#Busted Buster
26 messages in this thread
I have a good one regarding my ' g'Gold Service contract. I have a
4000 with the screwed up Buster Chip that C= sold me. Will C= fix
this for me? I don't want to buy any extra hardware just to get the
buster chip fixed. C= should fix this and stand by their Warranties.
If you buy a C= or DKB 4091 within the warranty period of your 4000,
Commodore will update the motherboard/daughtercard for free. Except
that the motherboards have been on backorder for three months. But I
would assume that you could call your dealer and place an order for
an A4091 and motherboard and pay for the 4091 once the motherboard is
in…
Actually, C=> has not officially stated that they would honor the
Buster chip fix if you buy the DKB version of the 4091 controller.
Even though the board itself says it's from C=> if SMG know that the
box is DKB they will not honor this fix since C=> has not given any
written instructions stating so. Dale, if you have any inside
knowledge into this one, let me know since my local dealers have been
given me the run around about this for the longest time. Seems
nobody wants to take care of business anymore and I'm afraid of having
to buy the C=> made 4091 since I understand that the DKB version has
a cleaner design. Catya,
I asked someone in C= who is somewhat responsible for service issues.
I'm not sure how I could get a more official answer. Of course, when
it comes to Commodore, about non-technical issues, you can usually
get as many different answers as you like by just asking multiple
people (or asking the same person on different weeks).
The thing for you to do is to write a letter to Commodore asking for
a letter from Commodore stating that they will upgrade your
motherboard and CPU board under warranty (i.e., free) with your
purchase of a DKB 4091. Then take their response to your dealer.
In theory sounds like a proper diplomatic response from C=>, at least
is better than no response at all. Do you have any specifics
contacts as far as to whom I should direct the letter to. BTW, when
I spoke with SMG, I also suggested what if I got a letter from C=>
stating that the fix would be covered… the response from SMG,
unless the letter is sent to SMG, the fix would still not be
honored. Seems SMG would rather have an official position from C=>
stating that DKB 4091 is covered than to have to honor the upgrade on
an individual basis. Catya,
A letter from C= is a letter from C= and is no less "official" because
of who it is addressed to.
I'm not sure who to address your letter to. I used to remember the name
of the VP of Customer Satisfaction, but I don't think the person or
position exists any more.
— Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
— INTERNET:dale@iam.com
yeh, I know they will fix it IF i pay them money for a product I DON'T want,
and WAIT MONTHS and MONTHS for the backorder on motherboards. That really
didn't appeal to me, and my warranty has expired. So, If commodore ever wants
me to buy some of their equipment ever again, they will have to fix the
defective computer they sold me, no strings attached.
rich
Commodore doesn't give a hoot if you "buy any of their equipment ever
again."
Get used to it. 🙂
Really, Commodore's position on this isn't *that* unreasonable. If
Commodore starts selling A4000s with 3.1, there isn't going to be a free
upgrade for everyone with 3.0. Why should everyone get a free upgrade to
-11 Busters? Bugs are fixed in 3.1, just like they are in -11. How are
they any different?
"they will have to fix the defective computer they sold me"
What is defective about it? If you aren't using any boards with Zorro-III
DMA, nothing is defective about it. Even if you are, how is this any
different from the OS version? Or from the revisions auto makers
incorporate into new models? You think they don't fix bugs? They find
that some part breaks too easily, so they strengthen it, etc. Do you
think everyone with last year's model gets the new part? Hell no.
Nothing is wrong with A4000s with the -09 Busters except that Zorro-III
DMA doesn't work. The outside of the box doesn't say "Includes Zorro-III
(with DMA)" in big letters. The 4000 substantially functions as
advertised. And for a specific function which is busted, they'll fix it in
free in the first year when you show that you need it fixed to use it, not
to say to yourself that it is fixed.
— Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
— INTERNET:dale@iam.com
True, I'm not currently using the Zorro III DMA. I shouldn't have to
buy a certain piece of hardware to get the ability to use Zorro III
DMA. Commodore doesn't have a mouse on the outside of the box
either, but if the mouse port didn't work I'm sure C= would be on
shaky ground by saying 'it's not advertised on the box, so we don't
have to fix it'. Let's face it. This is just the latest screw up in
a long line of screw ups C= has had with it's user community. I paid
extra money for that 'Gold Service' contract, only to find out it's
absolutely worthless. C= will not be able to stay in business as a
Computer manufacturer, and I seriously doubt that their GAME console
will stand up to the newer consoles coming out. It will be
technically inferior as well as being sold by a company whose lack of
common sense, stupidity, and greed go to the very top.
whew! my spleen feels good again!
rich
"Really, Commodore's position on this isn't *that* unreasonable. If
Commodore starts selling A4000s with 3.1, there isn't going to be a
free upgrade for everyone with 3.0. Why should everyone get a free
upgrade to -11 Busters? Bugs are fixed in 3.1, just like they are in
-11. How are they any different?"
