soft shadows
depth of field
motion blur
field rendering
channel-based combiners, attributes and specular color
hierchical lights
the SGI and NT versions being worked on right now. These will cost
around $1000, compared to the $800 Win version.
blah blah blah… the list I have is really long. I've pulled out
the significant ones I saw. (the font is really small).
I don't have A:Master, but hope to upgrade soon. I am very
interested in any who have upgraded to A:M or Playmation 2.0, and
their comments.
John, features mean nothing if the program is useless for production.
The true value of any 3D animation system can always be measured by
the quality (and quantity) of the work in the developer's demo reel.
– G
Yost Group
>features mean nothing if the program is useless for production.
Yes, but without features, the production cannot be done. I have no experience
with Animation:Master nor with it's usefulness in production. I was just
telling the things that can be done, like you did when you were releasing R3.
The usefulness is yet to be determined with those who actually use it.
>The true value of any 3D animation system can always be measured by the
quality (and quantity) of the work in the developer's demo reel.<
Not to be picky, but not really. Quantity of work depends on the
number of those who use it, and the length of time they have had to
produce the work. (Like, I believe much of R3's reel was R2
animation, or at least accomplished R2 users who were testing R3.)
Developers (especially small, start-up ones) are more interested in
making it work well than on the volume of work. And the quality I've
seen from some animation released from them is very nice. I haven't
seen any Animation:Master animation, but I seriously doubt that it
will be underwhelming. I don't know of any demo reel though, which
reflects poorly on their promotion plans.
Having said this, Your demo reel is definately more polished and
comprehensive than anything I've seen from Hash. Your demo is a good
representation of R3's capabilities, but I'm sure you don't mean it
to limit ones perception of what R3 can do. Measurement also impiles
being limited to that measurement.
I don't see Animation:Master as a real threat to R3 though. Just a
different niche. R3 renders much faster, and is better in the
industrial market, where characters are not as commonplace.
I do see Animation:Master as a good program to run for anyone
interested in character animation and more organic objects. The
rendering time is much longer, but I think it would take much less
time creating an animation with unsegmented characters in A:M than
with R3. For that kind of production, I would rather the rendering
time to be long, and the ease/flexability of production to be
shorter. One can always buy a faster computer, or another one, but
cloning yourself isn't possible. (unfortunately <g>)
I plan to get both. Neither will satisfy everything right now, it really
depends on what one does.
Please understand that I do not post this in an attempt to downplay 3DS, and
your work. It's just good to see other things are available and how they fit
in with the needs and interests of animators and their clients. I believe 3DS
is a fine product, and is an essential for all but the most specialized PC
animator.
JNJ
All of your points are extremely valid. It's just that I've come to not pay
much attention to anything in this business except moving pictures.
– G
>All of your points are extremely valid. It's just that I've come to not pay
much attention to anything in this business except moving pictures.<
This is understandable. I'm more tool oriented, I guess. Possibly
due to too much legos when I was a kid. <grin>
>>All of your points are extremely valid. It's just that
>> I've come to not pay much attention to anything
>> in this business except moving pictures.
You know, having attended SIGGRAPH, and reading CGW and 3d Artist
there are always all these other products that throw around the
buzzwords that make animators get excited. But there are so _many_
important features of 3D Studio that we know are there and take for
granted, until, while checking out the competition, those features
are nowhere to be found! And inevitably you come to the conclusion
that this new program is nice, and only $500 (or whatever), but it
just won't work for a serious professional. And although they may have
an outstanding video (that necessarily will highlight the features
where the software excels and avoid animation styles where the
software is poor), what about the trouble it took to make that video?
What if modeling is a monumental pain in the neck? What if there's no
undo? What if it crashes all the time, losing your work? And what if
it takes anything short of a Cray about a year to render each frame?
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm running a business here,
and there are no excuses for being late with a project.
Take this as just another complement, but I'm a hard sell on anything
but 3DS. Virtually every obstacle to getting the essence of the job
(modeling/animating) done has been adressed over the 3 releases.
I also admire how you release ONE major upgrade (for charge) that's
usually near perfect; followed by a bug fix (for free) if necessary.
Software with penny ante, 3.1-to-3.2-type upgrades every 2 months is
annoying, damages my confidence in the maker, and makes me feel like
a mark for the publisher (who needs my $49.95 to stay out of chapter
11). I think $500 for your latest and greatest is very fair – I
can't see why everyone doesn't get it immediately… I mean, if you
aren't working commercially, how did you justify coughing up ~$2500
initially; and if you are commercial, $500 is maybe 1/5 of a typical
job. Not bad for a complete, faster upgrade to our prime tool to
making a living in animation.
Sorry for the ramble, but previous comments had me all pumped up!
Interesting rambling, Jim. Good points.
– G
How much trouble would it be to import other programs' file format —
such as Animation:Master's, Real-3D etc.. 3DS has the highest
quality output of any PC-based animation program I have seen, but
there are features in other programs that could be of use as well. I
would like to do dynamic animations with inverse kinematics now, and
if I could do the basic animation keying in a program that supports
these methods and import the file into 3DS for texturing and
rendering, it would be another tool in the box–A high-priced IPAS?
<g>
>How much trouble would it be to import other programs' file format —
such as Animation:Master's …<
I like the idea. I'm not sure how it would be done, but I'd like to
see it. It would be great tide-me-over for R3'rs until an A:M
killing R4.. <g>
I think IK/etc. ipas' would be done before that though. Why add
compatability when you can make your own? It would be better
business to charge $800 for native R3 character animation features.
>> It would be better business to charge $800 for native R3 character
animation features.
If they do everything you need them to do! I have been trying to find
out who's doing what and what to expect in the next few months and so
far I have had no luck.
>I have been trying to find out who's doing what and what to expect in the next
few months and so far I have had no luck.<
Probably typical business secrecy type stuff. I'm trying to be
pretty optimistic. Users like yourself really need these features,
so I'm sure some sharp businessmen are cranking it out. Mabe even
Yost Group themselves. It could help them get rev'd up for R4 way
down the line.
I'm hoping for an NT version, with Char. animation. R3 is really
open to programming, so they should be able to take the time to work
on the platform change, and let others work out the other features
people want.
good luck.
JNJ
We're in the midst of porting our series of 3D file format translators
as IPAS plug-ins. With these, you'll be able to import and export
formats such as Wavefront, Toaster LightWave, Imagine, Topas, and
many others. For more info, call (414) 674-5200 to get on our
mailing list.
Of course, we'd be willing to license these to Autodesk for inclusion
in release 4! 🙂
Sounds great, John. I would be interested in export for Lightwave and Topas as
well. I would have a market for this in the area.
I agree with much of your "rambling". Playmation was really plagued
with bugs and crashes.. I was fortunate enough to complain to the
right person, and get a free $25 bug fix/update. 3DS has always been
very stable.. even an old 1.0 Beta version I saw years ago was solid.
Have you actually used A:M or are you speaking from past playmation
experience/ discussion? I'm very interested in someone doing a fair
test of it in the "real world". There seems to be a real interest in
it's proclaimed capabilities.. is anyone going to step forward and
try it? Or will we just continue "what if"? I think it's around
$800. About 1/4th the cash spent on 3DS and stuff, and probably
1/100th the cost of any other IK program around.
I don't see this as a 3DS vs. Animation:Master thing, but more like
buying two different types of hammers. Each one for a different
purpose. There is some overlap, but really- they're different.
Animation:Master is best suited for character animation, and 3DS
really doesn't seem to do that as well. 3DS has industrial
animation, architechture/manmade objects/logos/etc. down pat.
Animation:Master is pale in comparison with those things. Some can be
done with the other, but it takes more work.
The question I wonder is if Animation:Master is good in what it
proclaims in the real market. Is it worth the money to buy it, and
the time to aptly learn something different? It's definately cheaper
than any "competing" SGI software (which blows it away in price and
performance), and I don't know of any other programs for the PC that
claims to do good/easy/cost effective character animation. Basically,
one must ask "Do I want to do character animation?" If so, how
badly? And will A:M do it right? I don't doubt there is a market
for it.
(Please correct me if I've unfairly summarized 3DS' character
animation ablilties. I know quality works like "Call Waiting" have
been done, but I also think that it took a *ton* of work to do it and
I don't think it would be very cost effective to do that alot.)
Well, enough going's on. I'll step down and wait for someone to take
a swing at it for the rest of the curious lurkers. Or will I have to
do it first? I'm sure someone else's words would hold more weight.
Naaah, I haven't checked it out yet, it sounds like it might be neat.
I was talking about the realm of all 3DS competitors and how you see
what's added (beyond the 3DS feature set) in the new program but
forget what's missing (from the 3DS feature set) until you've bought
it and are doing a project… say, macromodel's ability to do
skinning, but not booleans.