Bugs in software and bugs in hardware is comparing apples to oranges
Dale. With software, and especially 3.0, most people knew that it
was a pre-release and was bound to have a few bugs. But most of the
bugs in 3.0 didn't cause major problems, and eventually most 4000
owners will be able to upgrade to 3.1 for probably a very reasonable
cost.
But the -09 Buster problem is a different story. CBM probably knew
there were problems with the -09 Buster even before the 4000 was
released. I even remember people asking about 3000 Buster problems a
few years ago. But they let people believe that there were no
problems with the hardware right up until the time they were forced
to admit it. Even then, they were reluctant to supply the
motherboards and 3.1 processor boards even if you purchased one of
their 4091's.
So the guy doesn't purchase a Zorro-III card right now, and so he
really doesn't need the upgraded Buster. But what if he decides to
install some 3rd party card in the future that requires the Zorro-III
DMA? The company of the card can't do anything because it's not their
problem. And, like you said, CBM doesn't give a hoot either.
"The outside of the box doesn't say "Includes Zorro-III (with DMA)" in
big letters. The 4000 substantially functions as advertised. And for
a specific function which is busted, they'll fix it in free in the
first year when you show that you need it fixed to use it, not to say
to yourself that it is fixed."
Come on Dale, DMA has been working fine with the Zorro-II bus, and
probably of the Zorro-I bus for all I know. Are you trying to say that
if you buy a 4000 with Zorro-III then you can't expect DMA to
function properly? Even though it probably wasn't printed on the box,
CBM did advertise it as having a Zorro-III bus, and people would
expect a functioning bus controller chip to handle the DMA from that
bus.
If CBM thinks the Amiga users are fanantics, I shudder to think what
the Mac community would have done to Apple if they had pulled the
same shananigans. They would have torn them to pieces and left Apple
to the buzzards.
3.0 is usable. Very. If there never was a 3.1, you could continue to
use 3.0 for a longgg time without too many problems. The busted
buster is usable. Probably 90% of A4000s will ever have a Zorro-III
DMA card in them. So why should you force Commodore to upgrade much
more than the 10% of machines that need the upgrade?
Commodore is a business. A cheap one at that. Commodore is trying to
cut it's losses. I think that it did a decent job of compremising
between what they would have liked to have done (not paid one red
cent), and being fair to customers.
By the way, if you pay to have the upgrade done because it is out of
warranty or you didn't buy a 4091, the motherboard swap only costs $200.
Admitedly, it'd be nice to deal with a business that placed fairness
to customers as its number one priority and always ate whatever cost
that might create. As someone who bought a 4000 with busted buster
myself, I understand your sentiments. But I knew what I was buying
into when I bought from Commodore… 🙂
I'd like to know who and where is charging US$200.00 for the
motherboard swap, if so, sign me up in a heartbeat for the upgrade.
I'd much prefer to pay for the board swap than to deal with all this
4901 BS. At $200.00 the change is reasonable, SMG, OTOH, quoted me a
price of $625.00 with my board as a trade in. Catya,
Software Hut. Though I may have been told that $200 was the after-
warranty price if I bought a 4091 and I don't know that I pushed on
whether that included labor.
— Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
— INTERNET:dale@iam.com
I'll get in contact with them, although if C=> is out of boards, I
can't imgaine where they are getting theirs from. Catya,
I already said that they don't have any boards and haven't for three
months. You asked what the price was and I said $200. Same as asking
me what the price on a 1942 is… 🙂
So is it good advice for customers to wait a year before buying any
new product from C=, in order to give them time to fix the bugs?
Hah, it is good advice when buying anything from ANYONE, software,
hardware, cars, you name it. The number of examples boggles the mind.
It depends on your needs. When I see a wonderful new car, I think
"hmmm… do I want that beautiful machine now, when I know it is
going to have bugs to work out, or do I want to wait for next year's
model (or two years) for them to have improved it?"
If you need the sexiest now, buy it now and put up with the problems.
If you need reliability more, buy a plainer machine.
I respect your reasonable opinion of how Commodore has dealt with
customers… I, however, do not share your opinion. C=Express (SMG)
has had a 3000T of mine for nearly 6 months now… "Still waiting for
a motherboard," I'm told. It may be that legal action may be the
only way this Commodore customer will even see his equipment again,
let alone having a positive attitude for them.
You probably do share my opinion. I think the repair and warranty
situation is horrible.
My statement was that their *policy* appeared to be reasonable, in
response to a statement that the policy on A4000 Buster problems was
horrible.
Clearly, no matter how reasonable the policies might be, if service parts
are unavailable and machines are kidnapped for six months, the
implementation of the policies stinks.
— Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
— INTERNET:dale@iam.com
"3.0 is usable. Very. If there never was a 3.1, you could continue
to use 3.0 for a longgg time without too many problems. The busted
buster is usable. Probably 90% of A4000s will ever have a Zorro-III
DMA card in them. So why should you force Commodore to upgrade much
more than the 10% of machines that need the upgrade?"
True, 3.0 is very usable and suprisingly stable for a beta OS.
However, I still feel the comparison between the OS upgrade and
hardware defects is too different to make it fair. Most users knew
that 3.0 was a Beta release before they purchased the 4000, and also
knew that an upgrade to 3.x would probably be fairly cheap and
painless. No big deal. But the Busted Buster problem didn't start
really showing up until the 4091 was released, and then CBM had no
choice but to admit to a 4000 design defect.
It wouldn't be so bad if it was just the 4091 that was being affected,
but it's not. Some of the new graphics cards can take advantage of
Zorro-III DMA, and I believe GVP's PhonePak will use Zorro-III DMA if
its available. What if someone comes out with a DSP board, could be
that it would take advantage of Zorro-III DMA as well.
"By the way, if you pay to have the upgrade done because it is out of
warranty or you didn't buy a 4091, the motherboard swap only costs
$200. Admitedly, it'd be nice to deal with a business that placed
fairness to customers as its number one priority and always ate
whatever cost that might create. As someone who bought a 4000 with
busted buster myself, I understand your sentiments. But I knew what
I was buying into when I bought from Commodore… :-)"
Yep, $200 is probably a reasonable cost, but thats not the point. CBM
developed a computer (4000) that had Zorro-III slots, and most people
expected the DMA to function normally. It didn't, so CBM should have
allowed a motherboard swap on a request basis to make things right.
It would have gone a long way in keeping the 4000 owners happy,
considering the other problems 4000 owners have had to put up with.
If I see a posting that "This will be the last Amiga I will ever
own", it doesn't surprise me in the least. CBM hasn't done much to
keep 4000 owners happy and shows how much they really don't care
about their customers. Sure, I like my 4000 and the AGA Chipset, but
all the fancy hardware in the world doesn't mean much if the company
doesn't stand behind the product.
3.0 isn't a beta release.
>It would have gone a long way in keeping the 4000 owners happy
That's the part that's not sinking in. C='s mission is to make money, not
to make anyone but Irv and Ali happy. If C= decides that the motherboard
swaps will cost more money than they will earn (in goodwill, future sales,
or whatever), it won't do free motherboard swaps.
If I ran C=, I'd run it differently. I tend to believe that customers
need to be made happy and that, in the long run, that is worth most any
cost.
This is the US in the 90's. Complaining that a corporate entity has
no feelings for its customers is pretty silly. Get used to it. To
most government and corporate entities, you are a meaningless number
or a wallet to be raped.
Uhm, with a government, you have little or no choice about your purchase. With
computer companies, there's plenty of choices.
I don't remember what I said that you are responding to…
— Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
— INTERNET:dale@iam.com
The fun thing about this is that I don't reacll too many ZIII-DMA
questions until the 4091 surfaced. Heck, the 3000's buster was even
worse than the 4000's. It hated certain ZII devices (PhonePak,
anyone?).
You can't test for bugs in a bus controller until something comes
along that actually _uses_ the features the Bus is supposed to have.
Me, I'm going to check my Buster rev as soon as I can.
Good answer. Haynie complained several times that he wished he'd had
the resources to build some prototype Z-III cards for testing
purposes…