Your point on spline based character stuff is good. I'm in the mode of
waiting to see what IPAS3 developers can add to my toolbox. If that
stuff won't cut it (on character anims) you could use A:M to animate
just the characters and later VP composite them into a 3DS world.
Really, I think IPAS will be the way to go (in 6 months or so) because the
possibilities suggested by HAND, TUBER, and BOUNCE imply some outrageously
sophistocated future routines…
Actually if I am not mistaken, Playmation is either available for the
SGI already, or in the works right now. I don't know if 3ds is
available on any other platform as of yet. I would say that programs
like playmation, etc… are good for first time animators/modlers,
with no initial experience, but 3ds is probally better because it
does have DXF import/export, and IPAS routies, and a bundle of other
things, but if you just want to start doing some animating, 3d
animating, playmation is the thing, and is less expensive..
?
jhon: try working with Hash groups software, you will know what gary
means when he talks about quantity. if a software is so hard to use
and so unpredictable to get consitant results(i.e. similar models
etc.) that the user jumps off a cliff before the project is over,
faster computers wont help much. i think 3ds is the best thing out
there for the money and with the ips3 introduction the sky is the
limmit.(character animation, dynamics, inverse kin.,particle systems
and all…..). give it 6 more months, and you will be blown away with
what will be availible for it. take care ara
>try working with Hash groups software, you will know what gary means when he
talks about quantity. if a software is so hard to use and so unpredictable to
get consitant results(i.e. similar models etc.) that the user jumps off a cliff
before the project is over, faster computers wont help much.<
I currently own, and use Playmation (which is a hash product). I
understand the troubles, but since I made a relatively painless
"fall" off the cliff, I expected others to have a similar
experience. But, I didn't have many preconcieved notions on how it
would work, since I didn't own 3DS, or other real program. (Just
3DWS.) I'll probably have a rougher "fall" learning 3DS. They're
really quite different in doing things. Neither are perfect, it's
just what you learn on. Playmation does have some things that I
thought were stupidly implemented though. I agree to it being
awkward. Things should be better in the third generation Hash
products, but I'm sure they won't be the same as 3DS. These programs
take time to learn.
>give [3DS] 6 more months, and you will be blown away with what will be
availible for it.<
This statement really got me excited about 3DS. It's like a big
lightbulb was turned on.. really. R3 is soo open for development but
I never really thought much would come about other than the cool, but
"typical", explode, etc. things currently being made for it. I'm
seriously looking forward to it! Mabe someone could patch in full
spline support along with all these cool new features.
john: actually, spline base modeling through ipas is being prepared
right now through a 3rd party programmer. i think it should be
availible this summer. there is another comp. doing dynamics which
according to them it should be ready in the next two months. yost and
schriber groups and xaos are also comming up with some real good
things in the next two months. as i said the sky is the limmit.
also i am glad you are doing ok with hash software. i tried it and i
did not like the logic. take care ara
>> You want a features list? Here goes…
Thanks for the list.
>> I don't have A:Master, but hope to upgrade soon.
I don't have it either and don't know if I will go for it.
>> I am very interested in any who have upgraded to A:M
>> or Playmation 2.0, and their comments.
The comments from actual users, especially those doing real (meaning
paid, i.e. $$$) work is what I was after, if possible, if anyone is
actually using it in a commercial setting. Since there has been no
activity (this may be the wrong place also), I am not inclined to
think that it is (yet) being used commercially, very much at least.
If you are out there and doing the above, please raise your hand <g>.
There are few users of Playmation here, let alone Animation:Master.
It's much newer than R3… A couple responses from earlier
playmation discussion revealed at least one dissatisfied customer.
Remember, though, that the user base is small compared to 3DS, and
this really isn't the place to look for them. Many people here are
"to-die-by" Autodesk users, and I understand why. Many don't need
the character abilities offered by Animation:Master and Playmation,
and it would not be worth it for them to buy it, and learn it. For
me, I got it because it was cheap (relatively speaking). Then I
proceded to learn it, and am now in love with splines. I wince at
wireframe stuff now, after enjoying the rubberband like qualities of
my models, with no loss in detail. (But I pay for it when I render.)
I too am interested in a real world evaluation of Animation:Master.
It seems to have all the professional features that my playmation
lacks, but they could be decieving. Even if nobody speaks up about
it, I'll still get it. I'm on top of the learning curve, and still
have some character animation to finish up. A:M will make it much
better.
Hi John,
Recieved Animation:Master yesterday, but have been busy and haven't
installed it yet.
Greg, if you are listening, I haven't forgotten you and I got your
message.
How about some first impressions since this is a upgrade? Beware the
Hash HASP. Yes, now even A:M has the dreaded dongle. Considering the
price, you get what appears to be a full fledged animation software,
less VTR control and Video Post <BG>>. You will still need 3DSr3
video post or some other software like Diaquest's Windows lay off
software to get to TGA's to tape. But to be quite frank, I consider
this an add-on software for character animation, much the same VRLI
VistaPro 3.1 is an incredible add-on for natural looking terrain
fly-thrus and backgrounds.
The documentation is 1000% improved and no information seems to be
missing yet. Included with the software and manauls is a VHS that
has the obligatory this was done with Playmation stuff. The one
really polished piece that I love is "Cool Tools" featuring the
"Hammer" rap, Will Vinton Studios was commissioned to do for Sesame
Street by the Childrens Television Workshop. I do a lot of work for a
public television network and when that piece comes up on Sesame,
everybody in visual range of master control stops and watches it.
What is really amazing, is after the "this was done with Playmation"
stuff there was a full fledged video tutorial on how to use
"Playmation" (the Animation:Master improvements were not covered
because of the time limitation and the fact that this was for
Playmation 2.0 also I believe.). I will say I should have taken that
Evelyn Wood's Speed Video Viewing course, because they managed to
pack a two hour course into about 40 minutes. Don't blink. Thank the
Lord I bought my wife a Sony SLV-750 VHS with a shuttle knob and a
clean frame step (you would think that I was an animator or something
to buy a VHS machine like that for home use?). This was a full course
to get you up and running with Playmation. And yes, the whole
multitask thing of A:M is clear to me now and also why they had such
a strange convention for saving stuff.
We will have to hand it the Hash boys, this is the only successful
animation software that lives on all the major OS's, Amiga, PC, Mac
and SGI. And the amazing thing is, you can pass your work back and
forth between OS's. The other thing I might mention is, if they had
included VTR control and all the associated licensing, programming
hassles and such (meaning a bigger developmental team), it would have
probably pushed the package price to $1,500 or $2,000.
I guess I should get off CI$, install the upgrade and find something
to complain about. I really try and stay away from frays like this,
but I know how you like to start stuff, John <BG>.
Bryce Whiteside
Animation Producer/Consultant
CF/X Image, Inc. at the big red stick animation outpost down south
>>I guess I should get off CI$, install the upgrade and find something to
complain about. I really try and stay away from frays like this, but I know how
you like to start stuff, John <BG>.<<
Yep, you know me. <g> Thanks for jumping in. I'd like to hear about
it, it's compatability with past Playmation files, and if it really
got better over time. IK and such. Is the IK quick? or does it
think about it a bit? Pretty soon, I plan to plunk down some cold
cash myself, and join you. What kind of models/examples are
included?
Well, I know playmation sells for around $300.00, but how much is A:M,
sounds like a nice program to experiment with, and I have a little
cash right now…
Thank You,
Grady O. Williams III
Grady: Animation Master is around $800 or so. You might like it,
but I don't have any personal experience in it. Just in Playmation.
I'm hoping to get it, but I kinda know what to expect. It's pretty
different than 3DS, so be prepared, but I think it would be a pretty
powerful tool. Call the guys at Hash for more info. (206)
750-0042. They should be able to send you some stuff about it.
Bryce:
>> Greg, if you are listening, I haven't forgotten you and I got your message.
I'm always listening! Although a few days late in this case, I just got back
from a trip to Autodesk.
Greg Pyros
What happened to your Mirage Raytracer, or was that not you guys???
Grady O. Williams III
Grady:
No, not us! The Mirage Raytracer was written by Todd Payne, I haven't heard
from him in a while. Anyone know anything?
Greg Pyros
OOps, my fault… I thought it was you guys… I got a book from you guys
about 3ds studio, and sent off for the Mirage Raytracer, and I just thought I'd
bother you about it…
GRady O. Williams III
>> anyone heard from …<<
Mirage – aptly named…
Last I spoke with someone there, "a couple more weeks, don't hold your breath".
That was a couple weeks ago, and thusly it should probably be only a couple
more weeks <g>. From the messages I read preceding the books release I thought
it _came_ with the book.
Of course, all is forgiven if its cool when it finally arives…
Mark